Christians or Former Christians: Did Hell Influence Your Conversion?

[Quiddity]

First of all my friend,....please be assured that I have had a committed, fervent heart for Jesus for many years. Just because a person doubts and looks for answers to very confusing and conflicting doctrine does not mean my heart has not been open to the person of Jesus.

Just wanted to note that very few people in RF doubt this...

 

[Booko]

It matters to me what came first as I imagine it matters to Zoroastrians. If Zoroaster wrote the doctrine of a Savior for mankind born of a virgin first, how do we know which one to believe? Maybe they are right and Christianity is wrong or the copy cat. How as fallible human beings are we to know which story is true?

Why can't they both be correct and no one be a copy cat?

I find this logic very interesting. If God has a "knack" for grabbing existing ideologies and buiding upon them....how do you know Mohammed and Islam isn't the religion to follow then? Islam is an Abrahamic religion....If God builds upon other ideas, why not Islam?

Well, you probably know my answer to this already...and you didn't address the question to me either.

 

[lunamoth]

Hi Buttercup,

First, I really admire the honest questioning you have been doing about this topic. If I believed that God would send someone to eternal torment for not correctly choosing a correct set of beliefs, such a God would not be worthy of my worship: he would be a monster.

I'm sure you know by now that there are branches of Christianity that do not teach or preach the idea of 'believe or burn,' or even 'believe or experience whatever-our-version-of-hell-is.' I think perhaps you've read my posts on this, and I am not some kind of loner, heretical Christian (hehe, at least not in the Episcopal Church). My beliefs are rather standard progressive-mainstream fare. So, what I'm wondering at this point is what you think of progressive Christian theologies that don't view hell as eternal torment, or don't believe that someone who seeks God would end up cut off from Him simply for not accepting the dogma of their church.

There is a very large body of liberal/progressive theology and respected theologians out there, not that you should take their word for anything. But, you should not feel so restricted in your search or your investigation into the meanings of 'hell.'

As to whether hell played a role in my choosing to be a Christian, in a way yes. Certainly not fear of the burning torment hell, but because I view hell as distance from God, turning down His offer of love, it is the flip side of this to turn to God out of love. So, choosing God/His love vs. hell/turning down His love (even though it rains down on me whether I am oblivious to it, or grateful for it.

Sorry this is so poorly written; I hope it makes some sense. I'm still kind of brain dead. If you have any questions about my beliefs please feel free to ask.

luna

 

[Buttercup]

Why can't they both be correct and no one be a copy cat?

They both very well could be correct. Who knows? That's part of my problem with religion in general these days. There's so many to choose from and many preach hell as a place where unbelievers go. So who is right? I find it hard to believe they are all right. Or perhaps none of them are right?

My thoughts are leaning these days toward the thought that we don't know a dang thing about God really.

 

[Buttercup]

Hi Buttercup,

First, I really admire the honest questioning you have been doing about this topic. If I believed that God would send someone to eternal torment for not correctly choosing a correct set of beliefs, such a God would not be worthy of my worship: he would be a monster.

Well, thanks Laurie. You have no idea how hard it is to find a Christian who is willing to talk at length about this subject. Most Christians get very uncomfortable or...they insinuate that you, "just don't have enough faith" when you question doctrine.

I'm sure you know by now that there are branches of Christianity that do not teach or preach the idea of 'believe or burn,' or even 'believe or experience whatever-our-version-of-hell-is.' I think perhaps you've read my posts on this, and I am not some kind of loner, heretical Christian (hehe, at least not in the Episcopal Church). My beliefs are rather standard progressive-mainstream fare. So, what I'm wondering at this point is what you think of progressive Christian theologies that don't view hell as eternal torment, or don't believe that someone who seeks God would end up cut off from Him simply for not accepting the dogma of their church.

Of course I think it sounds lovely....but then right after that I wonder where they could get the idea that there is no hell? Are you guys reading the same bible?

Sorry this is so poorly written; I hope it makes some sense. I'm still kind of brain dead. If you have any questions about my beliefs please feel free to ask.
luna

It's not poorly written at all and I always appreciate your willingness to talk.

