Christians or Former Christians: Did Hell Influence Your Conversion?

[Buttercup]

So let’s just make this easy and assume both premises for the sake of the argument ok? We can argue certainty on a later time. Baby steps, ok?

What do you mean both premises? Certainty and uncertainty of hell? I'm confused.

I don’t picture God as a militant general. I see Him as a family member. Nothing new to you I’m sure. But this makes a world of difference to me. If you begin with the premise that God wants a relationship, then I can’t see how anybody could say that God let’s you do whatever strikes you fancy and it’s no skin off his back. That’s not how relationships work. If we can get passed the fact that relationships are conditional and that is what God is seeking, then talking about Hell is a moot point.

I know all this, Victor. it's not even part of the debate as far as I'm concerned. I do not have conflict with the notion that a God could want a relationship with us according to Christianity. My worship of said God would be so much freer and heartfelt if I wasn't threatened with hell if i DIDNT love him. I want to give my love freely to someone....not because I will suffer eternally if I dont. That's why I always bring up the parent/child relationship. Would a child loves us if they were told to or suffer hell as a consequence? Who wants that?

 

[Quiddity]

What do you mean both premises? Certainty and uncertainty of hell? I'm confused.

If you start with the premise “how do you know anything”. How are we supposed to ever get through this topic? I’d have to go back and explain proofs of God from Aquinas and others. Then go to why I believe in the Bible and so on. So asking me why I’m certain of Hell is interconnected to my bias and presuppositions. Don’t you see?

I know all this, Victor it's not even part of the debate as far as I'm concerned. I do not have conflict with the notion that a God could want a relationship with us according to Christianity. My worship of said God would be so much freer and heartfelt if I wasn't threatened with hell if i DIDNT love him. I want to give my love freely to someone....not because I will suffer eternally if I dont. That's why I always bring up the parent/child relationship. Would a child loves us if they were told to or suffer hell as a consequence? Who wants that?

1) Our views of Hell differ. 2) I’d like to hear you out what you think would be just to do with people that want nothing to do with God.

Let’s go from there.

 

[lilithu]

I'd be interested in reading how Hoseah gets around conditional relationships. That puts a big wrench into the premise from what I can see.

Sorry, what do you mean by conditional relationships?

 

[Buttercup]

If you start with the premise “how do you know anything”. How are we supposed to ever get through this topic? I’d have to go back and explain proofs of God from Aquinas and others. Then go to why I believe in the Bible and so on. So asking me why I’m certain of Hell is interconnected to my bias and presuppositions. Don’t you see?

Ok, I understand where you're coming from. Unfortunately, I have read Aquinas and probably "some" of the others you talk about and haven't found definite proof of God in anyone's writings, sorry. And even though it matters not to you, I do find it fishy that Zoroaster (Zoroastrianism) was the first to come up with a fiery hell, heaven, a savior for mankind born of a virgin, angels and demons, etc. It points me again to the question, how do we really know which religion is true? And how much influence has Christianity borrowed from other religions? It certainly is true that the Jews borrowed pagan Gods...why couldn't they have borrowed parts of the story of Christ and heaven and hell as well?

1) Our views of Hell differ. 2) I’d like to hear you out what you think would be just to do with people that want nothing to do with God.

Let’s go from there.

1. For argument sake, let's simply call hell a separation from God (after death) because of our own deeds. 2. If you could give people an absolute proof that God exists and they still want nothing to do with him, I could answer the second part of your question.

 

[Buttercup]

Hoseah Ballou, one of the founders of Universalism in America, made a similar argument. He said that man (meaning both men and women) is a finite creature. And being finite, EVEN if we are told the truth from God in terms of how to behave etc, and rebel there is nothing that we could do to deserve an infinite punishment.

Ballou's argument was all about justice and proportionality. Assuming that God is just, which Ballou does assume, then there is no way that God would sentence us finite beings, no matter how bad we were, to an infinite punishment. It doesn't make any sense.

I agree with Ballou. Then again, I'm a Unitarian Universalist.

