"Christians Furious After GA School Bans Loudspeaker Prayers at Football Games"

[Skwim]

.​

"For years now, the football team at Lowndes High School in Georgia has opened its games with a student-led prayer, but after a complaint from an atheist group, those prayers are ending and the community is furious.

At least that’s what a couple of news headlines this week have suggested.

But they all miss a critical point: Even the Freedom From Religion Foundation doesn’t have a legal issue with student-led prayers. If the athletes and fans choose to pray before a game, that’s their right. But at Lowndes, the students use the loudspeaker system to preach Christianity.

Here’s an example of it from 2017:

That’s why FFRF had a problem with it, as attorney Chris Line pointed out when he sent the district a letter on behalf of a parent who lives in the community.

“I couldn’t go to the football game and say, ‘hey, there is no God,’ to everybody at the game, use the school’s microphone for that. In the same way that a Christian can not come up and deliver a Christian prayer for everyone when the crowd probably has Jewish people, Muslims, obviously atheists, and tons of other minority religions,” said Chris Line, Freedom From Religion Foundation Attorney.
​

It’s not just FFRF either. The Supreme Court ruled on this very issue in 2000 in Santa Fe Independent School District v. Doe and said the loudspeaker prayers were illegal.

And yet the response has included district officials blaming FFRF for the change, and locals whining because they’re too ignorant to understand the problem.

Prayer has “always been done, and we live in an area where God is put above a lot of other things,” [senior Taylor] Slocumb said. “To have it taken away from us, it’s something I wanted to fight for.”
…

“It’s time for Christians to stand up for what is right and to stand up for God,” [parent Joe] Copeland said. “When you quit talking to God, it’s going to go bad.”
…

“South Georgia is in the middle of the Bible Belt,” said Darrell Presley, the Viking Touchdown Club President. “Religion is a very strong thing in this part of the country and it’s one of the things that you do.”

Presley says if the prayer does not get added back to the program, fans will say their own from the crowd.
​

I’m no attorney, but Presley’s not very smart, so I’ll go ahead and say it with confidence: No one cares if the fans say their own prayers. No one is challenging their right to pray. Hell, they can pray to their hearts’ desires. Christian fans are free to turn the games into makeshift church services, and tell Jews they’re going to Hell unless they repent, and whatever else they want.

But they can’t use the school’s equipment to amplify their message. This isn’t that complicated.

Maybe if the fans spent more time in school and less time praying, they would realize that."
source


.​

 

[Regiomontanus]

How about if the student saying the prayer brought his/her own megaphone?

 

[Jose Fly]

How about if the student saying the prayer brought his/her own megaphone?

Why? What would be the purpose of that?

 

[Skwim]

How about if the student saying the prayer brought his/her own megaphone?

Nope.

"Santa Fe Independent School District v. Doe, case [cited above as the reason] in which the U.S. Supreme Court on June 19, 2000, ruled (6–3) that a Texas school board policy that allowed “student-led, student-initiated prayer” before varsity high-school football games was a violation of the First Amendment’s establishment clause, which generally prohibits the government from establishing, advancing, or giving favour to any religion."
source
​

My guess is that the prayer takes places during a public school (governmental) function.

.

 

[Regiomontanus]

Nope.

"Santa Fe Independent School District v. Doe, case [cited above as the reason] in which the U.S. Supreme Court on June 19, 2000, ruled (6–3) that a Texas school board policy that allowed “student-led, student-initiated prayer” before varsity high-school football games was a violation of the First Amendment’s establishment clause, which generally prohibits the government from establishing, advancing, or giving favour to any religion."
source
​

My guess is that the prayer takes places during a public school (governmental) function.

.

What about a spontaneous event by a student/students, not planned or sanctioned by the school? Prayer around the flag pole at school, like before classes start, is allowed. My point is that there has to be a line somewhere. You can't just say "you are at school so no praying."

 

[Regiomontanus]

Why? What would be the purpose of that?

He mentioned using school equipment...

 

[Father Heathen]

How about if the student saying the prayer brought his/her own megaphone?

How about if an atheist, muslim, hindu, or satanist student brought their own megaphone?

 

[Skwim]

What about a spontaneous event by a student/students, not planned or sanctioned by the school? Prayer around the flag pole at school, like before classes start, is allowed. My point is that there has to be a line somewhere. You can't just say "you are at school so no praying."

And no one is. I believe it has to be completely free of all entanglements with any operation led, guided, conducted, managed, directed, protected, or steered by the school.

.

 

[Father Heathen]

It's interesting how insistent our culture is with interlacing patriotism and religion with watching people chase balls around.

 

[Regiomontanus]

How about if an atheist, muslim, hindu, or satanist student brought their own megaphone?

That would be chaotic. Fortunately I dislike football and so would not be there to get annoyed at all of the shouting

 

[Regiomontanus]

And no one is. I believe it has to be completely free of all entanglements with any operation led, guided, conducted, managed, directed, protected, or steered by the school.

