IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
The one who is pierced in Zecharia is not the messiah.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Christians and Jews Mostly: Messiah
- Thread starter Rival
- Start date
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
This could have been copied and pasted from an anti-semitic website. My assumption is now that you frequent such sites.
I don't find in the Bible where Enoch and Elijah go to Heaven as home at death.
None of the faithful of Hebrews chapter 11 are in Heaven - Hebrews 11:13; Hebrews 11:39.
Rather, it is about to which heavens did Elijah ascend _________________
Jesus taught at John 3:13 that No man has ascended to Heaven........
That includes dead King David according to Acts of the Apostles 2:34.
In Scripture heavens also can denote the physical heavens - Deuteronomy 4:19.
Heavens can also be the mid-heavens were birds fly - Psalms 78:26; Matthew 6:26
That whirlwind or wind storm of 2 Kings 2:11 simply placed Elijah to another location. Another spot on Earth by going through the atmosphere.
There is No wind storm in the spirit heavenly realm of God's presence.
Elijah was simply carried out of sight by the wind one place to another on Earth.
The Bible does Not say Elijah died that day. There is No mention of a mourning period for Elijah.
Rather, at 2 Chronicles 21:12-15 we find Elijah still alive and writing to King Jehoram. So, Elijah was still living 5 years later in the territory of Judah.
As far as Enoch is concerned God did Not permit opposers to kill Enoch, instead God took him meaning God cut short Enoch's life.
That was also the situation with Moses because God disposed of Moses body so that No one could harm the body in any way - Deuteronomy 34:5-6; Hebrews 11:5
So, people like Elijah, Enoch, David and Daniel are in the grave awaiting Jesus future action as mentioned at Acts of the Apostles 24:15 that there ' is going to be' a resurrection......
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
The ONLY way we will know the Messiah is come, is if someone fulfills ALL the prophecies. Otherwise you set yourself up for anyone claiming to be the Messiah and saying they will fulfill the prophecies next time around.
I fail to see how that was an anti-semitic statement, I copied it in fact from studying the Church Fathers, not anti-semites/racists. St. Justin Martyr (100-165AD life) said in his dialogue with Trypho (a Jew he debated and then created this document based on that debate) representing what seems to me a common sentiment in the Fathers and Saints:
"Let us glorify God, all nations gathered together; for He has also visited us. Let us glorify Him by the King of glory, by the Lord of hosts. For He has been gracious towards the Gentiles also; and our sacrifices He esteems more grateful than yours. What need, then, have I of circumcision, who have been witnessed to by God? What need have I of that other baptism, who have been baptized with the Holy Ghost? I think that while I mention this, I would persuade even those who are possessed of scanty intelligence. For these words have neither been prepared by me, nor embellished by the art of man; but David sung them, Isaiah preached them, Zechariah proclaimed them, and Moses wrote them. Are you acquainted with them, Trypho? They are contained in your Scriptures, or rather not yours, but ours. For we believe them; but you, though you read them, do not catch the spirit that is in them. Be not offended at, or reproach us with, the bodily uncircumcision with which God has created us; and think it not strange that we drink hot water on the Sabbaths, since God directs the government of the universe on this day equally as on all others; and the priests, as on other days, so on this, are ordered to offer sacrifices; and there are so many righteous men who have performed none of these legal ceremonies, and yet are witnessed to by God Himself."
[Chapter 29 of this work.]
Unless you consider them to all be anti-semitic and the Churches which follow them to be anti-semitic, which in that case there is nothing I can do about that, but do not reproach me with taking things from racists as if I approve of them, I study my Fathers.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
You implied that those we call Jews today are not the same people as those who were called Jews in the past. That's anti-Semitic. Not to mention that you said we don't understand our own writings, despite the fact that we have been studying them longer than anyone else on the planet. It's just a slam.
I believe the meaning is clear read again.
The Trinity, and the belief in an incarnate human God.
