Christians or Former Christians: Did Hell Influence Your Conversion?

[lilithu]

I really like this viewpoint Luna....but the next question that comes to mind is....if your church doesn't teach that there's a hell, what else do you take away from the bible? I don't mean that to be offensive, but you understand that the majority of Christians believe in sort form of hell. Yet, you believe in the fall.

Why are the Fall and hell linked for you Buttercup? Why does one mean there has to be the other?

The Fall to me means that things here are not as good as they could be. In that sense, this imperfect world is already the "punishment." But not really, since it's merely the consequence of our own actions.

If you do a close reading of the Genesis story, the only punishment that God metes out to Adam and Eve and the serpent is that 1) humans now have to work in order to eat whereas the land used to naturally supply more than enough food; 2) Eve became subservient to Adam and she would experience labor pains; 3) the serpent had to crawl on its belly. There is no where in the text where it says that God has punished all of us as a result of what they did. And no where in the text is the Fall linked to hell.

(Granted, there may be something that effect later in the NT. I admit that asside from the Gospels, I don't pay as much attention to the NT cuz Paul and Revelations get on my nerves.)

 

[Buttercup]

It's a metaphor.

PS. That does not mean it is not true.

So who decides which stories are metaphor and which are not in the Episcopal church?

 

[lunamoth]

So who decides which stories are true and which are not in the Episcopal church?

It's all true. And we decide for ourselves.

 

[Buttercup]

Why are the Fall and hell linked for you Buttercup? Why does one mean there has to be the other?

The Fall to me means that things here are not as good as they could be. In that sense, this imperfect world is already the "punishment." But not really, since it's merely the consequence of our own actions.

If you do a close reading of the Genesis story, the only punishment that God metes out to Adam and Eve and the serpent is that 1) humans now have to work in order to eat whereas the land used to naturally supply more than enough food; 2) Eve became subservient to Adam and she would experience labor pains; 3) the serpent had to crawl on its belly. There is no where in the text where it says that God has punished all of us as a result of what they did. And no where in the text is the Fall linked to hell.

(Granted, there may be something that effect later in the NT. I admit that asside from the Gospels, I don't pay as much attention to the NT cuz Paul and Revelations get on my nerves.)

Wasn't a punishment of the fall that Adam and Eve would die?

 

[Katzpur]

Wasn't a punishment of the fall that Adam and Eve would die?

1 Corinthians 15:22: "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

All die. All shall be made alive.

Or were you thinking along a different line?

 

[Buttercup]

1 Corinthians 15:22: "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

All die. All shall be made alive.

Or were you thinking along a different line?

No, I'm thinking I read that in Genesis....And the precursor for us needing a savior. I should go look but I'm eating cake atm.

 

[lilithu]

Wasn't a punishment of the fall that Adam and Eve would die?

I don't know. God did say that "if you eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall surely die." And the serpent said that they wouldn't die. And then God doesn't mention the previous death sentence while He's meting out their punishments. <shrug>

Obviously, they didn't die on that day. Some people think it meant they became mortal and I used to think so but now the idea of us all living forever (had there been no Fall) seems silly to me. It could go either way but I take it to mean a spiritual death, being separated from God. But again, I don't see that as a punishment. I see that as the consequence of the Fall. We chose to separate ourselves from God.

Genesis 3: (NIV version)
11 And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?" 12 The man said, "The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."
13 Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?"
The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."
14 So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this,
"Cursed are you above all the livestock
and all the wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel."
16 To the woman he said,
"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."
17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,'
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."
20 Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all the living.
21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22,23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life. And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

Notice how Adam blames the woman and then Eve blames the snake? Typical human nature, never accepting responsibility for our own actions.

 

[lilithu]

I see what you're saying, but what about those who really don't want to be with God, who have had every conceivable chance to make the choice to spend eternity with God and yet flat out want no part of His Kingdom?

We wait for them.