 

[lunamoth]

Well, thanks Laurie. You have no idea how hard it is to find a Christian who is willing to talk at length about this subject. Most Christians get very uncomfortable or...they insinuate that you, "just don't have enough faith" when you question doctrine.

You're welcome.

Of course I think it sounds lovely....but then right after that I wonder where they could get the idea that there is no hell? Are you guys reading the same bible?

Yes, I we are reading the same Bible. Reading always involves simultaneous interpreting, and when you're talking about something as rich as the Bible, a sacred book never intended to be read literally, it's not difficult to believe that different folks would have different understandings. For example, wherever in the Gospels Jesus seems to be referring to hell or condemnation, I see Him talking about 1) the life we are living right now, not the next life and/or 2) the 'gnashing of teeth' kind of language to be metaphoric for the agnony we feel in separation from God and each other: alienation from our true nature. Again, this is not fringe thinking in Christian theology, even though it is not what you might learn in Southern Baptist and some other denominations.

It's not poorly written at all and I always appreciate your willingness to talk.

Thank you. I enjoy reading your posts and ideas as well.

luna

 

[Buttercup]

Yes, I we are reading the same Bible. Reading always involves simultaneous interpreting, and when you're talking about something as rich as the Bible, a sacred book never intended to be read literally, it's not difficult to believe that different folks would have different understandings. For example, wherever in the Gospels Jesus seems to be referring to hell or condemnation, I see Him talking about 1) the life we are living right now, not the next life and/or 2) the 'gnashing of teeth' kind of language to be metaphoric for the agnony we feel in separation from God and each other: alienation from our true nature. Again, this is not fringe thinking in Christian theology, even though it is not what you might learn in Southern Baptist and some other denominations.

Does your denomination think it's fine to be of any religion then? Or none? There is no final judgement?

 

[Katzpur]

Well, thanks Laurie. You have no idea how hard it is to find a Christian who is willing to talk at length about this subject. Most Christians get very uncomfortable or...they insinuate that you, "just don't have enough faith" when you question doctrine.

Hi, Rhonda.

I've been away from the computer for most of the day (even though it appeared as if I'd been here all along), so I've missed a lot of the last few pages of posts. And I'm heading off for bed right now. I just want you to know that I really, really, really admire you for having the courage to question what doesn't feel right to you. You're going to end up stronger and more committed to whatever path you end up taking by being willing to being open to the possibility that you haven't been on the right path so far.

Of course I think it sounds lovely....but then right after that I wonder where they could get the idea that there is no hell? Are you guys reading the same bible?

It wouldn't matter whether they were reading the same Bible or not. The Bible is a great source for truth, but it's not perfect, and it's not complete. Furthermore, it doesn't even claim to be.

 

[lunamoth]

Does your denomination think it's fine to be of any religion then? Or none? There is no final judgement?

The Episcopalian tradition does not include any deeply etched doctrines about hell; you would find individuals who believed the whole range of things from a literal burning hell to no hell at all (guess which end of the spectrum I'm on). There is also no doctrine about pluralism (for or against): I specifically asked a priest about this once.

You might be surprised to learn that the Catholic Church does not condemn people to hell for not being Catholics. Certainly the Episcopal Church does not.

Is it fine to be any religion? Well, I assume most Episcopalians choose Christianity for a reason. It's not a matter of saying that any other religion is 'as good' as Christianity; that's simply asking the wrong question IMO. I can only speak for myself and also say that my views are not atypical or heretical, and I certainly do not believe that Gandhi is in hell because he was not a Christian. But again, I do not think of hell as a physcial place in the next life. It is NOT heretical or damning to be of another religion or denomination (or none, for that matter); heretical can only be defined as holding a partial truth, an inadequate truth, within a religion.

Yes, it is part of Episcopal doctrine that there is a 'final judgement,' but this is not further defined. It can mean lots of different things. I personally do not view it as being judged for my beliefs during this lifetime at some point at the end of or after this life.

 

[gnostic]

Hell had actually made me not to convert.

