Christians or Former Christians: Did Hell Influence Your Conversion?

[roli]

Reason #32 why I regard the LDS view of this as very sensible.

That is, it never struck me as very useful to believe that someone would be damned to eternal hell for not believing in God, when everyone around that person who preached God did so in a very cruel fashion indeed. If one of the attributes of God is mercy, then there has to be some adjustment for circumstances that would drive someone to associate, say "God" with "an excuse for genocide."

That is hard to imagine that all these christians who witnessed to that person,where as heretical as you suppose,though you paint a very vivid and unrealistic picture of the typical christian,how convenient for your cause.
Remember a very important factor when it comes to conversion, it is the Holy Spirit that draws man to God by witnessing to the spirit of the man,not man to man,also remembering your not a Christian according to your title,so to attempt to speak of God,for God or from his perspective would appear ignorance on your part,no offense intended.

 

[Buttercup]

I, for one, am no big fan of the idea that any God would damn us to eternal punishment for making a few mistakes in our relationship with Him, given the mess we have to work with. Any God that would do that...is not God. It's a petty creature with delusions of grandeur and not worthy of worship or praise.

Exactly....we do have a mess to sift through don't we? And how a God would ban us from Him eternally because we honestly make the wrong choice makes zero sense to me.

I can't imagine at this point in my life why someone thinks a finitely informed human could ever play on the same chess board as an infinite creator. That "his spirit" is supposed to be enough proof to keep us out of hell. No way. That stacks the odds waaaay too much in God's favor. And if there is a God who created us....why would he do that? Is he really that much of a bully? I don't think so.

I can view many different truths from various religions as a guideline as to what God "might" want....but in the end these are words from men, not God himself.

 

[MaddLlama]

Remember a very important factor when it comes to conversion, it is the Holy Spirit that draws man to God by witnessing to the spirit of the man,not man to man,also remembering your not a Christian according to your title,so to attempt to speak of God,for God or from his perspective would appear ignorance on your part,no offense intended.

So, Christians are allowed to speak for god? Don't you think that's just the slightest bit arrogant? How do you know what god wants?

There you go again, speaking more from what I believe to be your own position,but we will pretend it's for your atheist friend.
What is to your perception as counterproductive and patronizing is nothing more than your attempt to refute and limit the power of God in your friends life,
By the way the bible does say the unbeliever 's eyes are blinded

Actually, I do find it patronizing that any person, Christian or otherwise would use the response "I'll pray for you" upon discovering that the person they're speaking to is not of thier religion. It happens to me all the time, which is why I tend to not seek out the religious as companions.
I don't believe god exists, therefore I do not believe he has any power over my life or your life. If something were wrong with me, let's say I was ill, or grieving, I would think it's nice, but still patronzing that someone would say "Oh, I'll pray for you" especially when they know full well I do not believe in god. Why not do something to help me instead?

Did it occur to you at any point that it is entirely possible for people to live happy, fulfilled, ethical and altruistic lives without knowing your version of god? That maybe people don't need any god or moral system that was created thousands of years ago to do these things? That people might not want to be Christian for reasons other than personal pride, denial and fear of punishment?

 

[Buttercup]

How do you know what god wants?

Hey...I started a thread asking the same question!

 

[Ozzie]

As you were contemplating becoming a Christian, did the thought of ending up in Hell influence your decision to become a Christian?

Was part of the reason you converted to Christianity because you were fearful of being sent to Hell if you didnt accept these teachings?

I know for many of you this will be a hard question to answer because youve been a Christian so long you cant remember. All I ask is for you to take a truthful look at your reasons for becoming a Christian and answer if the fear of Hell was one of them.

Poll to follow......Thank you!

Sorry for intervening in this as a non-Christian. This post raises questions for me about the path taken by Christians in becoming one. I have heard that Christianity emphasises the role of personal revelation in establishing a connectedness with God. This proposition could support or deny the possibility of someone "considering" Hell as a reason for adopting Christianity. IF I establish through the context of my experience that life is hell on earth and so decide to adopt Christianity, isn't that different to experiencing a revelation of Hell and so adopting Christianity? Am I mistaken?

 

[Booko]

How do you think I limit his power, it has to do with revernece and honor which I speak of,it's those who minimize His glory and name and feel they can expect him to march to their own beat.

God can reach anyone He pleases -- right through the sarcasm and unbelief and downright hatred of Him. To think He can't is to limit Him. That was all.

