Not really-- the disciples preached from the TaNaKh
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Christians and Jews Mostly: Messiah
- Thread starter Rival
- Start date
What if it happens the next day after one of us dies? What rotten luck to die just before!
PruePhillip
Well-Known Member
There are TWO forms of Messianic prophecies in the Tanakh.
1 - reigning king
2 - suffering redeemer
And there are verses like Zechariah 9 and 12 which unite these two.
Thus Israel will see their reigning king, but mourn that he's the lowly
man they pierced.
PruePhillip
Well-Known Member
The Messiah did not accept the religions of the general world,
and for that matter He rejected much of Israel. Nothing progressive.
But the Jews are a SYMBOL of God's people, just as the blood on
the door's lintel in Egypt was a symbol of the shelting blood of the
perfect lamb. And all the nations of the world can understand these
symbols and become a part of God's people too.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
All the major world religions are expecting a Messiah, a world redeemer, who will come in the End Times. Certain religious believers such as the Jews and Christians believe that this Messiah will meet their expectations and restore their religion to its former glory, and He will even vindicate their religion as being the one true religion. Obviously it is impossible that all the religions are right about what this Messiah will be like and what he will do, because these religions all have different expectations of this Messiah.
Bible prophecies can be interpreted in many different ways, so they can have many meanings, so they can be made to mean what people want them to mean so that Messiah will be what they want Him to be.
Below are two websites that cover the prophecies of the major religions and what they believe the Messiah will be.
“In this page a links to other pages concentrating on prophecies contained in some of the major Religious and Spiritual traditions of the World. Also I have included some predictions of Nostradamus and there is an article on 2012 which is the special date when the Mayan calendar comes to an end. In each section I give some background to the prophecies from the respective World Religions and also discuss some of their social and political implications.”
Prophecies from World Religion and other sources
“Each of the world's major religions contains Messianic prophecies.
Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, the Zoroastrian religion and even the Native American religions all foretell the coming of a Promised One. Each of the Founders of these great religions either promised to personally return himself, to send another like himself or in some instances.... the Founder promised to do both.
Christians await the return of Christ and the coming of "another comforter." The Jewish scriptures foretell the coming of "another Prophet" like Moses and the return of Elijah from heaven. Many Moslems await the appearance of Mahdi and Meseeh. Krishna promised to personally return from age to age. Buddha said that he was not the first Buddha ever to appear and that another "supremely enlightened" Buddha was still yet to come. Zoroastrian prophecies foretell the coming of a "world-renovator." Native American prophecies foretell the coming of a great teacher from the east who will bring teachings which will restore the hoop of unity.
Each religion, in its own way, has foretold the coming of a great religion restoring, world uniting, peace bringing Messiah.””
Prophecy Fulfilled Webpage
Mine doesn't
I just don't see why so many people discard what the Jews say. They were given this message but it seems like everyone decided they're wrong. I have no idea why people think the people who were given the scriptures in their own language and had been studying it for 1000 years before Christianity even existed don't get it. So it baffles me why people think they apparently manage to get it so wrong.
I suspect it's because people don't like the idea that the messiah is mainly for Israel and they instead want a more universal message. IOW they're having the same problem I had with Judaism: "It's not for you."
But that doesn't mean it's not true.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I think the Jews have misinterpreted their scriptures because they are biased and they want the Messiah to be just for them, so that is what they interpret their scriptures to mean. The Christians did the same thing because they want the Messiah to be Jesus. This can be explained by human desires and I think it shows how they can lead to biases and errors in thinking.Mine doesn't
I just don't see why so many people discard what the Jews say. They were given this message but it seems like everyone decided they're wrong. I have no idea why people think the people who were given the scriptures in their own language and had been studying it for 1000 years before Christianity even existed don't get it. So it baffles me why people think they apparently manage to get it so wrong.
Why not just cut to the chase? Jews believe they are special and chosen and I consider that kind of exclusivity to be arrogant. They will try to use their scriptures to back them up, but all religious scriptures say the people that accept them are the ones who will be well with God, so that won't work to say any one group is chosen.
I could never believe that the Messiah is just for the Jews because it makes absolutely no logical sense. How then could you explain all the messianic prophecies of the other religious scriptures? What the Jews believe the Messiah will do and how they will be vindicated as God's chosen ones when the Messiah comes also makes absolutely no logical sense. The Torah does not have what is necessary to address the present day needs of humanity or the needs of humanity into the future. It was written for the Jewish people living thousands of years ago. The laws alone are completely outdated.
I just explained why I cannot believe it could be true. I approach religion from a logic, not emotion, and I cannot see how a just and loving God would choose a certain group of people over everyone else. In their favor, at least Christians want everybody to be saved.
InvestigateTruth
Well-Known Member
He was supposed to be a King, or a Ruler, and bring peace. His powers to appear in the east and west.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
But I don't think He was supposed to be like an earthly king and ruler as the Jews and Christians believe, with a throne an all that.
As for me I disregard what they say because Post-Temple Rabbinic Judaism is not the same religion Moses or Abraham had. I actually consider the religion of Jesus and Apostles to be the same [as that of Abraham, Moses, David, and those who followed them] and those who we call Jews today to be an innovation who do not understand the text they use in addition to it being corrupt in places. It's similar to how I disregard was Muslims say about my religion, has nothing to do with me taking from them then altering it. Not to mention the central figure in my religion said they were wrong in their interpretation so there is that aspect also.