When I was in my late teen, a Christian wanting me to convert, and said that I will go to hell if I didn't. At that time, it sounded like nothing more than trying to frighten me into converting, so I didn't convert. I thought it was absolutely unfair for a good non-Christian to burn in hell, as nothing more than scare-tactics. It make Christianity off-putting.

I still think this way, but since meeting more Christians on the Internet, I realise that not all Christians think in this way.

 

[lilithu]

As you were contemplating becoming a Christian, did the thought of ending up in Hell influence your decision to become a Christian?

Was part of the reason you converted to Christianity because you were fearful of being sent to Hell if you didnt accept these teachings?

I know for many of you this will be a hard question to answer because youve been a Christian so long you cant remember. All I ask is for you to take a truthful look at your reasons for becoming a Christian and answer if the fear of Hell was one of them.

Poll to follow......Thank you!

Well you asked "former Christians" too:

Yes, Hell did influence my "conversion."
The doctrine of Hell is the reason why I left Christianity.

I could not worship a God who would send creatures so much weaker than him to Hell. It's not that I stopped believing that God. I just decided that He wasn't worthy of worship/love, even if that meant that I would end up in Hell.

Since then I have learned of many Christians who do not believe that God is going to send people to Hell. If I had known that at the time, maybe I would still be Christian. Who knows?

 

[roli]

Well you asked "former Christians" too:

Yes, Hell did influence my "conversion."
The doctrine of Hell is the reason why I left Christianity.

Jesus did not preach turn or burn,with no LOVE,He simply expressed that unless you repent (turn from your sin) you will likewise perish.
He does describe what separation from God is going to be like.many times,throughout the word,we are just focusing so much on where and not why.
Why would God send us away to "a place", to be separated from him.
That is the question that should be asked, "sin,disbelief, rebellion etc"

Our Great Misconception
Always blame shift on someone or somethingelse avoids us taking ownership for our choices.
Is it him that send us to hell,gheena, shoel ???
Or our sinful ,disobedient,selfish,arrogant,proud selves that will direct us there.

Does the law send the criminal to jail,execution etc or does he choose his destiny.
The laws are their to keep us within boundaries,they don't specifically send us to jail.
Could you see the criminal proudfully screaming after his conviction,I don't believe jail or the chair,the judge is insensitive,if a judge would send me to the chair ,he's not worthy of my praise or respect, lol!!!!!!

We all broke God's law unless we repent,place our trust in and appropriate the work of the cross and the sacrifice that was made,God can not recieve us unto himself.
God is so Holy by his own nature,He can't allow sinful flesh into the kingdom of heaven,but is forced by His nature and our free will to reject that which manifests sin

We think we can disbelieve or discount this and that and we will tell God how it is on judgement day,You were on fair,Ithought you were a God of Love etc.
I mean, come on ,he sent his only Son to die a horrific death to pay for and forgive mankind their sin, all we have to do is accept and believe and He will confirm and varify what He says is true by His Spirit, does that not give any indication his mercy,and love so many refute or seem to confuse.
The bible says every mouth will be silenced and all the world become guilty before God
It amazes me to no end how some can think like the song by Frank Santra"I did it my way" and have it their way on that day.

Regardless of whether one spends eternity in HELL the pit , refuse,abyss,the tank the cell ,fire or whatever,Jesus describes it as the place of the dead,refuse,pit etc.
Regardless, it is separation from God,if you think otherwise ,it's clear you don't understand His holy perfection,rightly so from a natural,finite,and carnal state that is why you must be born of the spirit of God .

Could you see a begger of the street trying to approach the thron of the King, hewill not be allowed into the King's Kingdom without certain protocol.
In the same with God as sinners.
There will have been many chances given to all of us to know the truth of God through Jesus,but the battle is in the mind and the comprehension of it all, on the day those who go to their grave refuting,disbelieving or doubting who God is will have known they had many chances to just believe and place trust in Him, when they open their eys before God.