There's no such thing as "every conceivable chance" unless the door is always open. If the door closes, then I for one can conceive that there was a chance that could have been given that wasn't.

 

[Buttercup]

I don't know. God did say that "if you eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall surely die." And the serpent said that they wouldn't die. And then God doesn't mention the previous death sentence while He's meting out their punishments. <shrug>

Obviously, they didn't die on that day. Some people think it meant they became mortal and I used to think so but now the idea of us all living forever (had there been no Fall) seems silly to me. It could go either way but I take it to mean a spiritual death, being separated from God. But again, I don't see that as a punishment. I see that as the consequence of the Fall. We chose to separate ourselves from God.

I've always taken it as Adam and Eve were immortal before the Fall and mortal after they blew it as part of their punishment....but, if you think about it...the whole story sounds silly. Can you imagine if we went against our earthly biological fathers and were given such severe punishments? Our parents would be locked up for child abuse.

Notice how Adam blames the woman and then Eve blames the snake?

Typical human nature, never accepting responsibility for our own actions.

Haaa! Yes, this is part of the story I always found pretty funny.

 

[Katzpur]

We wait for them.

There's no such thing as "every conceivable chance" unless the door is always open. If the door closes, then I for one can conceive that there was a chance that could have been given that wasn't.

I'm thinking that I've pretty much said all I have to say on this topic, and that anything else I might add would be redundant. But before I go, though, I just want to comment on this one last statement.

I could agree with you, lilithu, if the chances were being offered by man. We have no way of seeing what's in someone else's heart. Consequently, it would be entirely possible for us to inadvertently neglect to make the one and only offer that might be accepted. When I say, "every conceivable chance," you need to realize that I am talking about God giving out the chances. He knows when every possible option has been exhausted. Then and only then will He close the door.

I'll leave you three (Buttercup, Lunamoth and Lilithu) to hash this out some more. Thanks for listening to my point of view.

 

[Buttercup]

I'm thinking that I've pretty much said all I have to say on this topic, and that anything else I might add would be redundant. But before I go, though, I just want to comment on this one last statement.

Same here, Kathryn. In fact, I have been redundant when new posters came onboard. Unless someone else comes along that needs to discuss this further, I don't have much left to say either.

After discussing this subject with all of you in numerous threads.....I feel much, much better about my conviction that if there is a hell, either no one will go there or hardly anyone will be sent there. I am convinced of that now. Eases my concience as well.

Thank you everyone who participated in this thread......feel free to keep posting if you need to.

 

[Booko]

They both very well could be correct. Who knows? That's part of my problem with religion in general these days. There's so many to choose from and many preach hell as a place where unbelievers go. So who is right? I find it hard to believe they are all right. Or perhaps none of them are right?

My thoughts are leaning these days toward the thought that we don't know a dang thing about God really.

I'm not sure who does much hell preaching beyond a subset of Christians, Muslims, and who knows if Zoroastrians still do that.

Why do you find it hard to believe they're all right, at least on some level?

 

[Booko]

Hoseah Ballou, one of the founders of Universalism in America, made a similar argument. He said that man (meaning both men and women) is a finite creature. And being finite, EVEN if we are told the truth from God in terms of how to behave etc, and rebel there is nothing that we could do to deserve an infinite punishment.

Hm...this must be why I normally score 99-100% UU on those quizzes that come up. Once in a while it comes up liberal Quaker.

 

[Booko]

My worship of said God would be so much freer and heartfelt if I wasn't threatened with hell if i DIDNT love him. I want to give my love freely to someone....not because I will suffer eternally if I dont. That's why I always bring up the parent/child relationship. Would a child loves us if they were told to or suffer hell as a consequence? Who wants that?

My love for my son may be very great indeed, but if he smashes up the car, I will not be happy about it, and there will be consequences, not because I'm petulant and angry, but because he needs to understand irresponsible behaviour is not acceptable.

otoh, I will not banish him to his room for the rest of his life either.

