Christians - priesthood authority

[Mike182]

But perhaps you would like to adress other priesthood authorities.

ok, what is the role of a priest?

 

[Aqualung]

Well, some of the things they can do is seal marriages for time and eternity, and seal children to their parents for the same length of time; give the gift of the holy ghost with the laying on of hands, and give blessings by the same manner; administer the sacrament; that's all I can think of off the top of my head...

 

[Mike182]

Well, some of the things they can do is seal marriages for time and eternity, and seal children to their parents for the same length of time; give the gift of the holy ghost with the laying on of hands, and give blessings by the same manner; administer the sacrament; that's all I can think of off the top of my head...

well you see, we are back to square one, because i believe that any true member of the christian faith can do these things.

so this is where you pull out some verses, i say why i dont think they mean what you think they mean, we have a debate, and walk both walk away again

like i said, i think it best to simply agree to disagree

but i did enjoy this debate, you are a good debator and i liked reading your arguments, they are well written and well structured, and i am happy to admit they challenged me a bit

all the best

C_P

 

[Aqualung]

well you see, we are back to square one, because i believe that any true member of the christian faith can do these things.

so this is where you pull out some verses, i say why i dont think they mean what you think they mean, we have a debate, and walk both walk away again

like i said, i think it best to simply agree to disagree

but i did enjoy this debate, you are a good debator and i liked reading your arguments, they are well written and well structured, and i am happy to admit they challenged me a bit

all the best

C_P

Perhaps.

 

[Scott1]

and my point is that through prayer, and love for God, and the deeds of others, we are all also selected to be apart of jesus's church, and as such we can baptise others into faith.

I do agree that we are all part of the Church... Jesus Christ is the one whom the Father anointed with the Holy Spirit and established as priest, prophet, and king. The whole People of God participates in these three offices of Christ and bears the responsibilities for mission and service that flow from them.

.... BUT... my interpretation of Scripture shows that a more formal dimension of what it means to be a priest was evident from the begining: St. Paul said to his disciple Timothy: "I remind you to rekindle the gift of God that is within you through the laying on of my hands" (2 Tim 1:6), and "If any one aspires to the office of bishop, he desires a noble task." (1 Tim 3:1) To Titus he said: "This is why I left you in Crete, that you amend what was defective, and appoint presbyters in every town, as I directed you" (Titus 1:5).

So, it is clear to me that there were specific roles that men would play in the leadership of the Church... it was not "all believers" who could spread the word in a normative sense... I am sure there were occasions where there were no presbyters available and lay people performed baptism and communion.... but this was the exception, not the rule. Catholics believe the ministerial priesthood differs in essence from the common priesthood of the faithful because it confers a sacred power for the service of the faithful. The ordained ministers exercise their service for the People of God by teaching, divine worship and pastoral governance.

I know you don't agree, but I hope this helps you understand why we do.

 

[Snowbear]

Well, some of the things they can do is seal marriages for time and eternity, and seal children to their parents for the same length of time; give the gift of the holy ghost with the laying on of hands, and give blessings by the same manner; administer the sacrament; that's all I can think of off the top of my head...

Wow - I never imagined it takes a priest to administer the gift of the Holy Spirit. I thank God that He gives that gift freely and directly without the intervention of another human! This goes for His blessings as well.

For any of these duties, where is the scripture that says only priests can perform these things? Is a child born to parents who don't go to a priest to have that child sealed (whatever that means?) to them somehow becomes not that parents' child? I don't get it

 

[Katzpur]

Wow - I never imagined it takes a priest to administer the gift of the Holy Spirit. I thank God that He gives that gift freely and directly without the intervention of another human! This goes for His blessings as well.

StewpidLoser,

(I hope you know that every time I type your name, I feel guilty! )

First of all, I would like to ask you what you think this passage from Acts means:

Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. (Acts 8:17-19)

Second, I'd like to point out that there is a difference between experiencing the influence of the Holy Ghost and having the "Gift of the Holy Ghost," (i.e. the promise of His constant companionship). The Holy Ghost is a sanctifier, a revelator, a teacher and a comforter. He can make Himself known to anybody at any time for any righteous purpose. But, one only receives the Gift of the Holy Ghost after having been baptized and by the laying on of hands. It is a spiritual gift, and it's only given by one who has the authority to do so (as the previous passage explains).

 

[Aqualung]

For any of these duties, where is the scripture that says only priests can perform these things? Is a child born to parents who don't go to a priest to have that child sealed (whatever that means?) to them somehow becomes not that parents' child? I don't get it

No. But if someone does not get sealed in a temple to their spouse, they won't get to spend time and eternity as husband and wife, but that bond will end at death. If a child is born into this eternal marriage, they are sealed in like manner automatically. But for an example my parents aren't members of the church, so of course they haven't been sealed to each other, so I wasn't born into that sort of thing. One day, though, I hope that I will be sealed to them, so I can spend eternity with them, as well.

 

[Snowbear]

(I hope you know that every time I type your name, I feel guilty! )

Somehow, I don't believe you... The smiley grin gives the impression that you take pleasure in typing that.

First of all, I would like to ask you what you think this passage from Acts means:

Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. (Acts 8:17-19).

I think that is a passage taken out of context. I think it means that in that particular case, Peter and John were sent to give them the gift they were praying for, just as a "mere" disciple did to Saul when God told him to (Acts 9).

No hand laying was needed for those receiving that same gift on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2). How about John and Peter's prayer that resulted in multitudes being filled with the Holy Spirit, without any hand laying involved ( Acts 4:23-31)?