He says flesh and blood will not inherit the kingdom of God,God is Spirit the only way God can look at mankind is in the spirit through the sinless ,perfect,atoning blood of Christ.
God does not or cannot stand in the presence of sin,

Question God's Love
Those who question God's love because he speaks of wrath ,condemnation,judgemnt seem to forget that we are always under some form of law and protocol, order,justice,here on earth, why would it be different in God's kingdom,how else would we survive as long as we have if there were not order,law,punishment,judgemnt,justice,protocol.
But ,hey!!! when it comes to God He is not worthy to worship, how foolish a notion.

God's Love Is Displayed For All To See
Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

God Is Not Willing
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Rom 2:5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are *treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds": 7eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
God gives us countless opportunities to seek God and turn to him
He does not use fear as we know it but fear (reverence,honour,submission,surrender)
That is what most people are not ready to give up
I could not worship a God who would send creatures so much weaker than him to Hell. It's not that I stopped believing that God. I just decided that He wasn't worthy of worship/love, even if that meant that I would end up in Hell.

Since then I have learned of many Christians who do not believe that God is going to send people to Hell. If I had known that at the time, maybe I would still be Christian. Who knows?

 

[MaddLlama]

Does the law send the criminal to jail,execution etc or does he choose his destiny.
The laws are their to keep us within boundaries,they don't specifically send us to jail.
Could you see the criminal proudfully screaming after his conviction,I don't believe jail or the chair,the judge is insensitive,if a judge would send me to the chair ,he's not worthy of my praise or respect, lol!!!!!!

There is quite a large fundamental difference. First of all, we know the judge exists, with God, there is no certain proof of such. Second of all, we know the law and where it comes from, with God's "law", we cannot since if there is no certainty to the existnce of God then the source of such law is unverifiable. Third, there's a large difference between capital punishment for a crime such as murder, and torture for all enternity for not genuflecting every day to this God who offers no quantifiable proof of his very existance. And God is said to have unconditional love for all people including the ones he sends to thier eternal punishment. A judge has no such requirements pinned on him and is only there as one of many players in a play to uphold the law.
Your analogy is quite faulty.

God does not or cannot stand in the presence of sin,

If this is true, then God cannot be present on earth, period.

 

[lilithu]

Jesus did not preach turn or burn,with no LOVE,He simply expressed that unless you repent (turn from your sin) you will likewise perish.
He does describe what separation from God is going to be like.many times,throughout the word,we are just focusing so much on where and not why.
Why would God send us away to "a place", to be separated from him.
That is the question that should be asked, "sin,disbelief, rebellion etc"

Our Great Misconception
Always blame shift on someone or somethingelse avoids us taking ownership for our choices.
Is it him that send us to hell,gheena, shoel ???
Or our sinful ,disobedient,selfish,arrogant,proud selves that will direct us there.

Does the law send the criminal to jail,execution etc or does he choose his destiny.
The laws are their to keep us within boundaries,they don't specifically send us to jail.
Could you see the criminal proudfully screaming after his conviction,I don't believe jail or the chair,the judge is insensitive,if a judge would send me to the chair ,he's not worthy of my praise or respect, lol!!!!!!

We all broke God's law unless we repent,place our trust in and appropriate the work of the cross and the sacrifice that was made,God can not recieve us unto himself.
God is so Holy by his own nature,He can't allow sinful flesh into the kingdom of heaven,but is forced by His nature and our free will to reject that which manifests sin

We think we can disbelieve or discount this and that and we will tell God how it is on judgement day,You were on fair,Ithought you were a God of Love etc.
I mean, come on ,he sent his only Son to die a horrific death to pay for and forgive mankind their sin, all we have to do is accept and believe and He will confirm and varify what He says is true by His Spirit, does that not give any indication his mercy,and love so many refute or seem to confuse.
The bible says every mouth will be silenced and all the world become guilty before God
It amazes me to no end how some can think like the song by Frank Santra"I did it my way" and have it their way on that day.

Regardless of whether one spends eternity in HELL the pit , refuse,abyss,the tank the cell ,fire or whatever,Jesus describes it as the place of the dead,refuse,pit etc.
Regardless, it is separation from God,if you think otherwise ,it's clear you don't understand His holy perfection,rightly so from a natural,finite,and carnal state that is why you must be born of the spirit of God .