You looked more to be pooh poohing all logic and reason. While it's true that logic and reason can get in the way of seeking God, it can assist as well. Or at least, St. Paul seemed to think it could be useful.

The gospel always did and always will be offensive,the so called religious leaders killed Jesus,because of his offensive words.

<sigh> You clearly have no idea how tiresome this line is. It's usually quoted by someone who is called on for saying something that offends someone, and they use it to blame the Gospel instead of looking at how what they said looked to another, and maybe reconsidering how they express themselves.

I understand that the Gospel can be offensive. Since we're not perfect, anything God has to say to us will contain some corrections, and who likes to hear that?

Someone who believes in the Gospel might get that. Someone who doesn't won't, and you just end up looking mighty rude when you quote that at them.

I was raised a Christian, Roli, was an atheist for years. I know how this looks to an atheist -- I used to be one. I'm not saying anything here to criticize you, but to try and show you how things look to someone not coming from your frame of reference.

If you want to teach someone the Gospel, you can't do it from where your standing. You'll have to walk over and meet them where they're standing. Like Paul also said, "Be all things to all people."

I don't push people away as you think ,I just share the message ,blame God someday.

Really? This stuff always pushed me away. It pushed me right out of Christianity. I read where other people are pushed away.

But it doesn't push people away...hm...

Ok, whatever you want to believe, I guess, even if it ain't true, I can't make you believe what you don't care to see. Good luck with that.

I am sure if one of your atheist friends had a terminal disease and I,a mere theist had the cure, your offense that you felt toward me would seem insignificant incomparison to the fatality of the impending effects of the disease ,if indeed pride was not the factor and you did value life.
But hey! that is another topic.

No, it's just irrelevant.

They tried many times to stone Jesus or run him out of town. The light of the gospel exposes darkness and those who are in sin hate the gospel mesage look around in the world today and see how the world treats the christians message,the morals ,etc.

Like I said, that's a topic for another thread, or PM if you like. My opinions on the subject just might surprise you.

You sound like an advocate for your atheist friends, but if I may indulge it would seem to me,I could be wrong that you are speaking from your own view point

I'm speaking from my former viewpoint as a former atheist, with the intent of giving you a little (yeah, unasked for! :cover coaching on "how not to teach atheists." You are, natch, under no obligation to take anything I have to say seriously.

This approach is not mine,I hope it never becomes my approach,but thanks for attributing the message of the the gospel to me, I am honored.

Oh? The approach isn't yours? Uh...is someone else typing for you? No, I'm not being smart -- you're the one typing, and you're responsible for what you type. As is everyone else responsible for what they type. You can try to pretend you're not, but I doubt you'll get many takers. Even if all you do is type verses from the Bible -- YOU are responsible. You're the one who chose which verses to type, in which context.

Your offense is not, nor will it ever be at the messenger.

Who's offended? 'Taint me.

By the way the bible does say the unbeliever 's eyes are blinded

What's your point? Even if it's true, does it make it somehow not RUDE to say that to someone?

Do you traipse through grocery stores informing all fat people about how fat they are? Or do you think they might find that offensive and tell you to take a hike? Do you think it would help anyone to lose weight if you did that?

Be all things to all people.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat013.html#15http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Jo/1Jo002.html#11

Again, I don't convince anyone and reason has it's part but when the full weight of the evidence required to believe and perceive God is based on this reason and logic ,you won't come close to finding God ,if indeed your truly looking.

As I said, reason and logic have their limits. That does not make them useless or even dangerous, in themselves. If a person's heart is veiled by selfish desires, then those tools will be destructive. But if they seektruth earnestly and are willing to accept truth when they find it, even when its uncomfortable, then reason and logic are powerful tools of understanding.

Read 1Cor 1,2 for what God says of the wisdom of this world ,it is foolishness in his eyes and futile, but again you will have your chance to have it out with God on judgement day regarding that one.

I'm sure I'll answer for my actions and no one else's. As for Judgement Day, I don't exactly stay up night worrying about it.

Logic will never bring you closer to God or reveal the secrets of Him.

Really? It seemed to do pretty well for many of the Church Fathers. Not that they used logic as the sole tool. There was much prayer and reflection involved, I'm sure.

What seems to get really bad results is not using logic at all, even where its applicable.

No, but if the shoe fits to size Psa 10:4 The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek [after God]: God [is] not in all his thoughts.