Rabbinic Judaism is the direct descent of Pharisaic Judaism, so I'm not sure where this innovation notion is from. There was never a Judaism that believed the Torah wasn't forever, that the Messiah is God as a man, a trinity, a 3 day death and resurrection or pretty much any Christian doctrine I can think of. Christianity is also an innovation. None of these things are in the Tanakh. And I'm not sure how Jews taking stuff directly from Tanakh is an innovation of some newfangled Judaism. Their messianic expectations have not changed.
I am just saying the (or a, since there are dispies) Christian view on the matter, is essentially that our religion precedes theirs or that they have lost theirs and we are the true Israel. It's not that they are before us but that more there was a body around us which was shaken off, if that analogy works, but the Church is "from forever" and experienced progressive revelation but at times people (like Abraham) did in fact recognize things such as the Trinity. Partially false expectations built up around us and then God revealed it and they who held them were cast off, which is why I call it an innovation/younger religion in this sense. Perhaps these comments from St. Theophylact help make it clearer than my botched explanation:
"The life in Christ appeared in those holy ones [Abraham, Job, Enoch, Melchizedek, etc] who lived before the law and circumcision. For all these were not counted as righteous by the observances of the law and the commandments, but by living the evangelic life of the Gospel. But when the law came, this manner of life receded. When the law had been given, the evangelic life later shone forth again... sealed with the blood of Christ."
Then quoting from what Isaiah and the Psalter both say he makes a case they misunderstood things in essence again, saying: "The 'paths' are the ordinances of the law, which are well-trodden and ancient. He [Isaiah] is saying, therefore, 'prepare yourselves for the evangelic life, the life that is lived according to the Gospel, and make the commandments of the law straight, that is, make them spiritual.' For the Spirit is straight and right [Psalter]. So then, when you see a Jew who understands the content of the law in a fleshly manner, you may say, 'this man has not made straight the paths,' that is, he does not understand the law spiritually."
So it is not really a disregarding as if we think their views were definitely before us and were right and then we just ignore it, it is not this way for us at all.
PruePhillip
Well-Known Member
Neither Rabbinic Judaism or Christianity accords with the Tanaka.
Christianity sees the 'New Testament' as the SPIRITUALIZATION
of the 'Old Testament,'
Thus the lamb's blood daubed on the lintel to save us from Egypt
and the Angel of Death is in Christ, for instance. And Israel is God's
People, the Holiest of Holies is the presence of God etc..
InvestigateTruth
Well-Known Member
Well, we believe He did not appear literally as a Ruler of the world.But I don't think He was supposed to be like an earthly king and ruler as the Jews and Christians believe, with a throne an all that.
Maybe God promised that the Messiah actually becomes a Ruler, but was not fulfilled.
Sometimes, prophecies are not fulfilled.
"Among the Prophets was Noah. For nine hundred and fifty years He prayerfully exhorted......
Long afterward, He several times promised victory to His companions and fixed the hour thereof. But when the hour struck, the divine promise was not fulfilled. This caused a few among the small number of His followers to turn away from Him, and to this testify the records of the best-known books. " Baha'u'llah, Iqan
In Torah also, is a verse that God can change what He promised before.
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
Very doubtful, I would think.
My interpretation of that is that it was not literally fulfilled. Of course it's only my opinion. What about the verse by Moses where He says:
When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken; the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously, thou shalt not be afraid of him.
Moses, "Devarim (Book of Deuteronomy)", 18:22
It might be objected that this is after Noah. Also these are the reported words of Moses, who knows whether He said this or used those exact words.
Can you tell me where that is or quote it?
It maybe doesn't matter anyway. Why argue about it?
PruePhillip
Well-Known Member
Zechariah, amongst others, spoke of the Jewish people mourning when they see
their Messiah coming to rule over the nations, and realizing this was the lowly man
they once pierced. God hasn't changed his mind.
You should really find better things to do with your time.
But does Christianity have a universal message? Christianity offers personal salvation for everyone, equally. It's universal in a metaphorical sense, but it's not actually about making the universe a better place. It's a get-out-of-jail free card when doomsday comes. Doomsday destroys the universe. All of creation going down the drain. It's not about making the universe a better place, it's about making sure you get a place when there's no universe left.
Frankly, I think the world was already in the process of moving towards monotheism when Christianity came along. A combination of luck and the fact that Christianity is many times over easier than Judaism got Christianity to win the day.
It offers something or else it wouldn't be so popular, is my thinking. I've read that while atheism is on the rise in western countries and converts to Islam usually only last about 4 years in that faith, Christianity is growing elsewhere in the world and the converts tend to be pretty hardcore. It's probably a consequence of the Evangelical movement, but as far as I can tell, people must be getting something out of it. The message is certainly universal in the sense that it's not as exclusive as Judaism is (or seems to be) nor as hard to join, and actively recruits people from anywhere at any time. People aren't flocking to other faiths, unless you're in weird Anglophone countries, really.
I agree with your last sentence and thinking about it often makes me angry, but that's not productive, so I guess I do stuff like this instead. I just honestly do not get how Christianity exists in the face of evidence to the contrary (meaning: Judaism) and it kind of drives me insane. I wonder why they aren't just Noachides instead if they want to worship HaShem. But then I can't say much.
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