Second, I'd like to point out that there is a difference between experiencing the influence of the Holy Ghost and having the "Gift of the Holy Ghost," (i.e. the promise of His constant companionship). The Holy Ghost is a sanctifier, a revelator, a teacher and a comforter. He can make Himself known to anybody at any time for any righteous purpose. But, one only receives the Gift of the Holy Ghost after having been baptized and by the laying on of hands. It is a spiritual gift, and it's only given by one who has the authority to do so (as the previous passage explains).

Well, I guess here I just disagree with your church's doctrine. I believe that the Gift of the Holy Spirit/Ghost is as Jesus promised in John chapter 16: "13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you."

I believe His message is to all of us, not just to those 12 disciples.

 

[Snowbear]

No. But if someone does not get sealed in a temple to their spouse, they won't get to spend time and eternity as husband and wife, but that bond will end at death. If a child is born into this eternal marriage, they are sealed in like manner automatically. But for an example my parents aren't members of the church, so of course they haven't been sealed to each other, so I wasn't born into that sort of thing. One day, though, I hope that I will be sealed to them, so I can spend eternity with them, as well.

Huh. Too bad.

Here again I guess we disagree... I believe that in God's eternal presence (aka Heaven), all true believers will get to be together with Him and earthly things like marriage just won't matter any more.

 

[Aqualung]

Huh. Too bad.

Here again I guess we disagree... I believe that in God's eternal presence (aka Heaven), all true believers will get to be together with Him and earthly things like marriage just won't matter any more.

The won't matter anymore? Then why did God make such a big deal of making sure that earthly marriages were so respected? Why did he place so much stress and importance on earthly marriages, if for the rest of eternity they just don't matter?

 

[Scott1]

The won't matter anymore? Then why did God make such a big deal of making sure that earthly marriages were so respected? Why did he place so much stress and importance on earthly marriages, if for the rest of eternity they just don't matter?

What importance would your husband/wife be in the precense of God? Not putting down earthly marriage (of course) but it would be like wondering where your penny is when you have a billion dollars in front of you. Just wondering what purpose marriage would have in heaven?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Don't forget the Orthodox. And, as Scott suggested, the Lutheran church I grew up in would also agree. I believe, though am not certain, that the Anglicans would also.

James

The Anglican Bishops have the same Apostolic succession as the Catholics, and so through the English or Scottish succession, do most other Churches attached to the Anglican Communion.

Terry______________________________
Blessed are the gentle, they shall inherit the land

 

[Scott1]

The Anglican Bishops have the same Apostolic succession as the Catholics, and so through the English or Scottish succession, do most other Churches attached to the Anglican Communion.

We don't believe so, but thanks for the clarification.....

 

[Aqualung]

What importance would your husband/wife be in the precense of God? Not putting down earthly marriage (of course) but it would be like wondering where your penny is when you have a billion dollars in front of you. Just wondering what purpose marriage would have in heaven?

The importance to family is second only to the importance of God. It's in your families that you learn the most, and grow the most. Why should you not be able to continue that learning and growing in heaven? Sure, heaven will be infinitely greater than earth, but infinitely greater still if you have your family there with you. Then, if you have a spouse, you could have spirit children when you are in heaven, and perhaps then do what God did for his spirit children (you and I).

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

We don't believe so, but thanks for the clarification.....

You seem to believe so when Priests move between the faiths.

All the Bishops that became Anglican on the break from Rome were of course Catholic Bishops. By the time many were excomunicated by Rome, The succession had already been passed on.

But of course you won't Agree, Fortunately It is how God views it that matters most.

Terry
_____________________________
Blessed are the gentle, they shall inherit the land

 

[Scott1]

The importance to family is second only to the importance of God.

OK... I guess we just view God differently... but we knew that already.

It's in your families that you learn the most, and grow the most.

I don't agree... but I see your point.

Why should you not be able to continue that learning and growing in heaven? Sure, heaven will be infinitely greater than earth, but infinitely greater still if you have your family there with you. Then, if you have a spouse, you could have spirit children when you are in heaven, and perhaps then do what God did for his spirit children (you and I).

Again... I don't agree... to see the face of God and be in his presence (we believe) is a joy beyond imagination.... families and any other human constructs will be of no consequence to us in heaven... but it is great to learn about your view of heaven, thank you!

 

[Aqualung]

OK... I guess we just view God differently... but we knew that already.

Yeah, I guess so.

Again... I don't agree... to see the face of God and be in his presence (we believe) is a joy beyond imagination.... families and any other human constructs will be of no consequence to us in heaven... but it is great to learn about your view of heaven, thank you!

I agree that it would be a joy beyond imagination. It will be awesome. But just because it's beyond imagination doesn't mean that there isn't the greater joy - the joy of being able to share that with your family.

 

[Scott1]

You seem to believe so when Priests move between the faiths.

They go through the same ceremony for Holy Orders that every other person does... not sure what you mean.

All the Bishops that became Anglican on the break from Rome were of course Catholic Bishops. By the time many were excomunicated by Rome, The succession had already been passed on.

I don't view it that way... and I think it is a bit too complicated for this thread... but again, thanks for helping me understand your views on this matter.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

The importance to family is second only to the importance of God. It's in your families that you learn the most, and grow the most. Why should you not be able to continue that learning and growing in heaven? Sure, heaven will be infinitely greater than earth, but infinitely greater still if you have your family there with you. Then, if you have a spouse, you could have spirit children when you are in heaven, and perhaps then do what God did for his spirit children (you and I).

I think the LDS have a marvelous system of support for families, and it seems to work better than in other Christian Churches.
However I do not believe families continue in Heaven as you describe.
I believe we return to God and all else become of little or no importance compared to our relationship in God, it is a moving on in every sense of the word.

Terry____________________
Blessed are the gentle, they shall inherit the land