Christianity vs Baha'i

[InvestigateTruth]

Do you think he was the reincarnation of Elijah? I dont believe in reincarnation, because of Hebrews 9 27 in the Bible. Was John the Baptist really Elijah reincarnated? | GotQuestions.org

No, Bahais don't believe in reincarnation.
Spiritual return, does not mean, same individual soul returns. It means another individual who spiritually is identical.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Why do you believe Jesus is a messenger?

Jesus was a Manifestation of God, who was also a Prophet as He alluded to Himself as Prophet. He was a Messenger, in a sense that, the father had sent Him, to deliver a revelation.
He was also, in my view, God of the Age.

 

[Nakosis]

It is in my opinion absurd to ask in such a general way whose beliefs about God are better. First it is a private matter. What I think Baha'is believe is not what they say they believe. If I believed what they said I'd likely be one of them, wouldn't I? Not believing them I am not one, unless I join under a false premise.

I was more interested in the text and the tenants of their doctrine. I'm interested in what differs.

Secondly you aren't that familiar with Christianity. Catholics are excluded from your ideas about Christianity. So are non-trinitarians (hundred million at least). So are Christians in general except those in your experience. Beliefs about God varies among Bahai's too. What they think today may change tomorrow.

Sure, stuff for everyone to learn

Third internal beliefs are a private matter among many religious people. What they say may be one thing and what they think another. I think this is common. How then can the beliefs of groups be compared?

Didn't really ask about internal belief but folks are free to share or keep whatever they wish as private.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I was more interested in the text and the tenants of their doctrine. I'm interested in what differs.

You could compare Jerome's opinions to the Baha'i ones or Augustine's to the Baha'i ones. You can't actually compare all of Christianity the Baha'i writings in a single swoop, not at all. Its because of the Christian canon. If your aim is to do that then the scriptures differ absolutely from Bahai writings. This is because while a textbook (such as Jerome's writing or Augustine's writing) is written to explain everything, biblical books are not and do not. They turn away rather than include. They confound. They exclude the reader and fight against the reader. Baha'i writings aren't like that.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes, I agree. A person who dies is not reincarnated.

However, it is possible for a person to be raised from the dead and live out the rest of their mortal lives, as with Lazarus.

The other exception is Jesus Christ, whose resurrection was necessary to demonstrate that he had, indeed, been raised from the dead in a new incorruptible body. He is considered to be the first-fruit of the harvest, showing what will happen at resurrection.

Let the dead bury the dead.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

'Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
That at the name of Jesus [not Baha'u'llah] every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father

I can confess that Jesus as Christ is Lord to the Glory of God the Father.

It was the Glory of God, the Father that showed me the Love of Jesus the Christ.

You do know that Baha'u'llah translated means the 'Glory of God' or 'Glory of the Lord'

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Luke 24:25-27. 'Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scripture the things concerning himself.'

This indeed shows the oneness of the Proohets/Messengers.

Stands to reason Jesus is trying to show people how He is One with all the Meseneges past as Christ the Holy Spirit.

Jesus also promised to return and has done so. Muhammad also taught the Oneness of the Messengers and the Bab and Baha'u'llah have now explained in great detail as to how they are One, how they are the 'Self of God', and Not God.

It is now possible, knowing who Christ is, to embrace Christ wherever that light shines forth from.

So we can embrace Noah, Abraham, Krishna, Moses, Zoroaster, Buddha, Jesus Christ, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah knowing that the Holy Spirit shines from them all. (To name but a few)

We can much more easily become One People on one planet under the One God.

Regards Tony

 

[Nakosis]

You could compare Jerome's opinions to the Baha'i ones or Augustine's to the Baha'i ones. You can't actually compare all of Christianity the Baha'i writings in a single swoop, not at all. Its because of the Christian canon. If your aim is to do that then the scriptures differ absolutely from Bahai writings. This is because while a textbook (such as Jerome's writing or Augustine's writing) is written to explain everything, biblical books are not and do not. They turn away rather than include. They confound. They exclude the reader and fight against the reader. Baha'i writings aren't like that.

Well, that's one informative difference.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You could compare Jerome's opinions to the Baha'i ones or Augustine's to the Baha'i ones. You can't actually compare all of Christianity the Baha'i writings in a single swoop, not at all. Its because of the Christian canon. If your aim is to do that then the scriptures differ absolutely from Bahai writings. This is because while a textbook (such as Jerome's writing or Augustine's writing) is written to explain everything, biblical books are not and do not. They turn away rather than include. They confound. They exclude the reader and fight against the reader. Baha'i writings aren't like that.

I see both the Bible and Baha'i Writings, without mens input, would be in complete harmony, reflecting an ever advancing concept of Faith.

The only conflict is men trying to hold on to a superior position in their Faith, and not wanting to see that all Humanity has had God guide them.

Regards Tony

 

[Nakosis]

Terrorists never do see themselves as Terrorists

The bible-chsracter called "god" is a psycho monster.