Could you see a begger of the street trying to approach the thron of the King, hewill not be allowed into the King's Kingdom without certain protocol.
In the same with God as sinners.
There will have been many chances given to all of us to know the truth of God through Jesus,but the battle is in the mind and the comprehension of it all, on the day those who go to their grave refuting,disbelieving or doubting who God is will have known they had many chances to just believe and place trust in Him, when they open their eys before God.

He says flesh and blood will not inherit the kingdom of God,God is Spirit the only way God can look at mankind is in the spirit through the sinless ,perfect,atoning blood of Christ.
God does not or cannot stand in the presence of sin,

Question God's Love
Those who question God's love because he speaks of wrath ,condemnation,judgemnt seem to forget that we are always under some form of law and protocol, order,justice,here on earth, why would it be different in God's kingdom,how else would we survive as long as we have if there were not order,law,punishment,judgemnt,justice,protocol.
But ,hey!!! when it comes to God He is not worthy to worship, how foolish a notion.

God's Love Is Displayed For All To See
Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

God Is Not Willing
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Rom 2:5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are *treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds": 7eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
God gives us countless opportunities to seek God and turn to him
He does not use fear as we know it but fear (reverence,honour,submission,surrender)
That is what most people are not ready to give up

If that works for you, fine. *I* was answering the OP with regards to the influence hell had on my "conversion." Period.

 

[Buttercup]

Our Great Misconception
Always blame shift on someone or somethingelse avoids us taking ownership for our choices.
Is it him that send us to hell,gheena, shoel ???
Or our sinful ,disobedient,selfish,arrogant,proud selves that will direct us there.

Does the law send the criminal to jail,execution etc or does he choose his destiny.
The laws are their to keep us within boundaries,they don't specifically send us to jail.
Could you see the criminal proudfully screaming after his conviction,I don't believe jail or the chair,the judge is insensitive,if a judge would send me to the chair ,he's not worthy of my praise or respect, lol!!!!!!

What about the billions of people who do not know Christ, Roli? Those who believe with all their heart, soul and mind in another religion? They think you are wrong you understand. Let's say you are wrong about Christ. Would it be fair for God to toss you into hell for making the wrong choice regarding religion when you have only a book to base your decision upon?

How could we have such a harsh judgement placed upon us when there are so many choices? We cannot know for absolute certainty which choice is right. It's an emotional decision without factual basis. How can a God condemn us to hell with so little evidence that we've made the right choice?

 

[Quiddity]

What about the billions of people who do not know Christ, Roli? Those who believe with all their heart, soul and mind in another religion? They think you are wrong you understand. Let's say you are wrong about Christ. Would it be fair for God to toss you into hell for making the wrong choice regarding religion when you have only a book to base your decision upon?

Although not directed at me, I hope you don’t mind me chiming in. With all due respect to Roli, billions of Christians would disagree with him. Soteriological issues are completely formed by ones Tradition. As you know there are but a select few Christian denominations (Roman Catholic, Easter Orthodox, Anglican, etc.) that grab from a similar pool of tradition. I think I can speak with confidence that most of the denominations that I speak of above do have salvation outside their Church. But this really only solves part of the problem. Your beef is with why Hell has to exist at all. Or is it more to do with the amount of time (eternity)?

How could we have such a harsh judgment placed upon us when there are so many choices? We cannot know for absolute certainty which choice is right. It's an emotional decision without factual basis. How can a God condemn us to hell with so little evidence that we've made the right choice?

Let me ask you something that can hopefully spark this conversation to head in a different direction (hopefully within the OP). Do you think more evidence or more proof would accomplish what God is trying to do?

 

[Buttercup]

Your beef is with why Hell has to exist at all. Or is it more to do with the amount of time (eternity)?

