CHRISTIANS ONLY: Trinitarian Christianity - Monotheistic or Polytheistic?

[Exaltist Ethan]

I am confident in saying that Christians view themselves as monotheistic. Whether they are Unitarian or trinitarian Christians, all Christians see themselves with the belief of one God. Trinitarians, which make up the vast majority of Christianity, see God in three forms: The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit.

If I were a Christian, this is how I would perceive it. The Father created Heaven and the Earth, found his sovereignty with the monotheistic nation of Israel, established his reign of various prophets and his covenant with them. God spoke to certain prophets of his plan to raise a man who would commit no sin and was born of a virgin, this became Jesus. When the Father created Jesus, the Father ceased to exist. Jesus lived his life as man and God, and when he died on the cross and rose from the dead, his essence was raised into Heaven, and dissolved, becoming the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the reason why humanity has thus had a huge incline in modern prophets with the sciences and liberal arts. The Holy Spirit made humans aware of their surroundings.

In this contraption I have made, The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit exist separately from each other, but each one of them is distinctly God as we now perceive it.

However, the common trinitarian Christian argument is that all three of these Gods exist at the same time. That The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit are all eternal. Even the Jehovah Witnesses believe Christ to first exist as Michael the Archangel.

If The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit all exist separately and at the same time, doesn't this make Christianity a polytheistic religion? Specifically tri-theism? Think about it. Yes, I know, Christians will make the allegory that water can be solid, liquid and gas as we know them, but if the water exists as solid, liquid and gas all at the same time, doesn't that lead the distinction into three Gods rather than one?

I am very confused about all of this. Something isn't adding up. Trinitarianism to me sounds like a fancy way of calling yourself a polytheist whilst still trying to hold yourself a monotheistic way of living.

I would like to try to talk to a standard Christian about this that helps me understand this confusion I have with the religion. It really doesn't make sense to me... Now, I have heard that Unitarian Christians believe that the Father is only God, and Oneness Pentecostals believe that the Son is only God, both of these arguments make more sense to me than the commonly perceived trinitarian monotheism that is popular in Christianity today.

As far as my own beliefs, what I hold to is a pantheistic understanding of trinitarian monotheism. The Omniverse, Entropy and Extropy all exist separately from each other, none of which is God without the other two. When all of them line up perfectly with each other, we create a Superverse - which is my conception of God. But The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit exist separately and together at the same time, so it doesn't really make sense to call Christianity a monotheistic religion.

Please, I would like a Christian to educate me so I am less confused about this matter.

 

[Brickjectivity]

If The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit all exist separately and at the same time, doesn't this make Christianity a polytheistic religion? Specifically tri-theism? Think about it. Yes, I know, Christians will make the allegory that water can be solid, liquid and gas as we know them, but if the water exists as solid, liquid and gas all at the same time, doesn't that lead the distinction into three Gods rather than one?

I am very confused about all of this. Something isn't adding up. Trinitarianism to me sounds like a fancy way of calling yourself a polytheist whilst still trying to hold yourself a monotheistic way of living.

I understand the confusion. In answer to the thread title: Different Christians interpret this creed differently. Some actually are polytheists in my opinion, and some are not. The creed is a surface view of Christianity. It is actually not the core, nor is it the hinge. Also, Christianity is not supposed to be something you completely learn from other people. There are many things that are not explained, many things that are actually misdirection much. An example of this are some of the things Jesus says which misdirect people. They are phrases he says which he knows some (or many) people will take the wrong way. They are like filters which allow some but not others to pass. There is a particular approach that one is supposed to take to reach Christ, and entering by some other way is not encouraged. That is part of the function of the trinity: to filter. It does not make anyone either polytheist or not; because it is interpreted by the soul of the individual or perhaps not so much interpreted (with words).

You also need to know that in Christian canon, thinking and words are considered imperfect. There is not or is not supposed to be strong reliance upon particular definitions. Its understood that people will hear the same words differently or not at all, and it is understood that our minds change. Even if we have just known something it can disintegrate from our minds the moment we think about something else. Therefore the Logos is kept among people rather than in individuals. --> And therefore the understanding of the trinity is not necessarily something one individual explains to another.