I've never read Ballou but....his reasoning sounds good to me.

It reminds me of controversy surrounding the death penalty. A large majority of Catholics do not believe in or condone capital punishment no matter how heinous the crime. They believe no matter how bad the criminal we do not have authority to take the life of a human being on purpose. So, does that mean that Catholics are more merciful than God himself? We are to believe that man pardons from death but God doesn't?

 

[lilithu]

A large majority of Catholics do not believe in or condone capital punishment no matter how heinous the crime. They believe no matter how bad the criminal we do not have authority to take the life of a human being on purpose. So, does that mean that Catholics are more merciful than God himself? We are to believe that man pardons from death but God doesn't?

I'm not sure if that's a rhetorical question, Buttercup. I'm not sure whether you are arguing that there is no Hell because God is just or that there is no just God because Hell is unjust.

Not that you asked for my advice but I'm offering it anyway. (Make what you will of it. )

You are unlikely to be able to put your mind at ease about God with the arguments in these forums. As you said, Aquinas' proof is unconvincing for someone who isn't sure they believe. It is impossible to logically prove the existence (or non-existence) of God.

I would suggest that instead of logically trying to convince yourself whether there is or is not a God that you take some time to search your heart instead of your brain. Do you feel that the universe has purpose and meaning? Do you feel a benevolent presence in your life? You don't have to be certain of it in order to answer yes. But if you don't feel such a presence, then I would suggest that you don't really believe in God, regardless of what your mind says. And if you do feel it, start from there...

The question for me isn't "Is there a God?" The question for me is, "If there is a God, what does that mean for my life?"

"I don't know Who - or what - put the question, I don't know when it was put. I don't even remember answering. But at some moment I did answer Yes to Someone - or Something - and from that hour I was certain that existence is meaningful and that, therefore, my life, in self-surrender, had a goal."
- Dag Hammarskjold

 

[Buttercup]

I'm not sure if that's a rhetorical question, Buttercup. I'm not sure whether you are arguing that there is no Hell because God is just or that there is no just God because Hell is unjust.

Yes, it was basically a rhetorical question but perhaps Victor will attempt to answer it for me. He's been one of the few Christians willing to carry on a conversation with a heretic.

I would suggest that instead of logically trying to convince yourself whether there is or is not a God that you take some time to search your heart instead of your brain. Do you feel that the universe has purpose and meaning? Do you feel a benevolent presence in your life? You don't have to be certain of it in order to answer yes. But if you don't feel such a presence, then I would suggest that you don't really believe in God, regardless of what your mind says. And if you do feel it, start from there...

I have always felt the possibility of God....ever since I was really small. And there have been numerous times during my Christian walk I thought I felt the benevolent touch of God. I don't have a problem with thinking there could be God. I believe in the past I have felt a presence as well as reconciled intellectually a belief in a supreme being. I am certain if there is a God,.....this God is entirely and completely sympathetic and filled with love for us.

"If there is a God, what does that mean for my life?"

This is where I am at this point and it's because the Christian Hell doesn't sit well with me. No matter if you define Hell as eternal torment or a more simple separation from God. Prior to the last six months I never gave Hell much thought because I knew I wasn't going there. For some reason it's just stuck in my craw and won't get out. Hell ruins religion for me. And it certainly is ruining Christianity for me. I cannot reconcile a benevolent, loving source with eternal torment or even separation. And it grieves me to consider leaving Christianity behind.....thus the reason for my many threads on the subject. I'm hoping someone will come along with a convincing argument to keep Christianity alive but omit hell. So far, not much luck......except Lunamoth (an Episcopalian) gave me some hope.

Anyway, Lilithu......I appreciate the conversation. It helps a lot. :hug: I hope someone else is helped by these discussions as well.

 

[roli]

[

quote=MaddLlama]There is quite a large fundamental difference. First of all, we know the judge exists, with God, there is no certain proof of such.

If your not looking for him you won't find him,or any evidence of him.
Rom 1 says Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Just like when you look at a building,or an airplane you see the objects but not the presence of the designers,it's no different with creation it clearly points through common sense and simple logic the existence of a designer ,whether he is present or not.