Yes, it is with why it has to exist at all and the time frame. It's not fair. I always come back to the idea that we don't get a visit from God, Victor. We can't know with absolute, positive certainty that the God we read about in the bible, the koran or any other source really exists. It's a matter of faith. How can a such a severe penalty be carried out when God is really a subjective being? All the infomation we have about God is written by men who TELL us it's inspired by God. But, we don't know for sure because each of us does not get a personal visit. And that's an awfully harsh sentence for no definite proof. Don't you see that?

Let me ask you something that can hopefully spark this conversation to head in a different direction (hopefully within the OP). Do you think more evidence or more proof would accomplish what God is trying to do?

First of all.....how do we know for sure what God is trying to do? There again.....it's only through man's words and we have to believe through faith that these are words from God. We don't know for sure. If God appeared to me this afternoon and gave me instructions on what to do...you can sure as hell bet I would carry them out. That would be my proof. And if I chose not to....THEN I would expect to receive the consequences if there were any.

 

[lilithu]

Yes, it is with why it has to exist at all and the time frame. It's not fair. I always come back to the idea that we don't get a visit from God, Victor. We can't know with absolute, positive certainty that the God we read about in the bible, the koran or any other source really exists. It's a matter of faith. How can a such a severe penalty be carried out when God is really a subjective being? All the infomation we have about God is written by men who TELL us it's inspired by God. But, we don't know for sure because each of us does not get a personal visit. And that's an awfully harsh sentence for no definite proof. Don't you see that?

Hoseah Ballou, one of the founders of Universalism in America, made a similar argument. He said that man (meaning both men and women) is a finite creature. And being finite, EVEN if we are told the truth from God in terms of how to behave etc, and rebel there is nothing that we could do to deserve an infinite punishment.

Ballou's argument was all about justice and proportionality. Assuming that God is just, which Ballou does assume, then there is no way that God would sentence us finite beings, no matter how bad we were, to an infinite punishment. It doesn't make any sense.

I agree with Ballou. Then again, I'm a Unitarian Universalist.

 

[Quiddity]

Yes, it is with why it has to exist at all and the time frame. It's not fair. I always come back to the idea that we don't get a visit from God, Victor. We can't know with absolute, positive certainty that the God we read about in the bible, the koran or any other source really exists. It's a matter of faith. How can a such a severe penalty be carried out when God is really a subjective being? All the infomation we have about God is written by men who TELL us it's inspired by God. But, we don't know for sure because each of us does not get a personal visit. And that's an awfully harsh sentence for no definite proof. Don't you see that?

The whole “you’re not certain” isn’t really going to get either of us anywhere. Just like there is uncertainty on my side (although I have my numerous reasons), so to there is on your side (how do you know for sure there isn’t a Hell?). Talking on that alone is eons of conversations. So let’s just make this easy and assume both premises for the sake of the argument ok? We can argue certainty on a later time. Baby steps, ok?

First of all.....how do we know for sure what God is trying to do? There again.....it's only through man's words and we have to believe through faith that these are words from God. We don't know for sure. If God appeared to me this afternoon and gave me instructions on what to do...you can sure as hell bet I would carry them out. That would be my proof. And if I chose not to....THEN I would expect to receive the consequences if there were any.

I don’t picture God as a militant general. I see Him as a family member. Nothing new to you I’m sure. But this makes a world of difference to me. If you begin with the premise that God wants a relationship, then I can’t see how anybody could say that God let’s you do whatever strikes you fancy and it’s no skin off his back. That’s not how relationships work. If we can get passed the fact that relationships are conditional and that is what God is seeking, then talking about Hell is a moot point.

 

[Quiddity]

Hoseah Ballou, one of the founders of Universalism in America, made a similar argument. He said that man (meaning both men and women) is a finite creature. And being finite, EVEN if we are told the truth from God in terms of how to behave etc, and rebel there is nothing that we could do to deserve an infinite punishment.

Ballou's argument was all about justice and proportionality. Assuming that God is just, which Ballou does assume, then there is no way that God would sentence us finite beings, no matter how bad we were, to an infinite punishment. It doesn't make any sense.

I agree with Ballou. Then again, I'm a Unitarian Universalist.

I'd be interested in reading how Hoseah gets around conditional relationships. That puts a big wrench into the premise from what I can see.