 

[InChrist]

I am confident in saying that Christians view themselves as monotheistic. Whether they are Unitarian or trinitarian Christians, all Christians see themselves with the belief of one God. Trinitarians, which make up the vast majority of Christianity, see God in three forms: The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit.

If I were a Christian, this is how I would perceive it. The Father created Heaven and the Earth, found his sovereignty with the monotheistic nation of Israel, established his reign of various prophets and his covenant with them. God spoke to certain prophets of his plan to raise a man who would commit no sin and was born of a virgin, this became Jesus. When the Father created Jesus, the Father ceased to exist. Jesus lived his life as man and God, and when he died on the cross and rose from the dead, his essence was raised into Heaven, and dissolved, becoming the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the reason why humanity has thus had a huge incline in modern prophets with the sciences and liberal arts. The Holy Spirit made humans aware of their surroundings.

In this contraption I have made, The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit exist separately from each other, but each one of them is distinctly God as we now perceive it.

However, the common trinitarian Christian argument is that all three of these Gods exist at the same time. That The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit are all eternal. Even the Jehovah Witnesses believe Christ to first exist as Michael the Archangel.

If The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit all exist separately and at the same time, doesn't this make Christianity a polytheistic religion? Specifically tri-theism? Think about it. Yes, I know, Christians will make the allegory that water can be solid, liquid and gas as we know them, but if the water exists as solid, liquid and gas all at the same time, doesn't that lead the distinction into three Gods rather than one?

I am very confused about all of this. Something isn't adding up. Trinitarianism to me sounds like a fancy way of calling yourself a polytheist whilst still trying to hold yourself a monotheistic way of living.

I would like to try to talk to a standard Christian about this that helps me understand this confusion I have with the religion. It really doesn't make sense to me... Now, I have heard that Unitarian Christians believe that the Father is only God, and Oneness Pentecostals believe that the Son is only God, both of these arguments make more sense to me than the commonly perceived trinitarian monotheism that is popular in Christianity today.

As far as my own beliefs, what I hold to is a pantheistic understanding of trinitarian monotheism. The Omniverse, Entropy and Extropy all exist separately from each other, none of which is God without the other two. When all of them line up perfectly with each other, we create a Superverse - which is my conception of God. But The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit exist separately and together at the same time, so it doesn't really make sense to call Christianity a monotheistic religion.

Please, I would like a Christian to educate me so I am less confused about this matter.

I believe in ONE God, existing as three spiritual Persons. Now what I think that means is that these three Persons are united and unique in the “Eternal God” qualities they share; omniscient, omnipotence, omnipresence and other qualities of love, justice, mercy, etc. According to the biblical scriptures, there is no other living entity anywhere who processes these eternal “God qualities“. This makes them One God. Unique, like none other.

Ultimately, I think the concept of three Persons being One God is a bit beyond finite human understanding, at this point. But the above is basically my understanding.

 

[Exaltist Ethan]

That is part of the function of the trinity: to filter. It does not make anyone either polytheist or not; because it is interpreted by the soul of the individual.

So God is 1/3 The Father, 1/3 The Son, and 1/3 The Holy Spirit? 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 = 1 God?

 

[Brickjectivity]

Having made all of that mumbo jumbo excuse, I will try to explain that there are interpretations of the trinity which are consistent with hard monotheism. These are consistent with the canon, too; but that is neither here nor there. The canon is not a closed system; so you can interpret it more than one way.

 

[Brickjectivity]

So God is 1/3 The Father, 1/3 The Son, and 1/3 The Holy Spirit? 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 = 1 God?

Some people would agree with you. I don't, but that is Ok. That is Ok if the truth is hidden in God and is above all of us. To some of us it may be clarified. There is mention in scripture of a spiritual gift called "The ability to understand mysteries." This implies that not everyone can understand them. If the trinity is a mystery, then it follows that it may not be something that just anyone has the gifting to understand.