Regardless how you want rationalize it.

Why many don't find God is because their not looking,it's much like why a criminal won't find a cop,why? he's guilty,consequences,punishment,his freedom is threatened.
Jer 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find [me], when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
When a person finds GOD,sorry,not that we find him, but rather He comes looking for us, we must see our need for God and His salvation from our sinful state or we won't come to him.
Those who refute Him have many reasons,but the bible says that Jesus is the light that exposes the darkness or sin and that many hate that light(Jesus) and won't come into the light because their ways are evil and for fear their deeds will be exposed.

Nobody comprehend His Holiness and that our sinful state cannot enter into His presence and live,that just is unimaginable to the humnan facilties how a man could die when they stood before God,not because He struck them down but because an unclean man could not stand or live in his Holiness.
That is why jesus came,to bridge the gap it is only through Jesus can men be recieved by God.

Second of all, we know the law and where it comes from, with God's "law", we cannot since if there is no certainty to the existnce of God then the source of such law is unverifiable.

May I suggest that you look into your conscience and ask yourself who placed the standards within you in which you judge right and wrong with.
Of course your parents and teachers instilled and built upon that moral code that already existed,but even with a good moral upbringing you can not please God until you are forgiven through the blood of JESUS who was the perfect sacrifice.
There are reasons why you don't murder,the law and punishment are 1 very good reason.

Third, there's a large difference between capital punishment for a crime such as murder, and torture for all enternity for not genuflecting every day to this God who offers no quantifiable proof of his very existance.

What you do with the proof of God evident in the existence of the moon and sun,natural laws eternally existent, hyrdological cycles,the plant life and the complexities,individualistic design, purpose and differneces of all living oragnisms,not to mention the universe , etc is your business and it's beyond me.
The proof is in the pudding !!!!
How can someone see a stop sign and not see an intelligent designer behind it.
Well that to me would indicate wilful ignorance, not a lack of scientific proof.
You would never see anyone try to reason with another about it's designer,because it would be an insult to the intelligence not to mention humiliating for thinking such a thought

If we can remove or refute God out of our society or conscience through rational thinking we can continue creating Gods and religions to suit our lifestyles,with no accountability but to ourselves and most certainly create a god who would allow us to live according to what we consider good and right and a god who would never incurr severe punishment would be the ideal god to create.

Just because we can't understand or believe the reasons behind God's justice system will not render us innocent and justified
If you call on him from a pure heart he will answer you and reveal Himself to you.
If he never revealed himself to me I could find many more tangible things to place my belief in and get much more reward out of plaesing myself.
But God is real and living and will come to those who will come to him from a pure heart.

And God is said to have unconditional love for all people including the ones he sends to thier eternal punishment. A judge has no such requirements pinned on him and is only there as one of many players in a play to uphold the law.
Your analogy is quite faulty.

The point is clear,God came as the savior through Christ to save the world and will come again as judge,to judge the living and dead,sin, disobedience and wilfull ignorance will be our .
We are excited to see judgement take place all around us from movies,to real life but when we are threatened with impending judgement this is what man will do.
The bible says that the people on that day will pray for the rocks to fall on them

If this is true, then God cannot be present on earth, period

That's quite an absolute statement from someone who might know 1% of all the knowledge in the world,universe,do you think that could leave room for error on your part, quite possible there is a 99% chance of the knowledge you have not yet come across that could proves God exists.
I know for certain not from intellect or knowledge but because of personal experience and relationship,it can be had by the heart only and not by intellect
The god of this world (satan) blinds the eyes of the unbeliever and that god will hide himself from those who rebell,disobey and are wicked.
God does'nt exist ,why because your mind can grasp His presence

 

[MaddLlama]

[
If your not looking for him you won't find him,or any evidence of him.

Ah, I see....you have to believe that he exists first befor you can find him. Clever, but not convincing.

May I suggest that you look into your conscience and ask yourself who placed the standards within you in which you judge right and wrong with.

