"Christians Furious After GA School Bans Loudspeaker Prayers at Football Games"

[Jose Fly]

Who is engaging in religious intolerance here?

I believe the only accusations of "religious intolerance" come from those wanting to use government resources to broadcast their religion.

How exactly is the atheist group Freedom From Religion Foundation or the atheist(s) they represent being oppressed?

I haven't seen anyone argue that they're being "oppressed".

Proselytizing is the action of attempting to convert someone from one religion, belief, or opinion to another. Watch the video and tell me how the prayer used was proselytizing.

By getting government pre-approval for the content of the prayers and using government resources to broadcast the prayers at a government event, a person could get the impression that the government is endorsing and promoting Christianity. That's illegal.

Perhaps, the FFRP is the one engaging in religious intolerance here. They don't really care if the prayer was Christian, Muslim, Hindu, or whatever. Do they? They only care that people not express their religion publicly. They want people to remain silent - to stop expressing themselves in a religious manner.

Not at all. Their focus is on ensuring that the government doesn't illegally promote and/or endorse religion.

Your confusion seems to center on the difference between public and private speech. When someone uses government resources to broadcast a government-approved message at a government event, that's "public speech". There are specific laws about that, one of which is that the government can't endorse or promote religion. OTOH, if a private citizen uses their own private resources to broadcast their own message on their own, that's "private speech" and is much more protected than public speech.

Understand?

Watch the video and tell me how there would be a student speech in that stadium without a loudspeaker? It's ridiculous. So... no loudspeaker = no prayer.

??????? Prayers only occur if they're broadcast over a loudspeaker? So if a student in the stands prayed on their own, it's not really a prayer?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

??????? Prayers only occur if they're broadcast over a loudspeaker? So if a student in the stands prayed on their own, it's not really a prayer?

I seem to recall a certain Palestinian Rabbi, from oh, 2000-ish years or so ago, being rather dismissive and derogatory with respect to loud, public praying.

Irregardless of that, it would appear that a Proper Prayer© requires a Prayer Leader™ who speaks the Official Prayer Words©, likely from an Official Public Prayer Handbook©, available anywhere Jesus Toast© is sold.

Apparently "God" cannot otherwise hear or answer these, if they are done silently.

Ironic. Isn't it?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Yes, or lack thereof. On a local level. I mean the community that actually uses that school.

I'm still having difficulty understanding. You seemed to indicate that you believe in personal liberties, but you also believe that it is okay for a majority group to dictate the freedoms and rights of a minority group?

 

[Ponder This]

Nope. What they are engaging in? Is enforcing the Constitution.

Unless that is fundamentally changed? They are not wrong.

There are two clauses the establishment clause and the exercise clause.

I haven't seen anyone argue that they're being "oppressed".

So you agree that the atheists are not being oppressed by the inclusion of a prayer before football games.

By getting government pre-approval for the content of the prayers and using government resources to broadcast the prayers at a government event, a person could get the impression that the government is endorsing and promoting Christianity. That's illegal.

Where's this "pre-approval" taking place?
Justice Stephen wrote about endorsing religion in the majority opinion of Santa Fe Independent School District v. Doe. That case was about the school's decision to allow proselytizing.
And do you believe the Lowndes High School in Georgia was establishing a religion? Do you believe they were proselytizing? If so, please explain how. Did you watch the video?

Not at all. Their focus is on ensuring that the government doesn't illegally promote and/or endorse religion.

Your confusion seems to center on the difference between public and private speech. When someone uses government resources to broadcast a government-approved message at a government event, that's "public speech". There are specific laws about that, one of which is that the government can't endorse or promote religion. OTOH, if a private citizen uses their own private resources to broadcast their own message on their own, that's "private speech" and is much more protected than public speech.

Understand?

Is this about the use of the loudspeaker? Are you saying the students should bring their own?

Did you watch the video of the Prayer opening the Continental Congress that I posted? Are you saying that that use of government resources was illegal? If so why?

??????? Prayers only occur if they're broadcast over a loudspeaker? So if a student in the stands prayed on their own, it's not really a prayer?

Are you suggesting people should be trying to lead prayer from the spectator stands? Or do you mean that people should not be not allowed to pray together?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

"Generally, the moment of silence in schools is allowed by law as long as it is genuinely neutral."
source

It's legal but only a marginal improvement over prayer: "instead of having an actual prayer, we'll just leave a hole in the program where the prayer is supposed to go."

 

[Jose Fly]

I seem to recall a certain Palestinian Rabbi, from oh, 2000-ish years or so ago, being rather dismissive and derogatory with respect to loud, public praying.

Irregardless of that, it would appear that a Proper Prayer© requires a Prayer Leader™ who speaks the Official Prayer Words©, likely from an Official Public Prayer Handbook©, available anywhere Jesus Toast© is sold.

Apparently "God" cannot otherwise hear or answer these, if they are done silently.

Ironic. Isn't it?