 

[Exaltist Ethan]

Some people would agree with you.

Dude, I don't believe in any of this. I am just trying to understand the standard trinitarian Christian point of view. I have already expressed in the beginning of this thread what I truly believe and what I would believe if I held a Christian point of view. But Christians tend not to believe that The Father and The Son dissolved but rather believe that all three, including The Holy Spirit, are all eternal.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Dude, I don't believe in any of this. I am just trying to understand the standard trinitarian Christian point of view. I have already expressed in the beginning of this thread what I truly believe and what I would believe if I held a Christian point of view. But Christians tend not to believe that The Father and The Son dissolved but rather believe that all three, including The Holy Spirit, are all eternal.

There is technically not a standard point of view. There are philosophical systems for deriving the trinity, but that is a lot of work. Most Christians don't understand the philosophical derivation. Most people hear the words and then come up with their own interpretation of how it probably works.

 

[Exaltist Ethan]

There is technically not a standard point of view. There are philosophical systems for deriving the trinity, but that is a lot of work. Most Christians don't understand the philosophical derivation. Most people hear the words and then come up with their own interpretation of how it probably works.

Just like I did. In theory it could be possible to think that the Christian God, in all three parts are eternal, but only one of the forces are intact at one, thus making it a monotheistic religion. In fact, if I were Christian that's probably how I would derive trinitarianism: three eternal forces but only one God intact at all times.

 

[Windwalker]

When the Father created Jesus, the Father ceased to exist.

Which of course would be strange why Jesus would pray to the Father while he was a human then. Perhaps he was only just putting on a show for his followers?

Jesus lived his life as man and God, and when he died on the cross and rose from the dead, his essence was raised into Heaven,

And in the meantime, the eternal, omnipresence God occupied the space of a human body for 30 years and was nowhere else to be found in the infinite Universe? This too seems strange indeed.

and dissolved, becoming the Holy Spirit.

So God can dissolve? Meaning, God is limited in space and time, a sort of plasma or phantom? I don't believe any Christian imagines God quite like this.

The Holy Spirit is the reason why humanity has thus had a huge incline in modern prophets with the sciences and liberal arts.

This doesn't explain the great advances that the ancient world had in the sciences and the arts either then. The ancients had some very advanced technology for the time. And furthermore, the advances of modern science are due to removing the supernatural from the equation, so it's not like we can consider its insights exactly as mystically inspired divine revelation, can we?

The Holy Spirit made humans aware of their surroundings.

Humans have been made aware of the surroundings from the first they realized they could manipulate nature to survive. If you believe the Holy Spirit didn't exist until Jesus dissolved into that form, this is a problem for your theology.

In this contraption I have made, The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit exist separately from each other, but each one of them is distinctly God as we now perceive it.

Basically your saying you hold a type of modalism view, except that instead of God existing eternally in three modes or manifestations of being, the Father quit existing while Jesus was on earth, then both the Father and Jesus quit existing and became the Holy Spirit? As you call it as a "contraption I have made", that seems an apt description for it to me.

If The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit all exist separately and at the same time, doesn't this make Christianity a polytheistic religion?

I do not believe any Trinitarian considers the "persons" of the Trinity as existing separately. If you draw any boundary around God at all, it ceases to be God at all.

Think of it in terms like this. Does Infinite have any edges to it? Is the Infinite separate from anything whatsoever? How can it be, and still remain Infinite, pray tell?

Specifically tri-theism? Think about it. Yes, I know, Christians will make the allegory that water can be solid, liquid and gas as we know them, but if the water exists as solid, liquid and gas all at the same time, doesn't that lead the distinction into three Gods rather than one?

I personally don't find such analogies all that helpful to describe something that is Infinite in nature. But for the sake of argument, these "three" are all H20, yet we can relate to H20 in the form of liquid, solid, and gas, can't we? It has more to do with how we perceive it, than to do with the form itself that H20 appears to us as.

I would like to try to talk to a standard Christian

I'm not exactly sure what a "standard" Christian is? I think Christians all have different ways in which they relate to the Absolute. But how one thinks theologically, really isn't what makes someone a Christian, though I know there are many who imagines "right beliefs" is where they find their spiritual anchor in.