Certainly.
The basis of my own personal morals and ethics are 24 years of my own personal experience.

How can someone see a stop sign and not see an intelligent designer behind it.

Sure, somebody invented the stop sign and decided to make it a red octagon. However, with little effort I could find out who it was and even find a way to contact him. That person has a tangible physical existance so I know he is real. Does god have that? Can I have his phone number?
Saying "Oh, look at all the pretty trees! Jesus muse be real" is a total logical fallacy, and it makes no sense. I could just as easily say "Look at all the pretty trees! The goddess must be real!" and it would offer no more proof of the existance or absolute truth of that deity that you are providing me.
It's a weak argument. Especially when you're talking to someone who believes intelligent design is no substitute for real evolutionary science.

If we can remove or refute God out of our society or conscience through rational thinking we can continue creating Gods and religions to suit our lifestyles,with no accountability but to ourselves and most certainly create a god who would allow us to live according to what we consider good and right and a god who would never incurr severe punishment would be the ideal god to create.

So, in order to be a good, moral person, one must believe in god. A very specific god too - yours. So, every atheist, agnostic, Buddhist, Hindu, Pagan, Jew, Muslim etc are immoral people who simply live how they want and do what they want because they're not accountable to your god? Not to mention that the idea that fear of punishment from god is what drives Christians to be moral people is kind of sick - it tells me that Christians don't want to be good people, but they do it because they have to. What kind of morality is that?

That's quite an absolute statement from someone who might know 1% of all the knowledge in the world,universe,do you think that could leave room for error on your part, quite possible there is a 99% chance of the knowledge you have not yet come across that could proves God exists.

I could very well say the same thing about you. Do you believe that Christianity is without a doubt the only true religion out there? That is also quite an abosolute statement for someone who thinks they know everthing.
However, my statement was not an absolute one, I am just using your own argument to invalidate said argument. If you as a Christian believe that man is naturally sinful and nobody, including Christians, lack the capacity fo sin, then sin is eveywhere on earth including in your own church. You also said that "God cannot be in the presence of sin". So, the logical conclusion is that God cannot be present on earth.

God does'nt exist ,why because your mind can grasp His presence

Or, God only exists because you need him to, and can't be a decent human being without the fear of god's wrath to punish you for your misdeeds. Some of us don't need such moralistic hand-holding to live ethical and fulfilled lives.

 

[roli]

[

quote=Buttercup]What about the billions of people who do not know Christ, Roli? Those who believe with all their heart, soul and mind in another religion?

Jesus says I am the way,truth and life,those who come to him he reveals himself to them through the power of the Holy Spirit, not intellect
If you believe God or Jesus in your head and heart that's great ,but he does not become a intimate relationship with assurance and certainity of His presence until you receive Jesus into your heart.
Well I can only say buttercup,that to enter into the presence of the God of the bible there always had to be an animal sacrifice by the priests for all the people and it had to be the best sacrifice among all the others,that was proof to God that the one who sacrificed it,took his best, but it also had to be done according to God's specifics.

But first the preist had to be cleansed from His sin before he entered into the Holy of Holies where God's presence dwelt,otherwise they would drag out the priest and send another priest in.
You see they tied a bell around the foot of the priest and if he fell dead because he was not cleansed of his sin,they would drag him out and send in another
There had to be a blood sacrifice as the bible says ,in the blood is life and the it had to be the most purest,undefiled,clean sacrifice.
Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins
The blood of bulls and goats could not take away the sins of men only temporarily
Why blood ,it was the commodity that God would approve of.
The blood always was the key to a coveant ,it sealed and set in motion an eternal coveant with man and God and that is what God did by sending Jesus.

He was pure ,sinless( beyond us to comprehend)and therefore sent to be the perfect sacrifice for all man.
Jesus not only paid our price for sin by his substituionary death on the cross ,he rose from the grave and defeated death.So that we could live forever.
You may know all this but my point is that no other religious leader has ever claimed to do such a thing and no man on earth could be so pure before God only in their own eyes to be an acceptable sacrifice.
That is what Jesus did ,He came from the father in heaven as several scriptures clearly show and was approved to be perfect conformed in the likeness of sinful man to be the atoning sacrifice for man.