It is fascinating to see Christians fight so passionately to have the government provide them a public platform to broadcast their prayers, when in Matthew the Bible records Jesus as saying...

"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him"​

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It is fascinating to see Christians fight so passionately to have the government provide them a public platform to broadcast their prayers, when in Matthew the Bible records Jesus as saying...

"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him"​

It's occurred to me before that it would be funny to replace the invocation at a public event with that passage.

Please bow your heads for a reading from the Gospel of Matthew.

 

[Jose Fly]

There are two clauses the establishment clause and the exercise clause.

I'm aware.

So you agree that the atheists are not being oppressed by the inclusion of a prayer before football games.

No, I haven't seen anyone argue on the grounds of "oppression".

Where's this "pre-approval" taking place?

In the article in the OP, it states that the school reviewed and approved the prayers.

And do you believe the Lowndes High School in Georgia was establishing a religion?

The school is the government, so by pre-approving a Christian prayer, providing a PA system for the prayer to be broadcast, at a government event....all that gives the impression that the government is endorsing and promoting Christianity.

Do you believe they were proselytizing? If so, please explain how. Did you watch the video?

See above. All of that gives the impression that the government is endorsing and promoting Christianity.

Is this about the use of the loudspeaker? Are you saying the students should bring their own?

It's about all of the factors.

Did you watch the video of the Prayer opening the Continental Congress that I posted? Are you saying that that use of government resources was illegal? If so why?

No, I didn't watch the video. I believe Congressional invocations were ruled on separately, and it had to do with long-standing traditions or something like that.

Are you suggesting people should be trying to lead prayer from the spectator stands? Or do you mean that people should not be not allowed to pray together?

Dude, this isn't that difficult a concept to grasp. If the people in the stands want to pray, they have every right to do so, on their own. What's illegal is for the government to take part, in this case by approving the prayer, providing the PA system, and setting aside time for it at a government event.

 

[74x12]

I'm still having difficulty understanding. You seemed to indicate that you believe in personal liberties, but you also believe that it is okay for a majority group to dictate the freedoms and rights of a minority group?

As long as no one is forced to participate I don't see the big deal.

 

[metis]

As long as no one is forced to participate I don't see the big deal.

That's really not what the issue is as it is a constitutional issue involving separation of church & state.

 

[74x12]

That's really not what the issue is as it is a constitutional issue involving separation of church & state.

Oh, so because some people made a public prayer at a ball game half way across the country in a State school(not even federal) therefore you feel like the church has somehow united with the government to infringe your religious(or lack thereof) freedom?

Okay.

 

[metis]

Oh, so because some people made a public prayer at a ball game half way across the country in a State school(not even federal) therefore you feel like the church has somehow united with the government to infringe your religious(or lack thereof) freedom?

Okay.

That's what the SCOTUS has repeatedly decided, and I would suggest that they may know what they're talking about and why.

 

[74x12]

That's what the SCOTUS has repeatedly decided, and I would suggest that they may know what they're talking about and why.

This guy thinks the government knows what is doing!

Good luck with that!

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

So you agree that the atheists are not being oppressed by the inclusion of a prayer before football games.

I'd say the practice is a bit oppressive, though not just to atheists.

 

[metis]

This guy thinks the government knows what is doing!

Good luck with that!

Well, good luck in believing that you know so much more than justices trained in constitutional law. I taught a poli sci course for roughly 25 years, have studied the arguments both pro & con, but since you know so much more than all of us combined, there's no need to discuss this any more. Have a nice day.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This guy thinks the government knows what is doing!

Good luck with that!

Psst: the school with the football game prayers is also government.

 

[74x12]

Well, good luck in believing that you know so much more than justices trained in constitutional law. I taught a poli sci course for roughly 25 years, have studied the arguments both pro & con, but since you know so much more than all of us combined, there's no need to discuss this any more. Have a nice day.

Good luck.

Psst: the school with the football game prayers is also government.

Yep, the best schools right?

 

[Jose Fly]

Oh, so because some people made a public prayer at a ball game half way across the country in a State school(not even federal) therefore you feel like the church has somehow united with the government to infringe your religious(or lack thereof) freedom?

A more accurate way to put it would be, "The government allowed Christians to use government resources to broadcast a Christian prayer at a government event, therefore we feel like the government is promoting and endorsing Christianity".

 

[74x12]

A more accurate way to put it would be, "The government allowed Christians to use government resources to broadcast a Christian prayer at a government event, therefore we feel like the government is promoting and endorsing Christianity".

Who paid taxes? Whose kid in the school? Yours?

 

[Jose Fly]

Who paid taxes? Whose kid in the school? Yours?

Not sure why that matters, since I have zero role in this other than commenting in this forum. As I noted earlier in this thread, the precedent-setting SCOTUS case (Santa Fe Independent School District v. Doe) was initiated by Catholic and Mormon families who lived in the Santa Fe district.