Oneness Pentecostals believe that the Son is only God

That's not what Oneness Pentecostals teach. They teach there is One God, in three modes or manifestations. To quote a common saying they use, "He was the Father in creation, the Son in redemption, and the Holy Spirit in emanation or in the church". One God, who is Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. That is what they teach.

trinitarian monotheism that is popular in Christianity today.

Actually, I find Trinitarianism more appealing particularly because it defies reason. A God that can be reasoned, is no God at all. It's an image of the mind. But Trinitarianism is paradoxical in nature, and when you are talking about the Absolute, or the Infinite, logic and reason will always break down into paradoxes. So if anything, the fact that it confuses you, actually adds credence to it, paradoxically speaking.

As far as my own beliefs, what I hold to is a pantheistic understanding of trinitarian monotheism. The Omniverse, Entropy and Extropy all exist separately from each other, none of which is God without the other two.

Do they exist separately from each other? Or is that just how we divide them up with our minds, and are minds are not the measure of Reality? I'll answer that for you. Yes, it's just how we divide the world up into separate bits, which in Reality are not actually separate at all.

Furthermore, as already touched upon, if God is Infinite, the even if you say this part here is separate from that part there, are you saying that God cannot exist in a separate part, wholly and fully Infinite in itself, without even considering the other parts known or unknown? If so, that that is not pantheism. Pantheism is about the immanence of God in all things, not the "sum total of the parts" makes up "God", as you seem to be suggesting here.

So you would be wrong to say, "None of which is God without the other two". What you are failing to understand is the Mystery of "God" as it were, which can be fully 100% Divine, even in the smallest possible particle of existence, or in the whole itself. It is neither more God, nor less God.

Think of it like the wetness of the waves of the Ocean. It's not the ocean itself, nor the individual waves, but the same wetness everywhere, neither more wet, nor less wet.

When all of them line up perfectly with each other, we create a Superverse - which is my conception of God.

So you are able to break apart and destroy God then by dividing the world? That is what happens, but that is an illusion of the mind only, not actual Reality itself. God is "nondual" in nature, which is paradoxically both the One and the Many. So.... this seems to support Trinitarian thought, much more than claiming God changed forms, or ceased to exist in some fashion or other, or has edges or boundaries.

Again, this is a mystical realizion, that can be apprehended, but by moving beyond dualistic conceptual structural realities, which is where all reason will be doomed to failure when trying to comprehend what is by its very nature, incomprehensible.

 

[Vouthon]

If The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit all exist separately and at the same time, doesn't this make Christianity a polytheistic religion? Specifically tri-theism? Think about it. Yes, I know, Christians will make the allegory that water can be solid, liquid and gas as we know them, but if the water exists as solid, liquid and gas all at the same time, doesn't that lead the distinction into three Gods rather than one?

I am very confused about all of this. Something isn't adding up. Trinitarianism to me sounds like a fancy way of calling yourself a polytheist whilst still trying to hold yourself a monotheistic way of living.

Hello Ethan,

Thanks for your very interesting post.

I appreciate how confusing the claims of Trinitarianism can sound to those outside of the orthodox Christian fold.

One of the reasons for this is that the Church Fathers, the early ante-Nicene theologians who formulated the language and terminology we still use when discussing the Trinity today, were not using words like 'person' in the way we understand it today in modern English (i.e. distinct conscious agents with their own minds and independent wills). We are removed, far removed, from their classical Koine Greek and Latin milieu.

Here is my own explanation of the Trinity, without recourse to the traditional creedal language of person, essence and consubstantiality:

Have this going on in your head like a mantra:

Trinitarianism - God relating to Himself
(we're talking about three distinct manners of relating of the one and same Being to Himself)

Tritheism - three separate divine beings relating to one another, like separate human persons united by a common cause.