Do you find tagging people who don't believe in God as "wicked" helps them to find God? You can hide behind the Psalmist and claim "I was just quoting" but it's still you that decided which quote to aim where and when. It will likely be taken personally.

You would make a very excellent defense lawyer, but no I am not making this personal but generalizing

It's good to put out the caveats that it isn't personal, since without those it looks like it's aimed at some people.

Still, if you do it often enough, people will eventually conclude the caveats aren't worth the electrons they're transmitted on.

Well, enough musings for one night. It's rather late here.

Good night! :snooze:

 

[Buttercup]

Sorry for intervening in this as a non-Christian.

Don't apologize....thoughts from all are welcome.

This post raises questions for me about the path taken by Christians in becoming one. I have heard that Christianity emphasises the role of personal revelation in establishing a connectedness with God. This proposition could support or deny the possibility of someone "considering" Hell as a reason for adopting Christianity.

True. Some of the posters say the place of Hell had no affect regarding their choice to accept Christianity as their religion. For me, the place of hell and fear of being sent there by not accepting Christ as Savior definitely had an affect on me. A part of me was afraid....so a part of my acceptance was through fear.

IF I establish through the context of my experience that life is hell on earth and so decide to adopt Christianity, isn't that different to experiencing a revelation of Hell and so adopting Christianity? Am I mistaken?

I'm afraid I'm not quite on the same page as you with this sentence. Could you please expound on the point you are trying to make?

 

[Booko]

I can't imagine at this point in my life why someone thinks a finitely informed human could ever play on the same chess board as an infinite creator. That "his spirit" is supposed to be enough proof to keep us out of hell. No way. That stacks the odds waaaay too much in God's favor. And if there is a God who created us....why would he do that? Is he really that much of a bully? I don't think so.

There's enough of the message of God's mercy and love for us in the Bible that I don't see any particular reason to think that not stating some exact belief exactly right is enough to warrant eternal torment. I find it interesting that Jesus spoke of love so much more than He did of hell (or gehenna, if you prefer).

I can view many different truths from various religions as a guideline as to what God "might" want....but in the end these are words from men, not God himself.

I view them a little differently, I suppose. I view the original teachings as from God. That causes some problems where the origin was in a culture based on oral tradition and the writing came later, or some of the info was lost.

What is unquestionably words from men is any explanation of what those teachings mean. All reading is interpretation. All listening is too, for that matter.

It wouldn't matter if God Himself physically wrote down a text and sent it to us Fed Ex, we would still get some things wrong. First, just because of the limitations of all human languages, and second, just because (duh) we make mistakes. Even honest mistakes are still mistakes.

One of the other threads that's common among religions is the idea of the Spirit or some sort of connection to the divine that is always there to help us sift through the morass and find our way to truth, or at least as much of it as we can hold.

 

[Booko]

That is hard to imagine that all these christians who witnessed to that person,where as heretical as you suppose,though you paint a very vivid and unrealistic picture of the typical christian,how convenient for your cause.

a. You seem to have no idea what my "cause" is.

b. The Christians around me taught me things like this:
1. Black people are nasty and evil and should be shunned
2. Women are inferior to men, and whatever women get, they had it comin to them for being uppity
3. To believe in God, you must reject the most obvious physical evidence and shut off your God-given brains. Oh, if you're a woman, you shouldn't use your brains for more than teaching children's classes. If any asks a difficult question, get an Elder to answer it. You wouldn't know -- you have boobs.

Oh...that's just the top three. I got plenty more where those came from.

Do those sound like very "Christian" ideas to you? I can refute each one of them from the Bible without hardly lifting a brain cell. I bet you can too.

I consider myself very lucky, Roli, and am very thankful I loved to read. Sermons were very long (40-50 minutes), boring and repetitive. So I read the pew Bible to keep Mom from getting annoyed, as otherwise I would nod off. She could hardly get after me for reading the Bible.

And so I knew that the things I was being taught had nothing to do with the Gospel or with Christ.

Someone who was not such a voracious reader might've had a very different view. In fact, many of them did. Their lives did not turn out so well, and they, yes and sometimes their children and grandchildren, live in misery that could've been avoided, if the Gospel had been preached in any fashion that had any "charity" in it.

It brings a whole new meaning to that bit about the sins of the fathers being visited unto the 3rd and 4th generation. We often think that's a very curious thing, but as "unfair" as it may be, it's so true.

God,for God or from his perspective would appear ignorance on your part,no offense intended.

God is anything but ignorant. I can't say as much for the presentations of some of His purported minions, though. Like the ones I rejected early on.

