Christians and Jews Mostly: Messiah

[shunyadragon]

So why does the whole universe think it belongs to them?

Of course not. I said nothing of the sort.

It describes a messiah that will reign over them [Hebrews] as a people, totally concordant with their [Hebrews] worldview.

As far as the Tanakh I agree.

Outside of a Jewish framework, I'm not sure why everyone else is so bothered.

Bothered? The main problems are the two fold extremes: (1) The Jewish perspective based on the Tanakh. is that this all there is in the human Divine relationship with God. through Revelation.
(2) Christianity interprets the Tanakh as ONLY the only interpretation of the Messiah as referring Jesus Christ and the succession prophetic inheritance of the lineage of the prophets and the Messiah for the universal Salvation of humanity.

I simply objectively view the Tanakh as the Hebrew historical narrative of their tribal history and beliefs.

I believe in a universal God that goes beyond the context of the individual history and culture of every religion in the the context of their own history.

I believe Judaism has the same problem as all ancient religions, and that is that they only acknowledge their own spiritual relationship with the 'Source' some call God(s) at the exclusion of other beliefs in a relationship with the Divine.

 

[shunyadragon]

You made it sound as though he were personally guilty of committing crimes.

'You made it sound . . .' needs assumptions I did not say in my posts.

 

[Rival]

'You made it sound . . .' needs assumptions I did not say in my posts.

I'm tired and it's possible I misread you. It's no sweat.

 

[shunyadragon]

One place in particular I find is all of chapter 11 of Isaiah.
The Davidic Messiah according to Isaiah 11:4 is that he will judge the destitute with righteousness, and rebuke with firmess the humble of the earth. He will strike [the wicked of] the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked.........

. . . which is the roll of the ruling righteous King of the Hebrews.

 

[Link]

The ONLY way we will know the Messiah is come, is if someone fulfills ALL the prophecies. Otherwise you set yourself up for anyone claiming to be the Messiah and saying they will fulfill the prophecies next time around.

No, Messengers and Prophets have proof through scripture (for those who don't witness their miracles).

The Gospels are proof for Jesus, the same way Torah is proof for Moses.

If he is proven to be a Messenger, and says he will come back, why not believe him?

If someone claims to be the Messiah today, I will kindly ask him to do miracles like Moses, Jesus etc...

 

[Rival]

The Gospels are proof for Jesus, the same way Torah is proof for Moses.

It's not proof when these contradict.

 

[Link]

It's not proof when these contradict.

The Torah contradicts itself too.

 

[Rival]

The Torah contradicts itself too.

I would argue that it doesn't.

I would argue the Qur'an does.

So I think we could be here all day

 

[Link]

I would argue that it doesn't.

I would argue the Qur'an does.

So I think we could be here all day

Maybe... haha... biases play a big role I guess in solving/not solving contradictions.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

No, Messengers and Prophets have proof through scripture (for those who don't witness their miracles).

The Gospels are proof for Jesus, the same way Torah is proof for Moses.

If he is proven to be a Messenger, and says he will come back, why not believe him?

If someone claims to be the Messiah today, I will kindly ask him to do miracles like Moses, Jesus etc...

Sorry, but I don't accept this. The gospels can say whatever they like, but J didn't fulfill ALL the prophecies, therefore he is ruled out as being the messiah.

 

[Link]

Sorry, but I don't accept this. The gospels can say whatever they like, but J didn't fulfill ALL the prophecies, therefore he is ruled out as being the messiah.

You can accept it or not and repeat the same assertion that doesn't address the argument but just the conclusion. We are free.

 

[Rival]

Sorry, but I don't accept this. The gospels can say whatever they like, but J didn't fulfill ALL the prophecies, therefore he is ruled out as being the messiah.

Afaik he fulfilled none.

 

[Link]

Afaik he fulfilled none.

In Shiism Twelver version, the Mahdi is yet to do what the Mahdi meant to do. It's a kind of shallow reason to reject either the Mahdi or the Messiah Jesus in my view.

 

[Rival]

In Shiism Twelver version, the Mahdi is yet to do what the Mahdi meant to do. It's a kind of shallow reason to reject either the Mahdi or the Messiah Jesus in my view.

But then why would one accept him if he doesn't do what qualifies him? How could you possibly know it's him? I could posit Harel as the mashiach and even though he doesn't fit the bill now, maybe later he will. I mean, I'm still hopeful.

 

[Hawkins]

Messiah is pointless if it's not for the salvation of humans. If the Jewish Messiah is for today's 20 mil. Jews (out of which only the 2 mil. Orthodox Jews still abide by the Law), then He doesn't concern anyone.

What being significant is the advocate that God provides a mankind facing salvation for humans, not only the Jews. So the next question will be who are saved among human beings. There's literally no gentiles joining Judaism in the past 2000 years. On the other hand, the Christian Messiah can save up to 1/3 humans who believe in Jesus Christ. Enough said!

And get a clue!

 

[Rival]

There's literally no gentiles joining Judaism in the past 2000 years.

Uh, what?

 

[Link]

But then why would one accept him if he doesn't do what qualifies him? I could posit Harel as the mashiach and even though he doesn't fit the bill now, maybe later he will. I mean, I'm still hopeful.

Well, like already explained. The chosen have proofs, no one should accept any divinely appointed person without proofs. In case of Jesus, I believe both Quran and Gospels prove him. He doesn't need to have done something is meant to do in the future to have proof.

The Mahdi is yet to have done what he is supposed to do, we don't believe in the Mahdi being 12th Imam, because the Mahdi did already what was prophesized nor reject him because he has not. Rather the Mahdi being 12th Imam has proofs in itself.

 

[Rival]

Well, like already explained. The chosen have proofs, no one should accept any divinely appointed person without proofs. In case of Jesus, I believe both Quran and Gospels prove him. He doesn't need to have done something is meant to do in the future to have proof.

The Mahdi is yet to have done what he is supposed to do, we don't believe in the Mahdi being 12th Imam, because the Mahdi did already what was prophesized nor reject him because he has not. Rather the Mahdi being 12th Imam has proofs in itself.

Him doing what he's meant to do is the proof.

 

[Link]

Him doing what he's meant to do is the proof.

If this is the case, why expect him in the first place?

 

[Hawkins]

Uh, what?

Is that a question at all, or just speechlessly pointless?