.

Agreed, though I am not sure what you mean by protected.

 

[Skwim]

It's interesting how insistent our culture is with interlacing patriotism and religion with watching people chase balls around.

Yeah, I can't figure that out. In so many cases you get a bunch of people in uniforms together and someone will want everybody to stop what they're doing and listen to a prayer.

A question for all the Christians here; uniforms and prayers, exactly what is the connection?

.

 

[Skwim]

Agreed, though I am not sure what you mean by protected.

Any student led prayer in which the school assures protection from things such as disruption or other interference.

.

 

[Regiomontanus]

Any student led prayer in which the school assures protection from things such as disruption or other interference.

.

Then we disagree

If the school would protect the chess club from some jocks bullying them (or whatever), which they would, then they obviously must protect all students.

 

[Kenny]

.​

View attachment 32883

"For years now, the football team at Lowndes High School in Georgia has opened its games with a student-led prayer, but after a complaint from an atheist group, those prayers are ending and the community is furious.

At least that’s what a couple of news headlines this week have suggested.

But they all miss a critical point: Even the Freedom From Religion Foundation doesn’t have a legal issue with student-led prayers. If the athletes and fans choose to pray before a game, that’s their right. But at Lowndes, the students use the loudspeaker system to preach Christianity.

Here’s an example of it from 2017:

That’s why FFRF had a problem with it, as attorney Chris Line pointed out when he sent the district a letter on behalf of a parent who lives in the community.

“I couldn’t go to the football game and say, ‘hey, there is no God,’ to everybody at the game, use the school’s microphone for that. In the same way that a Christian can not come up and deliver a Christian prayer for everyone when the crowd probably has Jewish people, Muslims, obviously atheists, and tons of other minority religions,” said Chris Line, Freedom From Religion Foundation Attorney.
​

It’s not just FFRF either. The Supreme Court ruled on this very issue in 2000 in Santa Fe Independent School District v. Doe and said the loudspeaker prayers were illegal.

And yet the response has included district officials blaming FFRF for the change, and locals whining because they’re too ignorant to understand the problem.

Prayer has “always been done, and we live in an area where God is put above a lot of other things,” [senior Taylor] Slocumb said. “To have it taken away from us, it’s something I wanted to fight for.”
…

“It’s time for Christians to stand up for what is right and to stand up for God,” [parent Joe] Copeland said. “When you quit talking to God, it’s going to go bad.”
…

“South Georgia is in the middle of the Bible Belt,” said Darrell Presley, the Viking Touchdown Club President. “Religion is a very strong thing in this part of the country and it’s one of the things that you do.”

Presley says if the prayer does not get added back to the program, fans will say their own from the crowd.
​

I’m no attorney, but Presley’s not very smart, so I’ll go ahead and say it with confidence: No one cares if the fans say their own prayers. No one is challenging their right to pray. Hell, they can pray to their hearts’ desires. Christian fans are free to turn the games into makeshift church services, and tell Jews they’re going to Hell unless they repent, and whatever else they want.

But they can’t use the school’s equipment to amplify their message. This isn’t that complicated.

Maybe if the fans spent more time in school and less time praying, they would realize that."
source


.​

An adaptation:

First they came for the Christians, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Christian.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.


Another blow to free speech

 

[Father Heathen]

That would be chaotic.

Now why is that do you suppose? Are Christians entitled to preferential treatment?

 

[Skwim]

Then we disagree

If the school would protect the chess club from some jocks bullying them (or whatever), which they would, then they obviously must protect all students.

Not necessarily (only because I don't know for certain), because chess is a secular affair and not a religious event. Religious events that occur within governmental venues are subject to a whole lot of limitations and laws that don't apply to secular circumstances. However, I may be wrong here. My better guess is that the bullying would have to be seen aside from the context of the prayer. Maybe you're right---I've never given it any thought before.


.

 

[Father Heathen]

An adaptation:

First they came for the Christians, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Christian.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.


Another blow to free speech

The establishment clause of the 1st amendment is a "blow to free speech"? You can still speak your beliefs, you're just not going to use my tax dollars to do it.
What if the school wanted to lead a Muslim prayer? Would you still support their "free speech" or would you be squealing in protest like a two-faced hypocrite?

 

[Skwim]

Another blow to free speech

No, just a blow to unrestricted speech. Or do you think schools should allow Scientology Information & Indoctrination kiosks to be set up on school grounds?

.

 

[Kenny]

The establishment clause of the 1st amendment is a "blow to free speech"? You can still speak your beliefs, you're just not going to use my tax dollars to do it.
What if the school wanted to lead a Muslim prayer? Would you still support their "free speech" or would you be squealing in protest like a two-faced hypocrite?

Closing it down is "free speech"? this is
" or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;?"

If a Muslim led prayer... so be it!

As I said with an additional adaptation:

First they came for the Christians, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Christian.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for Father Heather—and there was no one left to speak for Father Heathen.