Christians or Former Christians: Did Hell Influence Your Conversion?

[lilithu]

How is what you just described not conditional? To get closer or farther apart is all about conditions. What am I missing here?

I already agreed with you that relationships are conditional. In fact, I would go further to say that existence in general is conditional. My disagreement with you is about the permanency of hell. If hell is permanent (or heaven for that matter), then how do you reconcile that with conditionality. They seem like rather unconditional states to me.

I am unsure how Ballou's arguments manages to split God in two. God is both Love and justice. Separating the qualities is bound to get you to miss the mark.

First off, those were my words, not Ballou's. And I wasn't splitting God in two. I was discussing how love and justice can seem to conflict with one another sometimes. But ultimately I don't believe that they do conflict, and if neither do you, I guess its moot.

I don’t know what you mean by unconditional love. Sounds like an oxymoron to me.

I thought we had all established between the three of us - Buttercup, you, and myself - that God's love is unconditional.

 

[Quiddity]

I already agreed with you that relationships are conditional. In fact, I would go further to say that existence in general is conditional. My disagreement with you is about the permanency of hell. If hell is permanent (or heaven for that matter), then how do you reconcile that with conditionality. They seem like rather unconditional states to me.

I see what you mean. Well in a conditional existance, one chooses to fulfill his own needs outside of a relationship with God. This is more then just a decision, but truly a psychological state someone get themselves into. Hell doesn't take away the conditionality, it just shifts it to other attachments.

First off, those were my words, not Ballou's.

I was actually aware of that I just got a senior moment when typing.

And I wasn't splitting God in two. I was discussing how love and justice can seem to conflict with one another sometimes. But ultimately I don't believe that they do conflict, and if neither do you, I guess its moot.

I don't think they do either. More then likely our disgreement may lie with what is justice.

I thought we had all established between the three of us - Buttercup, you, and myself - that God's love is unconditional.

Batting average 1.0....
You are correct. I don't know what happened there.

 

[retrorich]

I even stayed when I was told that when I was raped at 21, that I should pray for forgiveness and not strength by my Bible study leader. I was told that I put myself in that situation and should shoulder the blame.

What an idiotic thing for your Bible study leader to say!

 

[lilithu]

What an idiotic thing for your Bible study leader to say!

Mystic, of course retrorich is absolutely right, and I'm sorry that I did not say something similar when I first read your post. I'll admit it made me uncomfortable and I "put-off" responding. But you should not have to experience sharing something so painful and then being greeted with silence. I apologize to you for my failure and thank rich for his compassion and candor.

And I thank you for your strength of spirit. :hug:

 

[Quiddity]

Mystic, of course retrorich is absolutely right, and I'm sorry that I did not say something similar when I first read your post. I'll admit it made me uncomfortable and I "put-off" responding. But you should not have to experience sharing something so painful and then being greeted with silence. I apologize to you for my failure and thank rich for his compassion and candor.

And I thank you for your strength of spirit. :hug:

I second that. I completely passed over your post....:hug:

 

[Buttercup]

Heather,

I am completely embarrassed that I forgot to respond to your post and you left such kind frubal comments as well.

Of course I echo the sentiments expressed by the posters above me and want to add that you grew into an especially lovely, warm, funny, giving and caring human. You are one of my very favorite posters on RF and I would love to sit and have a cup of coffee with you (or a pint of beer) and blab on about our lives. Thanks for your imput in this thread.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

What an idiotic thing for your Bible study leader to say!

Yup. I agree. Of course I felt that way back then, but I felt quite conflicted with speaking up or disagreeing. I was worried that doing so would be considered outrageous, and that I would lose my circle of friends. There were topics that were discussed that focused on rape and on how women dress, talk, act, etc. and how men sometimes can't control themselves. It was really condascending toward both genders, IMHO.




Peace,
Mystic

 

[Smoke]

There were topics that were discussed that focused on rape and on how women dress, talk, act, etc. and how men sometimes can't control themselves.

I've heard that stuff all my life, and I never get used to it. Bad thing for a pacifist to say, but I wouldn't blame you if you'd cuffed him across the mouth. The idea that a "good" woman doesn't get raped is one of the most vicious lies there is, and there's no excuse for it at all. None.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Mystic, of course retrorich is absolutely right, and I'm sorry that I did not say something similar when I first read your post. I'll admit it made me uncomfortable and I "put-off" responding. But you should not have to experience sharing something so painful and then being greeted with silence. I apologize to you for my failure and thank rich for his compassion and candor.

And I thank you for your strength of spirit. :hug:

I second that. I completely passed over your post....:hug:

Heather,

I am completely embarrassed that I forgot to respond to your post and you left such kind frubal comments as well.

Of course I echo the sentiments expressed by the posters above me and want to add that you grew into an especially lovely, warm, funny, giving and caring human. You are one of my very favorite posters on RF and I would love to sit and have a cup of coffee with you (or a pint of beer) and blab on about our lives. Thanks for your imput in this thread.

Hey, y'all are just beautiful. :hug: (multiply by 4)*smile* It's been awhile, so the sting isn't quite as intense, but it's still refreshing to be validated that what happened was not only a crime, but it was terrifying and painful.



I think the reason why I made the decision to share the experience with you in this thread was because it still wasn't as painful for me in the contemplation of an eternal hell for non-believers. Having a "dunce cap" put on my head for suffering through rape was one way I identified how non-believers were to go through simply for being born on the wrong side of the tracks - so to speak.



So, to me, a person that was born in squalid conditions, that faced persecution, torture, and death at the hands of Christians, suffered their whole lives, and then were sent to an eternal hell to be punished again simply because of their circumstances and experiences. Perhaps that experience helped to shape my beliefs into a more vivid expression............I always had a difficult time with the Christian doctrine of hell.




Being raped and then being blamed for a crime against me is certainly not as horrific as damnation in hell for non-believers. My bible study leader wasn't nearly as outrageous as the idea of a loving God that turns away from non-Christians. Hopefully, the intensity of my feelings about this teaching can be better understood now. It's pure insanity, and I reject it.



Oh, and Rhonda.........I'll pass on the beer and coffee and invite you to someday slam down a couple of tequila shots with me and to have a few laughs.




Peace,
Mystic