Modalism - God relating to us (I hate modalism the worst, because it presents it as God having three 'names' and appearing in three forms, when its one name and reality that is Father, Son and Holy Spirit - immanently, not just in relation to us but in relation to Himself).​

As a Trinitarian, I believe there is one God: a single supreme conscious being, one Eternal Mind, who is the self-existent cause of everything.

This divine being has three eternal manners of relating to Himself within his own Mind which we traditionally call (by analogy) the Father, the Son and the Spirit.

We can use St. Augustine's analogy with the human mind to understand why the divine mind exists in and as three relations to Itself: the mind itself, the knowledge with which it knows itself (self-awareness) and the love with which it loves itself.

Father is the mind, Son is the self-knowledge of the Father (his thought) that arises from the mind and the Spirit is the love that the Mind has for Itself, and through his generated thought everything else that is created by Him.

Patristic scholars note today that the Church Fathers understood the "personality" of God as being found in the one essence, not the persons (which are just really distinct manners of that one personality and mind relating to Itself).

As a Catholic priest Fr. Kennet Baker S.J. put it:

"The Son or Word (cf. Jn 1) proceeds from the Father by intellectual generation. This means that the thought or the Word of the Father is a perfect image of himself. This Word, however, is not separate or distinct from the Father, since his thinking is identical with his existence.

Since God's intellectual activity is identified with himself, it follows that he naturally understands himself. The object of his thought is not something outside of himself something distinct from himself; rather, it is his own essence. Therefore, his Word or thought proceeds from himself naturally, as a father naturally generates a son."​

We don't pray when we bless ourselves with the sign of the cross, "In the names of the Father and of the Son and the Holy Spirit...", that would be polytheism but rather "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit", one name for one Being, one I, but thrice over. Not three I's.

 

[metis]

Trinitarianism to me sounds like a fancy way of calling yourself a polytheist whilst still trying to hold yourself a monotheistic way of living.

From the general Catholic perspective, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are of the essence of God.

es·sence
[ˈesəns]
NOUN

1. the intrinsic nature or indispensable quality of something, especially something abstract, that determines its character:
   "conflict is the essence of drama"
   • philosophy
     a property or group of properties of something without which it would not exist or be what it is.

 

[Exaltist Ethan]

Which of course would be strange why Jesus would pray to the Father while he was a human then. Perhaps he was only just putting on a show for his followers?

If God created a nation for you, established prophets and ultimately birthed your seed, even if he no longer existed wouldn't that be enough to worship something like that? But anyways, I already addressed later on in this thread that I would believe all three would be eternal, even if only one of them has a driving force.

And in the meantime, the eternal, omnipresence God occupied the space of a human body for 30 years and was nowhere else to be found in the infinite Universe? This too seems strange indeed.

That's probably why I don't believe it! But it's also weird how everything on Earth is already so perfect as it is - why not throw a perfect being in it too.l

So God can dissolve? Meaning, God is limited in space and time, a sort of plasma or phantom? I don't believe any Christian imagines God quite like this.

The word I was really looking for was transform. Sorry.

This doesn't explain the great advances that the ancient world had in the sciences and the arts either then. The ancients had some very advanced technology for the time. And furthermore, the advances of modern science are due to removing the supernatural from the equation, so it's not like we can consider its insights exactly as mystically inspired divine revelation, can we?

The great advances that the ancient world had is nothing compared to the world in which we live right now. And modern science isn't "removing" the supernatural from the equation, we have just learned to understand what was already supernatural to begin with.

Humans have been made aware of the surroundings from the first they realized they could manipulate nature to survive. If you believe the Holy Spirit didn't exist until Jesus dissolved into that form, this is a problem for your theology.

It could have been guided by the Father first though, who directly instructed us on how to survive until the Son and the Holy Spirit came afterwards...

I actually don't even believe this, I am not even arguing from a point which I agree with myself. I believe that the modern man came from how many people exist now. For example, roughly eight billion people exist now, and the total amount of people to ever exist is about eighty billion. One out of ten people that ever existed exist right now, whereas one lifetime is consumed in only eighty years. Do the math.

I am simply trying to make a point across about this, about a false belief that I believe Christians could have.