 

[Buttercup]

I view them a little differently, I suppose. I view the original teachings as from God. That causes some problems where the origin was in a culture based on oral tradition and the writing came later, or some of the info was lost.

Which God?

One of the other threads that's common among religions is the idea of the Spirit or some sort of connection to the divine that is always there to help us sift through the morass and find our way to truth, or at least as much of it as we can hold.

Or not.

I am leaning (at this time could be diff next week) to the idea that God may simply be a universal force and not a "being" per se. I have a dear friend that is a local radio personality psychic....before you poo poo all that stuff, let me say that she has amazing abilities that I've witnessed first hand. Her specialty is after death communication and she has helped many strangers make peace with themselves and their departed loved ones. From what she can "see".....she says she believes in "God" but makes it sound more like a universal force or truth....instead of a "being". That makes sense to me as well. So, who knows really?

 

[Booko]

Which God?

The differences are in our perceptions, but not in the Ultimate Reality. There's only one of those, even if we view the attributes of the Ultimate Reality as if they were individuals.

Or not.

I am leaning (at this time could be diff next week) to the idea that God may simply be a universal force and not a "being" per se. I have a dear friend that is a local radio personality psychic....before you poo poo all that stuff, let me say that she has amazing abilities that I've witnessed first hand.

I never pooh pooh such stuff offhand. One of my old beaus from college has some rather bizarre and completely unexplainable abilities. I believe in repeatable results, whether I understand the mechanisms or not. Apparently my friend has an aunt that is some well-known psychic on the East Coast.

I sometimes wonder what we humans will turn out to be like when we grow up. I suspect there's more to us than we even have the power to imagine at this point, sort of like a 15 year old doesn't and can't grasp what its like to be in the prime of life.

Her specialty is after death communication and she has helped many strangers make peace with themselves and their departed loved ones. From what she can "see".....she says she believes in "God" but makes it sound more like a universal force or truth....instead of a "being". That makes sense to me as well. So, who knows really?

If by "Being" you mean an anthropomorphized concept of a God, yeah, universal force works.

Western religions have typically emphasized the "imminent" nature of the Divine (as in "a personal relationship with" and "Being" and "Father"), while Eastern religions have went more for the "transcendent" nature of the Divine, even to the point where in much of Buddhism people even call it "atheist" because there's no anthropomorphism at all.

There are uses for both views, I think. The "imminent" nature assures us there's a connection to be made, else how could we hope to understand anything? The "transcendent" nature helps us keep humility in the face of something so unutterably incomprehensibly infinite. Our individual ego is so unimportant by comparison.

The mystics of all religions have always accepted paradoxes, and the paradox of the Divine as immanent/transcendent is arguably the greatest paradox of all.

 

[roli]

So, Christians are allowed to speak for god? Don't you think that's just the slightest bit arrogant? How do you know what god wants?

If your a born again christian you know things about what God wants ,who he is, what he is doing etc,not all things but he does reveal things as we go through life and experiences,as arrogant in the natural mind that may seem to be to those on the outside looking in, it is nevertheless one of the benefits of being one with Christ.

Actually, I do find it patronizing that any person, Christian or otherwise would use the response "I'll pray for you" upon discovering that the person they're speaking to is not of thier religion. It happens to me all the time, which is why I tend to not seek out the religious as companions.
I don't believe god exists, therefore I do not believe he has any power over my life or your life. If something were wrong with me, let's say I was ill, or grieving, I would think it's nice, but still patronzing that someone would say "Oh, I'll pray for you" especially when they know full well I do not believe in god. Why not do something to help me instead?

I am sorry for offending you that way ,I understand what you are saying

Did it occur to you at any point that it is entirely possible for people to live happy, fulfilled, ethical and altruistic lives without knowing your version of god? That maybe people don't need any god or moral system that was created thousands of years ago to do these things? That people might not want to be Christian for reasons other than personal pride, denial and fear of punishment

I undersatnd what you are saying ,but if God is who he says he is and that we were created to be one with him and know him personally and have our purpose in him than worldly happiness can bring temporal fulfillment but in the end we will all be left empty,truly incomplete.
But I admit many may never experience that relationship in this life and that is their choice ,but they will never be able to say to God I never had an opportunity to choose God or get right with God.
Some may very well reconcile at the end of their life ,I am not sure how it will happen to each person.
But I know this that the power of the gospel and it's ability to change lives is somewhat watered down and very much made to be inappropriate and not sufficient in today's society.
The fact is they do need God to save them,if they want to go to his heaven,
God was'nt created by man it was an experience that people had and in which changed their lives in amazing ways.
Some people will never accept that and that is a given ,but not because they were not preached to,warned of impending judgement ,they will have heard the message 1 way or another and what they do with it is each persons responsibility

 

[Buttercup]

If by "Being" you mean an anthropomorphized concept of a God, yeah, universal force works.