They think you are wrong you understand. Let's say you are wrong about Christ. Would it be fair for God to toss you into hell for making the wrong choice regarding religion when you have only a book to base your decision upon?

How can I be wrong,it's truth we all are looking for,if I was once in the dark of who he is,heaven and hell,peace,understanding and asked Jesus in my heart and now I am totally aware of Christ as He lives in me and I feel it beyond words but also through the witness and assurance or confirmation of the Holy Spirit who resides in me and every born again believer. I don't need to defend,excuse or convince anyone,He is real and my sins are forgiven,heaven is my home and I know for certain as do born again believers.
Not because the bible says so ,or some preacher,but the Holy Spirit(key word) confirms to me.

How could we have such a harsh judgement placed upon us when there are so many choices? We cannot know for absolute certainty which choice is right. It's an emotional decision without factual basis. How can a God condemn us to hell with so little evidence that we've made the right choice?

[/QUOTE]
When we make Christ our savior He says I will come and dwell within Him,that is a hard concept to grasp ,but nevertheless it is an experience of every born again believer.But what clinches it and affirms is the power of the Holy Spirit
It may be an emotional feeling you have but it is a tangible and real presence you experience when He moves in and takes up residence within your heart.
The bible says and as well as experience His Spirit will testify to man's spirit that you are born from above.
Have you ever had that assurance and witness in your spirit.

 

[roli]

Ah, I see....you have to believe that he exists first befor you can find him. Clever, but not convincing.

Creation is the evidence you need to consider there is an intelligent designer,to call upon him in your sarcasim and logic only push God further away.
But carry on,God loves you so much ,He still places breathe in your lungs in hopes you will turn to him today, regardless of your sarcasim, but there will come a day when we all die and truth will be revealed regardless of our philosophies and rational thinking

Mind you, I pray that many will open their eyes to the truth before they are subject to the tradgedies of life,but man never seems to learn that way.

It's ironic how many call out to God when tradgedy strikes,people die,illness arrives, such as 9/11,hundreds of thousands who never called on God before, call on him as if he was some kind of a sugar daddy, crying for help ,hungry for answers and reasons as to why,praying ,blaming ,repenting,weeping,
Asking for mercy etc. etc. etc.

The philosopher to the scientist,from the house wife to the teenager, but you will never see them admit that openly or call on him now, why? all is well, it came close but did'nt personally affect us.
That is what it will take in North American culture, a catastrophy, a stripping away,I feel it coming.
There is so much pride and arrogance thinking we are somehow wiser than the one who created us,.........hummmmmm......but 9/11 showed different.

You might say that is typical of God to do such a thing,ya well if it wakes people up to call on him for salvation, to avoid an eternal saparation from Him would you not say it is worth it.
If I had to punch you in the face to get your attention of impending danger ahead, as you would not listen to truth,you would be indebted to me if you became aware of what I spared you from.something with far worse consequences than the displeasure of my fist on in your face.
Does it strike you as abnormal behavior how society at large ran to God,maybe not you ,but many.
How churches were full for a couple weeks, as man found himself at the end of his means and in desparate places.
The fear and trapidation bypassed all atheistic agnostic views and seemed to caused man to run to the pews and that is what it will take for our society to come to God.
We are to rich and have need of nothing,I am smart and free to do as I please.

I won;t convince you by mere intellectual reasoning or arguements.

God's word says,the pride of their countenance man won't seek after God,he actually resists the proud and hides from those who mock and ridicule.
But warns of His day which He will render to each according to their deeds

 

[Mister_T]

How can I be wrong,it's truth we all are looking for

Easy. You're a human being. And as a human being, we have limited understanding. There is no possible way for us to be 100% certain of the complete inner workings of the Universe. That is hard for certain "movements" to swallow; Atheist and Religious alike.

Just because a church declares something, doesn't make it so since we are prone to error and corruption.