 

[Booko]

Creation is the evidence you need to consider there is an intelligent designer,to call upon him in your sarcasim and logic only push God further away.

God is quite capable of cutting through sarcasm and logic. Why do you feel the need to limit His power?

And what you (unfortunately) probably don't realize is what you're writing is likely to drive any atheist even further into sarcasm.

But I figured I'd drop a line and let you know, so you might consider a different approach.

Mind you, I pray that many will open their eyes to the truth before they are subject to the tradgedies of life,but man never seems to learn that way.

It's even more counterproductive to mention to an atheist that you're praying for much of anything, especially to tell them that you're praying because their eyes aren't open. Sounds rather patronizing, nu? Probably because...it is.

It's ironic how many call out to God when tradgedy strikes,people die,illness arrives, such as 9/11,hundreds of thousands who never called on God before, call on him as if he was some kind of a sugar daddy, crying for help ,hungry for answers and reasons as to why,praying ,blaming ,repenting,weeping,
Asking for mercy etc. etc. etc.

There actually are atheists in foxholes, despite what some theists would like to think.

That is what it will take in North American culture, a catastrophy, a stripping away,I feel it coming.

I think you have a point here, but alas, for another thread. And still, it's a conversation that would make more sense for theists to have with each other.

I won;t convince you by mere intellectual reasoning or arguements.

Very true. But you won't convince an atheist by brushing off reason and argument as useless either. Limited, yes...but useless...and even dangerous?

God's word says,the pride of their countenance man won't seek after God,he actually resists the proud and hides from those who mock and ridicule.

Oh, great. Now go sticking the label "Proud" on a person's forehead. That will really get you a hearing.

But warns of His day which He will render to each according to their deeds

I haven't noticed MaddLlama doing any particularly nasty deeds on RF.

 

[Buttercup]

I'm not sure who does much hell preaching beyond a subset of Christians, Muslims

I believe a majority of Protestants and Catholics believe in hell, Booko. Muslims too. Frankly, I don't see how anyone could read the bible and not come to the conclusion there is some form of hell. You'd have to close your eyes through much of your reading to ignore that.

Why do you find it hard to believe they're all right, at least on some level?

I find it hard to believe they're all right because I'm not sure the smorgasborg style of religion is the right way. Are you suggesting I pick what I like from each and leave the rest?

 

[Booko]

Zoroastrianism could have been around since Adam. But, the concept of a savior born of a virgin was definitely around long before Christianity...or even Isaiah.

You might want to ponder why a bunch of "Magi" would be looking for such a saviour, according to Luke, esp. considering the meaning of "Magist." Now, how would they know where and when to look? That bit about just following a star is very nice, but a bit...directionally challenged.

It gets even more fun when you start looking at eschatological figures.

 

[Booko]

Yes, I believe they will. God knows the condition of their hearts and He doesn't want to lose anybody. He knows why they rejected Him during this life, and the circumstances that played into their decision. That's why I believe He will give everybody every conceivable opportunity to accept Him before it's too late.

Reason #32 why I regard the LDS view of this as very sensible.

That is, it never struck me as very useful to believe that someone would be damned to eternal hell for not believing in God, when everyone around that person who preached God did so in a very cruel fashion indeed. If one of the attributes of God is mercy, then there has to be some adjustment for circumstances that would drive someone to associate, say "God" with "an excuse for genocide."

 

[Booko]

I believe a majority of Protestants and Catholics believe in hell, Booko. Muslims too. Frankly, I don't see how anyone could read the bible and not come to the conclusion there is some form of hell. You'd have to close your eyes through much of your reading to ignore that.

Or recognize it for a metaphor. I know the meaning of hell has often been literal, but from my pov that was useful thousands of years ago, but has lost its utility as an explanation of "consequences."

I think of it as the difference between trying to guide a toddler and a teenager. You can reason with the teenager. The toddler? You just say No! and tell them they'll get hurt and/or will go to bed without supper.