Basically your saying you hold a type of modalism view, except that instead of God existing eternally in three modes or manifestations of being, the Father quit existing while Jesus was on earth, then both the Father and Jesus quit existing and became the Holy Spirit? As you call it as a "contraption I have made", that seems an apt description for it to me.

Dude, I don't even know what "modalism" is. I'm not a modalist, a Christian, or any other stupid box you want to put me in.

I do not believe any Trinitarian considers the "persons" of the Trinity as existing separately. If you draw any boundary around God at all, it ceases to be God at all.

"Some infinities are larger than others." - John Green.

Think of it in terms like this. Does Infinite have any edges to it? Is the Infinite separate from anything whatsoever? How can it be, and still remain Infinite, pray tell?

Infinity doesn't exist, but as long as things keep expanding exponentially it might as well. Doesn't infinity expand? Or is it constant? I don't know.

I personally don't find such analogies all that helpful to describe something that is Infinite in nature. But for the sake of argument, these "three" are all H20, yet we can relate to H20 in the form of liquid, solid, and gas, can't we? It has more to do with how we perceive it, than to do with the form itself that H20 appears to us as.

So trinitarian Christians perceive one God in three forms. Gotcha.

I'm not exactly sure what a "standard" Christian is? I think Christians all have different ways in which they relate to the Absolute. But how one thinks theologically, really isn't what makes someone a Christian, though I know there are many who imagines "right beliefs" is where they find their spiritual anchor in.

I just meant a standard trinitarian Christian. Why are you arguing with me about the word "standard" anyways?

That's not what Oneness Pentecostals teach. They teach there is One God, in three modes or manifestations. To quote a common saying they use, "He was the Father in creation, the Son in redemption, and the Holy Spirit in emanation or in the church". One God, who is Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. That is what they teach.

Then why are they called "Oneness Pentecostals"?

Actually, I find Trinitarianism more appealing particularly because it defies reason. A God that can be reasoned, is no God at all. It's an image of the mind. But Trinitarianism is paradoxical in nature, and when you are talking about the Absolute, or the Infinite, logic and reason will always break down into paradoxes. So if anything, the fact that it confuses you, actually adds credence to it, paradoxically speaking.

This is the kind of thing that led the user "We Never Know" to leave this forum. This idea that, "there are paradoxes nobody can understand." And use that argument as a justification of their claims. In order to exist you must first define what it is to exist. If you claim subjectivism or paradoxical thinking, it removes the ability for other people to relate to you at all.

Do they exist separately from each other? Or is that just how we divide them up with our minds, and are minds are not the measure of Reality? I'll answer that for you. Yes, it's just how we divide the world up into separate bits, which in Reality are not actually separate at all.

Dude, all I know is that I have one life which I try to understand reality from. Even if I have other lives somewhere else I can't and won't be able to remember anything from any other life anyways. I am just trying to understand the paradox of monotheistic trinitarian Christianity.

Furthermore, as already touched upon, if God is Infinite, the even if you say this part here is separate from that part there, are you saying that God cannot exist in a separate part, wholly and fully Infinite in itself, without even considering the other parts known or unknown? If so, that that is not pantheism. Pantheism is about the immanence of God in all things, not the "sum total of the parts" makes up "God", as you seem to be suggesting here.

You don't think I know what pantheism implies? It views nature itself as God. Not even The Omniverse is infinite. There will always be lines drawn where lines haven't existed before. It's the nature of The Omniverse. Change is how we perceive these actions, both entropy and extropy.

So you would be wrong to say, "None of which is God without the other two". What you are failing to understand is the Mystery of "God" as it were, which can be fully 100% Divine, even in the smallest possible particle of existence, or in the whole itself. It is neither more God, nor less God.

You aren't defining anything. You aren't really saying anything worth of value or substance with this. You are throwing around the word of God as if it means nothing at all. And maybe that's how you see God, but I don't.

Think of it like the wetness of the waves of the Ocean. It's not the ocean itself, nor the individual waves, but the same wetness everywhere, neither more wet, nor less wet.