 

[Mister_T]

As you were contemplating becoming a Christian, did the thought of ending up in Hell influence your decision to become a Christian?

Not at all. If I go to Hell for being the person I am, then I go to Hell. Only God can make that descision.

I will try to be the best person I can and defend what I feel is right. No amount of preaching is going to conform me to follow a group of people who use fear and guilt as a manipulation tactic.

 

[Katzpur]

...I do find it fishy that Zoroaster (Zoroastrianism) was the first to come up with a fiery hell, heaven, a savior for mankind born of a virgin, angels and demons, etc. It points me again to the question, how do we really know which religion is true? And how much influence has Christianity borrowed from other religions? It certainly is true that the Jews borrowed pagan Gods...why couldn't they have borrowed parts of the story of Christ and heaven and hell as well?

Well, as usual, Mormonism has an answer.

Perhaps all of these different religions originated from the same source. I believe that God revealed the entire scope of His Plan of Salvation for the human family to Adam. In other words, Adam knew, among other truths, that a Savior would be born to a virgin thousands of years in the future. This knowledge was passed down through generation after generation, sometimes being corrupted to a certain extent by the philosophies of men, by superstition, myth and by simple misunderstanding. To me, the idea that similar teachings have sprung from many diverse religions is not proof that none of them are to be believed, but evidence that God has given the same truths to all of His children, regardless of where or when they may have lived.

 

[robtex]

Well, as usual, Mormonism has an answer. [/color]

Katz, what is hell in mormonism. Is it in the center of the earth like in other religions or does the mormon Satan (am I saying that correctly?) reside in Kolar with the other Gods? Also, I know you and the other mormons have a different perspective on how one goes to hell, can you share that with us so we can understand the mormon posts on this thread? wl:

 

[Katzpur]

Katz, what is hell in mormonism.

When I first read this statement, I read it as, "Katz, what the hell is Mormonism?"

Is it in the center of the earth like in other religions or does the mormon Satan (am I saying that correctly?) reside in Kolar with the other Gods? Also, I know you and the other mormons have a different perspective on how one goes to hell, can you share that with us so we can understand the mormon posts on this thread? wl:

Hell, in Mormonism, is more accurately described as "Outer Darkness." It is essentially the place where a truly tiny minority of God's children will spend eternity totally removed from His glory.

To us, Satan is an actual force, a spirit being whose existence is spent trying to draw humanity away from God. His presence can be felt wherever wickedness and depravity exist. I'm not sure what you mean by your refernce to Satan "residing in Kolar with the other Gods." You're going to have to help me out before I'm able to give you an answer that makes sense.

I'm not sure which Mormons besides me have contributed to this thread, and I don't have time to go back and read their posts right now. However, if you'd like to read my posts number 11 and 17 on page 2 of this thread, they should pretty comprehensively address your question as to who we believe will ultimately go to Hell.

 

[MaddLlama]

Creation is the evidence you need to consider there is an intelligent designer,to call upon him in your sarcasim and logic only push God further away.

Actually, the "creation" just makes me more interested in earth and evolutionary sciences, not in god.

There is so much pride and arrogance thinking we are somehow wiser than the one who created us,.........hummmmmm......but 9/11 showed different.

You might say that is typical of God to do such a thing,ya well if it wakes people up to call on him for salvation, to avoid an eternal saparation from Him would you not say it is worth it.

So, you're saying that god sent the terrorists to New York to kill all those people to make us "wake up" and see how silly it is of us not to worship him?

If I had to punch you in the face to get your attention of impending danger ahead, as you would not listen to truth,you would be indebted to me if you became aware of what I spared you from.something with far worse consequences than the displeasure of my fist on in your face.

And, since the danger you're speaking of is not immenent or apparent and is most likely all in your head, I'd probably have to punch you back.