Right. Most religions believe in an anthropomorphical God. I'm thinking universal force these days. Not a God who looks like a man.

There are uses for both views, I think. The "imminent" nature assures us there's a connection to be made, else how could we hope to understand anything? The "transcendent" nature helps us keep humility in the face of something so unutterably incomprehensibly infinite. Our individual ego is so unimportant by comparison.

Exactly....but what ever connection is to be made will be on a spiritual level....and not in this time dimension. Therefore a physical body that looks like a man/woman/zombie isn't necessary.

The mystics of all religions have always accepted paradoxes, and the paradox of the Divine as immanent/transcendent is arguably the greatest paradox of all.

Yes, indeed. And a fascinating, never ending subject .

 

[roli]

a. You seem to have no idea what my "cause" is.

b. The Christians around me taught me things like this:
1. Black people are nasty and evil and should be shunned
2. Women are inferior to men, and whatever women get, they had it comin to them for being uppity
3. To believe in God, you must reject the most obvious physical evidence and shut off your God-given brains. Oh, if you're a woman, you shouldn't use your brains for more than teaching children's classes. If any asks a difficult question, get an Elder to answer it. You wouldn't know -- you have boobs.

Oh...that's just the top three. I got plenty more where those came from.

Do those sound like very "Christian" ideas to you? I can refute each one of them from the Bible without hardly lifting a brain cell. I bet you can too.

I consider myself very lucky, Roli, and am very thankful I loved to read. Sermons were very long (40-50 minutes), boring and repetitive. So I read the pew Bible to keep Mom from getting annoyed, as otherwise I would nod off. She could hardly get after me for reading the Bible.

And so I knew that the things I was being taught had nothing to do with the Gospel or with Christ.

Someone who was not such a voracious reader might've had a very different view. In fact, many of them did. Their lives did not turn out so well, and they, yes and sometimes their children and grandchildren, live in misery that could've been avoided, if the Gospel had been preached in any fashion that had any "charity" in it.

It brings a whole new meaning to that bit about the sins of the fathers being visited unto the 3rd and 4th generation. We often think that's a very curious thing, but as "unfair" as it may be, it's so true.



God is anything but ignorant. I can't say as much for the presentations of some of His purported minions, though. Like the ones I rejected early on.

WOW!! I am blown away that such preaching would come from the pulpit and them still profess to be walking in the footsteps of Christ.
I have talked with many and found that so many are turned off with Christianity because of such nonsense.
I am sorry I should try to get to know you a little and understand the whole picture of where your coming from.
Please forgive me, I am quite sensitive as that may appear contridictory to my past convo's with you.
I talk with alot of people in person and have powerful conversations but sometimes on RF, I sometimes cut to the chase and appear strong with people when they say things about the lord,or christianity that they have no apparent understanding of.
This conversation is helping me to see that I need to not put everyone in the boat until I hear where they are coming from.
My apologize for not asking a little about your experiences ,that really gets to me about those who preach such garbage from the pulpit,but just to let you know it is not happening in all christian circles

 

[MaddLlama]

If your a born again christian you know things about what God wants ,who he is, what he is doing etc,not all things but he does reveal things as we go through life and experiences,as arrogant in the natural mind that may seem to be to those on the outside looking in, it is nevertheless one of the benefits of being one with Christ.

Aha, I see. Christians are so much more enlightened than everyone else that they get the right to be God's mouthpiece all the while preaching how "unworthy" we all are.

I am sorry for offending you that way ,I understand what you are saying

No offense intended, but somehow I doubt that you do.

I undersatnd what you are saying ,but if God is who he says he is and that we were created to be one with him and know him personally and have our purpose in him than worldly happiness can bring temporal fulfillment but in the end we will all be left empty,truly incomplete.

For the record, my life is not incomplete. You may need religion in order to live the life you want, but many people don't. For some people there is no spiritual realm at all, so all they have is what you would call worldly - thier career, thier family, thier friends. And, plenty of these people live fulfilled lives - they don't need anything more than what they have.
Different ways work for different people. Why can't you understand that not everybody is happy being a part of any religion? I know a few people who's lives would be totally miserable if they focused on religion.