The more waves there is the more wet things get. What are you trying to even imply by this?

So you are able to break apart and destroy God then by dividing the world? That is what happens, but that is an illusion of the mind only, not actual Reality itself. God is "nondual" in nature, which is paradoxically both the One and the Many. So.... this seems to support Trinitarian thought, much more than claiming God changed forms, or ceased to exist in some fashion or other, or has edges or boundaries.

This sounds like an argument substantiated by monist monotheism and not by a standard Christian, which typically believes in dualism - the soul, immaterial presences. I specifically said in the title Christians Only. Not only are you not a Christian, you are arguing with me in a thread which is in the Religions Q&A section, which is NOT meant for arguing at all! What is your point in even making this post?

Again, this is a mystical realizion, that can be apprehended, but by moving beyond dualistic conceptual structural realities, which is where all reason will be doomed to failure when trying to comprehend what is by its very nature, incomprehensible.

If you cannot define the very basis of our reality then you have no right to even permutate your subjective paradoxes on us. I was simply trying to understand a different point of view - one that I do not even agree with - as to understand more about I myself see reality. I am not a Christian. That is why I am asking this question to Christians, which you don't even seem to be anyways.

If you want to have a theological debate with me, take it up on PMs and leave this thread alone. I don't want to subjugate this thread with anymore of your subjective paradoxical nonsense.

 

[Exaltist Ethan]

Vouthon, you win. If I ever meet you in person I'll give you a chicken dinner myself.

 

[Brian2]

As far as my own beliefs, what I hold to is a pantheistic understanding of trinitarian monotheism. The Omniverse, Entropy and Extropy all exist separately from each other, none of which is God without the other two. When all of them line up perfectly with each other, we create a Superverse - which is my conception of God. But The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit exist separately and together at the same time, so it doesn't really make sense to call Christianity a monotheistic religion.

Please, I would like a Christian to educate me so I am less confused about this matter.

Jesus said "I and the Father are one".
Jesus said" I am in the Father and the Father is in me".
We can see a similar thing with Jesus and the Holy Spirit and with the Holy Spirit and the Father in the Bible.
Where one of them is, the other 2 are there also.
The 3 are distinct but united.
Jesus also said that the Father is the one true God.
This imo is because the Spirit and Son have their source in the Father even if they have no beginning.

 

[Thea]

Even Saint Augustine could not understand the Trinity:
What a child taught St. Augustine at the seashore

 

[Brian2]

Just like I did. In theory it could be possible to think that the Christian God, in all three parts are eternal, but only one of the forces are intact at one, thus making it a monotheistic religion. In fact, if I were Christian that's probably how I would derive trinitarianism: three eternal forces but only one God intact at all times.

"Forces" however has the implication that they are less than living. All 3 however are living, as God is a living God.

 

[pearl]

Think of it like the wetness of the waves of the Ocean. It's not the ocean itself, nor the individual waves, but the same wetness everywhere, neither more wet, nor less wet.

This is actually a pretty good analogy of the Trinity, which is a relational unity, the inner life of God shared with us through Grace. We tend to get hung up on individual 'persons', which does not reflect the understanding of person in developing the Trinitarian formula.

 

[Kenny]

I am confident in saying that Christians view themselves as monotheistic. Whether they are Unitarian or trinitarian Christians, all Christians see themselves with the belief of one God. Trinitarians, which make up the vast majority of Christianity, see God in three forms: The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit.

If I were a Christian, this is how I would perceive it. The Father created Heaven and the Earth, found his sovereignty with the monotheistic nation of Israel, established his reign of various prophets and his covenant with them. God spoke to certain prophets of his plan to raise a man who would commit no sin and was born of a virgin, this became Jesus. When the Father created Jesus, the Father ceased to exist. Jesus lived his life as man and God, and when he died on the cross and rose from the dead, his essence was raised into Heaven, and dissolved, becoming the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the reason why humanity has thus had a huge incline in modern prophets with the sciences and liberal arts. The Holy Spirit made humans aware of their surroundings.