We're not toddlers any more.

I find it hard to believe they're all right because I'm not sure the smorgasborg style of religion is the right way. Are you suggesting I pick what I like from each and leave the rest?

No. I'm suggesting that:

1. At the core they teach the same thing. Love God. Love your neighbor as yourself. Acquire virtues (honesty, compassion, charity, justice, wisdom, etc.) and avoid vice (anything that will slow or stop spiritual growth, dishonesty, cruelty, excess, etc.). What religions teach something other than this?

2. There are things that humans add on. It can be, er, fun, to try and determine which things those are sometimes, but it's not impossible all the time.

3. There are some differences that are genuine, and have more to do with conditions at the time the religion began, and can change as the human condition does. That these differences are there are natural -- as natural as the idea that you don't explain things to that toddler and the teenager in the same fashion. Rather like that literal teaching of hell.

It can be rather a mess to sift through, certainly, but we do the best we can, eh?

I, for one, am no big fan of the idea that any God would damn us to eternal punishment for making a few mistakes in our relationship with Him, given the mess we have to work with. Any God that would do that...is not God. It's a petty creature with delusions of grandeur and not worthy of worship or praise.

 

[roli]

God is quite capable of cutting through sarcasm and logic. Why do you feel the need to limit His power?

How do you think I limit his power, it has to do with revernece and honor which I speak of,it's those who minimize His glory and name and feel they can expect him to march to their own beat.

And what you (unfortunately) probably don't realize is what you're writing is likely to drive any atheist even further into sarcasm.

The gospel always did and always will be offensive,the so called religious leaders killed Jesus,because of his offensive words.
I don't push people away as you think ,I just share the message ,blame God someday.
I am sure if one of your atheist friends had a terminal disease and I,a mere theist had the cure, your offense that you felt toward me would seem insignificant incomparison to the fatality of the impending effects of the disease ,if indeed pride was not the factor and you did value life.
But hey! that is another topic.

They tried many times to stone Jesus or run him out of town. The light of the gospel exposes darkness and those who are in sin hate the gospel mesage look around in the world today and see how the world treats the christians message,the morals ,etc.
You sound like an advocate for your atheist friends, but if I may indulge it would seem to me,I could be wrong that you are speaking from your own view point

But I figured I'd drop a line and let you know, so you might consider a different approach.

This approach is not mine,I hope it never becomes my approach,but thanks for attributing the message of the the gospel to me, I am honored.
Your offense is not, nor will it ever be at the messenger.

It's even more counterproductive to mention to an atheist that you're praying for much of anything, especially to tell them that you're praying because their eyes aren't open. Sounds rather patronizing, nu? Probably because...it is.

There you go again, speaking more from what I believe to be your own position,but we will pretend it's for your atheist friend.
What is to your perception as counterproductive and patronizing is nothing more than your attempt to refute and limit the power of God in your friends life,
By the way the bible does say the unbeliever 's eyes are blinded
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
1Jo 2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

Very true. But you won't convince an atheist by brushing off reason and argument as useless either. Limited, yes...but useless...and even dangerous?

Again, I don't convince anyone and reason has it's part but when the full weight of the evidence required to believe and perceive God is based on this reason and logic ,you won't come close to finding God ,if indeed your truly looking.
Read 1Cor 1,2 for what God says of the wisdom of this world ,it is foolishness in his eyes and futile, but again you will have your chance to have it out with God on judgement day regarding that one.
Logic will never bring you closer to God or reveal the secrets of Him.

Oh, great. Now go sticking the label "Proud" on a person's forehead. That will really get you a hearing.

No, but if the shoe fits to size Psa 10:4 The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek [after God]: God [is] not in all his thoughts.
Jam 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

I haven't noticed MaddLlama doing any particularly nasty deeds on RF

You would make a very excellent defense lawyer, but no I am not making this personal but generalizing