But I admit many may never experience that relationship in this life and that is their choice ,but they will never be able to say to God I never had an opportunity to choose God or get right with God.

That's fine. See, if it does turn out that I've been wrong the whole time and I have to account myself to god before being cast into the firey pit, I will tell him point blank that I have lead a happy and fulfilled life without him.

Some people will never accept that and that is a given ,but not because they were not preached to,warned of impending judgement ,they will have heard the message 1 way or another and what they do with it is each persons responsibility

I'm always real responsive when preahcers come up to me and shout something like "repent or die!" or "judgement day is coming".

I will not be coerced into converting to any religion because of fear. I don't fear hell or even desire heaven because I see both of those concepts as after-life fantasies created by men who needed assurance that life didn't end. Religious concepts are wholly unverifiable beyond explanations such as that, so I don't waste my time with "what if" questions. The afterlife is unecessary.

 

[MaddLlama]

There are uses for both views, I think. The "imminent" nature assures us there's a connection to be made, else how could we hope to understand anything? The "transcendent" nature helps us keep humility in the face of something so unutterably incomprehensibly infinite. Our individual ego is so unimportant by comparison.

The mystics of all religions have always accepted paradoxes, and the paradox of the Divine as immanent/transcendent is arguably the greatest paradox of all.

This actually reminded me of part of a chapter in a fantastic book I can read over and over again. It's a Pagan book, and makes pretty speficic references but I think it's pretty relevent. Actually, it's one of the reasons I became a pantheist. Here's the quote:

Remember that in the Judeo-Christian view of the universe, God created the world as apaty from Himself, with humans in his own image, and is not usually thought os as being a part of either. There is a fundamental seperation in these sects between the Divine and the mortal realm, and the word of God has to be handed down through intermediaries such as priests and prophets. Even in the immanent versions of God he is still seperate from us, watching us and hearing our prayers from somewhere else.
In the usual Wiccan worldview, Deity exists in everything, and as everything. Nothing is outside or away from the Divine; everything is sacred. Deity can't be pigeonholed into inside or outside the universe; Deity is the universe. Not wholly immanent, not wholly transcendent, yet more than both - manifest.

 

[lilithu]

Remember that in the Judeo-Christian view of the universe, God created the world as apaty from Himself, with humans in his own image, and is not usually thought os as being a part of either. There is a fundamental seperation in these sects between the Divine and the mortal realm, and the word of God has to be handed down through intermediaries such as priests and prophets. Even in the immanent versions of God he is still seperate from us, watching us and hearing our prayers from somewhere else.
In the usual Wiccan worldview, Deity exists in everything, and as everything. Nothing is outside or away from the Divine; everything is sacred. Deity can't be pigeonholed into inside or outside the universe; Deity is the universe. Not wholly immanent, not wholly transcendent, yet more than both - manifest.

Except that the author is pigeonholing Judaism and Christianity. It drives me nuts that whenever someone compares their own faith to another in order to lift up their own faith and put down the other, they usually have a very limited view of the other faith. Yes, these traditions have generally focused on the transcendant aspect of God but there has always been a vein in each that focuses on the immanent. Booko has been refering to the mystics. There have been mystics in every religious tradition, and certainly within Judaism and Christianity.

"Even in the immanent versions of God he is still seperate from us, watching us and hearing our prayers from somewhere else."

What the heck does that mean? How can God be immanent and still seperate and watching and hearing from somewhere else? Has the author every heard of the Holy Spirit?! The trinity was Christianity's attempt to explain the paradox of God being both transcendant and immanent at the same time.

 

[retrorich]

Hell scared the Hell out of me; and my religious beliefs left with it. I feel much better now.

 

[Ronald]

Hell is the grave! The Greco-Roman concept is the holding cell for all the unrepentant souls! I am very happy I am not in the Greco-Roman Christianity. As there is no "Immortal Soul." No hol;ding pen for any soul! "Come out of her, my people." Re 18:4

Shalom

 

[Quiddity]

Sorry, what do you mean by conditional relationships?

Conditional relationships are a natural response to our basic psychological needs. Don't wish to deviate too far off topic so you can read more on it here:
http://www.heal-reconcile-rwanda.org/lec_needs.htm
Or there is plenty of other sources to read from. Hopefully this will give you a good sense of what I mean.