 

[Buttercup]

Well, as usual, Mormonism has an answer. [/color]

Perhaps all of these different religions originated from the same source. I believe that God revealed the entire scope of His Plan of Salvation for the human family to Adam. In other words, Adam knew, among other truths, that a Savior would be born to a virgin thousands of years in the future. This knowledge was passed down through generation after generation, sometimes being corrupted to a certain extent by the philosophies of men, by superstition, myth and by simple misunderstanding. To me, the idea that similar teachings have sprung from many diverse religions is not proof that none of them are to be believed, but evidence that God has given the same truths to all of His children, regardless of where or when they may have lived.

I could almost go for that except why not believe in the Zoroastrian version of who the Savior is then? They had the idea first...why isn't that version correct? Or, why not wait and see who the Jew's coming Savior is? Do you see the problems there are with the earth having so many religions? All claim to be THE way. Even though I respect the Mormon church, they still claim to be the only true church. How can they all be the truth?

When you have so many religions claiming to have absolute truth, how can a finite human being make such an important choice regarding salvation? And once again, how fair is it for a person to be tossed into hell for picking the wrong religion fervent though they may be to find the truth?

It doesn't make sense and the more I think about it the more convinced I am that there is no hell.

 

[Buttercup]

.
It's ironic how many call out to God when tradgedy strikes,people die,illness arrives, such as 9/11,hundreds of thousands who never called on God before, call on him as if he was some kind of a sugar daddy, crying for help ,hungry for answers and reasons as to why,praying ,blaming ,repenting,weeping,
Asking for mercy etc. etc. etc.

The philosopher to the scientist,from the house wife to the teenager, but you will never see them admit that openly or call on him now, why? all is well, it came close but did'nt personally affect us.
That is what it will take in North American culture, a catastrophy, a stripping away,I feel it coming.
There is so much pride and arrogance thinking we are somehow wiser than the one who created us,.........hummmmmm......but 9/11 showed different.

You're losing me now, Roli. Not much love in your post, sorry. I don't do well with threats and intimidation tactics to try to bring me to God. Why do you think I'm sick of hearing about Hell?

If I had to punch you in the face to get your attention of impending danger ahead, as you would not listen to truth,you would be indebted to me if you became aware of what I spared you from.something with far worse consequences than the displeasure of my fist on in your face.

I don't know if it's just me....but I found this paragraph kind of rude.

 

[Katzpur]

I could almost go for that except why not believe in the Zoroastrian version of who the Savior is then? They had the idea first...why isn't that version correct?

First relative to who and what? Certainly not relative to Adam, Noah, Moses, Abraham, Isaiah and others who knew of the Savior long before His coming.

Or, why not wait and see who the Jew's coming Savior is? Do you see the problems there are with the earth having so many religions? All claim to be THE way. Even though I respect the Mormon church, they still claim to be the only true church. How can they all be the truth?

I see where you're coming from and you have a valid point. The simple truth of the matter is that they can't all be the truth. It is mathematically impossible for there to be more than one religion that is completely true, since there are no two religions that are teach exactly the same doctrines. Of course, it is also entirely possible that no religion (including Mormonism) is completely true.

When you have so many religions claiming to have absolute truth, how can a finite human being make such an important choice regarding salvation?

I wish I could give you the answer to that. Unfortunately, since I, too, am a finite human being, I can't. I am willing to accept the idea that there are many paths leading back to God. I just believe that ultimately, there is only one gate by which we can enter into His presence.

And once again, how fair is it for a person to be tossed into hell for picking the wrong religion fervent though they may be to find the truth?

It isn't. Which is why it's absolutely not going to work that way. This is the reason why everyone is going to be able to continue to learn for a long, long, long time after they have left mortality. We think of 70, 80 or 90 years as being a long time, but it's really not long at all -- especially with respect to making a decision that may ultimately affect us throughout eternity. As I tried to explain before, but probably not very successfully, truth will be a lot clearer to us in the Spirit World. In the end, knowing the truth will not require guesswork. It will still involve faith, but it will be much more obvious, and the only ones who will choose not to follow it will be choosing not to follow it out of pure stubbornness, and for no other reason.

Now, if you can come up with a more logical, more equitable explanation that that, I'd like to hear it!