Reread. I believe the above doesn to reflect what I wrote In the history of humanity there are many diverse and conflicting beliefs, and they each believe their way is the only as the Roman Church believes.
The belief that the Roman Church is the only way of salvation. “extra ecclesiam nulla salus.” Yes, by the grace of God no one can judge another as condemned, and it is ultimately God's judgement, but unless up till the moment of death one does not repent and accept the Roman Church one cannot be saved. Other than only the sincere innocent ones with no knowledge of the Roman Church may be saved.
The Roman Church has a history of every abominable violation of human morals and dignity possible.
Last edited:
The problem is the Roman Church is guilty of a long history of persecution and advocated persecution of Jews regardless of what you 'personally'believe.
How is that anti-Semitic? I did not imply, I said, for those who imply or deal in vagueness are a nuisance. Are you really unfamiliar with the Christian claim that the Church is eternal or what St. Paul said that "not all who are of Israel are Israel"? As for needing to understand the Scriptures, the Lord Jesus Himself and St. Paul taught that, the first saying that they did not even believe Moses and also "opening the nous/mind/spirit" of His Apostles to understand that all the Scriptures spoke of them. The second saying clearly that Jews and Greeks were "natural" and did not have the mind of Christ and so could not understand the mind of God or spiritual things in general, unless they were brought into Christ (the whole beginning of 1 Corinthians is about this and other arguments related). Not sure how it's a "slam" and not just me believing what I say I believe. I'm not a dispy or somethin'.
We must have simply different views on what anti-Semitism is ultimately.
I am fully aware of this history and indeed it is independent of my mind, but this does not magically transform a statement into anti-Semitism.
Well, ah . . . If you believe in the Roman Church you cannot wash your hands as independent of the actions, policies, and behavior of the Roman Church.
I do not, that is why we have collective repentance and in the place of the sins of our forefathers must do restitution to those who we harmed. I do not separate myself from the body in receiving good or receiving praise, neither shall I separate myself in this. I agree with you here.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
That you don't understand how telling Jews, "You aren't the real Jews" is antismeitic says much about you.
Why? It's one of the largest institutions in the world. If he hasn't personally done anything wrong he's not responsible. If everyone were guilty by association with a various institution, nobody would be innocent at all.
I am fully aware of all of the above and there is no change. The Tanakh only deals with the history of the Hebrew people and no one else, and not the entire world. The references to the Messiah and/of Messiahs ONLY deals withing the concept of enlightened rulers within Hebrew history.
The Tanakh does not clearly state anything of the sort. As far as the Tanakh in Hebrew ONLY within the context of Hebrew history.
Exactly whar I said.
I did not say anyone in particularly 'guilty' of any particular crime of other immoral act, but every person must take responsibility for the institutions and beliefs they endorse. They remain responsible for any associations and affiliations they choose
Are you saying, for example, when one belongs to the Nazi Party they are not personally responsible for the beliefs of the institution they 'choose' to affiliate with?
It's more complicated than that, but I see this is rather a personal problem you have that says much about you. God bless.
So why does the whole universe think it belongs to them? It describes a messiah that will reign over them as a people, totally concordant with their worldview. Outside of a Jewish framework, I'm not sure why everyone else is so bothered.
You made it sound as though he were personally guilty of committing crimes.
Added numbers to your post for clarity as to what I am responding to.
1) How do you define "God" for the Trinity to be three deities to you and not one? I will not enter into contention with you on it I genuinely just want to know so that I may see how things look to others concerning our beliefs.
2-3) Those who know of the Church but reject her in life can in fact be saved according to Pope St. JP2. Although I think you'd consider it still egocentric, for it is "though they reject her they are still part of the Church" type of thinking, and we still affirm Christ is the only way. But I do see your point.
4) True enough, hence corporate repentance. But I do not think this impugns spiritual guidance from it being real, considering the Saints and their hierarchy or the Lord Jesus Himself. It's a real wheat and tares sort of thing to me. But I see the point here also.