In this contraption I have made, The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit exist separately from each other, but each one of them is distinctly God as we now perceive it.

However, the common trinitarian Christian argument is that all three of these Gods exist at the same time. That The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit are all eternal. Even the Jehovah Witnesses believe Christ to first exist as Michael the Archangel.

If The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit all exist separately and at the same time, doesn't this make Christianity a polytheistic religion? Specifically tri-theism? Think about it. Yes, I know, Christians will make the allegory that water can be solid, liquid and gas as we know them, but if the water exists as solid, liquid and gas all at the same time, doesn't that lead the distinction into three Gods rather than one?

I am very confused about all of this. Something isn't adding up. Trinitarianism to me sounds like a fancy way of calling yourself a polytheist whilst still trying to hold yourself a monotheistic way of living.

I would like to try to talk to a standard Christian about this that helps me understand this confusion I have with the religion. It really doesn't make sense to me... Now, I have heard that Unitarian Christians believe that the Father is only God, and Oneness Pentecostals believe that the Son is only God, both of these arguments make more sense to me than the commonly perceived trinitarian monotheism that is popular in Christianity today.

As far as my own beliefs, what I hold to is a pantheistic understanding of trinitarian monotheism. The Omniverse, Entropy and Extropy all exist separately from each other, none of which is God without the other two. When all of them line up perfectly with each other, we create a Superverse - which is my conception of God. But The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit exist separately and together at the same time, so it doesn't really make sense to call Christianity a monotheistic religion.

Please, I would like a Christian to educate me so I am less confused about this matter.

It is quite understandable to have it challenging one's thought process.

The easiest way, IMO, to view this is to look at the makeup of man which is made in His image and in His likeness as I quote the synthesis of it as expressed by Paul:

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Notice that the composite of who we are is expressed in 3 parts (although some would argue it is just 2 but the comprehension would be the same) - spirit, soul and body.

Three distinct parts and yet one. Neither displacing the other yet completely one. As believers we understand that the spirit of the man looks exactly like our physical body yet they have a different materiality and and different person.

It isn't that man is 1/3, 1/3 and 1/3 as each is completely you

hopefully that concept will help you in understanding.

Questions?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I am confident in saying that Christians view themselves as monotheistic. Whether they are Unitarian or trinitarian Christians, all Christians see themselves with the belief of one God. Trinitarians, which make up the vast majority of Christianity, see God in three forms: The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit.........................Please, I would like a Christian to educate me so I am less confused about this matter.

First of all, I would say the vast majority of 'Christendom' (so-called Christian but mostly in name only - Matthew 7:21-23) is who makes up the vast majority . The fake 'weed/tares' are greater in number than the ' Wheat ' Christians.
Remember: the 'weed/tares' grow together with the 'wheat' until Jesus' Glory Time of Matthew 25:31-34,37.

Psalms 90:2 lets us know God had No beginning. God existed before anything else. No starting point for God.
Whereas, pre-human heavenly Jesus, whom God sent to Earth for us, was "IN" the beginning.
Thus, Jesus was never ' before ' the beginning as his God was 'before' the beginning or start of creation.
When God sends forth His spirit (Psalms 104:30) things were created.
Jesus gives the Creator credit for creation at Revelation 4:11.
Dead Jesus did Not resurrect himself but his God resurrected him - Acts of the Apostles 3:15; 5:30; 10:40; 13:30.
Even the resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus still thinks he has a God over him - Revelation 3:12.
And as far as God's spirit is concerned, Numbers 11:17,25 lets us know God's spirit is a neuter "it' and Not a person.
Even in English we speak of a car or a ship as a 'she' although they remain a neuter "it".
Also, please consider Psalms 110 (KJV) because there we find two (2) LORD/Lord's mentioned.
The LORD (ALL Upper-Case letters ) is where the Tetragrammaton YHWH appears.
The Lord (in some lower-case letters) stands for Lord Jesus and No Tetragrammaton for Lord Jesus.
It is Not LORD God who has the archangel's voice but Lord Jesus according to 1 Thessalonians 4:16.