Terrorism is an effective tool of the underdog. Some might consider themselves terrorists. Not God of course being all powerful, but perhaps the early Hebrew who engaged in terrorist tactics?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Terrorism is an effective tool of the underdog. Some might consider themselves terrorists. Not God of course being all powerful, but perhaps the early Hebrew who engaged in terrorist tactics?

It is hard for people to accept that the blame lays upon our own choices. That we are the Good or we are the Evil in those choices.

That is a God given gift.

Regards Tony

 

[Audie]

Terrorism is an effective tool of the underdog. Some might consider themselves terrorists. Not God of course being all powerful, but perhaps the early Hebrew who engaged in terrorist tactics?

I agree, terrorist is the wrong word.
Its as you say.

Thus the psycho monster.

 

[CG Didymus]

That is just a Jewish concept, according to their interpretation of scripture. Baha'u'llah did sit on the throne of David, just not the way Jews believe he will sit.

“THE Most Great Law is come, and the Ancient Beauty ruleth upon the throne of David. Thus hath My Pen spoken that which the histories of bygone ages have related. At this time, however, David crieth aloud and saith: ‘O my loving Lord! Do Thou number me with such as have stood steadfast in Thy Cause, O Thou through Whom the faces have been illumined, and the footsteps have slipped!’” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 89-90

But the whole concept of The Messiah is something made up by Jews. In the article I read it said that concept in not in the Torah. Then we have the other problem of where did these "prophecies" come from? All the different prophets, including Daniel, did they write their own book or did someone else write it? None of them were the manifestation. At best they were that lower type of prophet, which, other than Judaism, where are those types of prophets? But if those stories were written by others about a prophet, then how trustworthy is that? Because their are questions to there being three different writers of Isaiah and that Daniel was written at a much later time.

So possibly, we have writers saying a prophet said such and such about a Messiah. Then we have Rabbi's at a later time make those stories part of the Jewish Scripture and then, like you say, they interpret them... along with Christians and now Baha'is. Just like the "He" will come from Assyria versus "They" will come from Assyria. Jews say it is "They" meaning the Jews that were taken away captive will return to Israel. So after all of this is argued out, I think what you say is best... The prophecies are not the main proof. For Baha'is they are the icing. For others, they are not credible proof of anything and can be argued to mean something different.

 

[CG Didymus]

Jesus is God and died for the whole world.

To take the Baha'i side on this... what is wrong with Jesus being "virtually" God? Like the Baha'is say that Jesus was like a perfectly polished mirror that reflected God? As far as we know he looked, acted and was God.

Then on the Christian side, who has the power to forgive sin. Apparently God alone. But Jesus, to prove he had that authority and power forgave a man's sin then healed him.

Next, why would God, a spirit, need a second separate spirit, the Holy Spirit? Why wouldn't that be like an emanation from God or something?

Then, why did God, the creator of all this, need to create Satan, then cast him to Earth, just to mess with people and deceive them? God knew that people would fall. Why would he let so many people in far off lands follow "false" Gods and go through hundreds and even thousands of years before they ever knew of the God of Israel and Jesus? By the time they did hear of Jesus, a lot of them heard the Catholic version of Christianity. Why did he make a provision for Jews to temporally have their sins forgiven by killing and burning an animal?

Then his permanent plan was to have his son die to pay the penalty. And who is really saved? Since no one ever stops doing things considered "sin", therefore no one really can or does repent of all sin, then even the ones "saved" are still sinners. Yet some sinners, who think they are Christian and say they are Christian, won't get into heaven? Because they didn't believe sincerely? How sincerely is sincerely if all Christians still fall short of being perfect? Others fall short because they believe the wrong details about Jesus.

Then the problem with the Baha'i explanation. If they are right. I don't see when Christians ever understood and taught the correct message about God and Jesus. As long as they were preaching about Satan and hellfire and Jesus rising from the dead, according to the Baha'is, Christians were teaching false doctrines.

 

[Skywalker]

Jesus was a Manifestation of God, who was also a Prophet as He alluded to Himself as Prophet. He was a Messenger, in a sense that, the father had sent Him, to deliver a revelation.
He was also, in my view, God of the Age.

Quoted from carm.org. Jesus' Three Offices: Prophet, Priest, and King | CARM.org
Jesus is first and foremost God, not a prophet.

Jesus' Three Offices: Prophet, Priest, and King
by Matt Slick

Jesus is both divine and human at the same time. Therefore, in the one person of Jesus are two distinct natures. This is called the hypostatic union, but, this isn't all we know about the person and work of Christ. Jesus also occupies three main offices: Prophet, Priest, and King. In other words, Jesus functions and/or has functioned in these offices. Let's take a look.

Christ as Prophet
A prophet of God is someone who reveals God, speaks for God, and communicates to people the truths that God wants them to know. Undoubtedly, Jesus did this when he came to do the will of the Father (Luke 22:42), to reveal the Father (Matt. 11:27), and to speak the things of the Father (John 8:28; 12:49).

In the Old Testament Moses said in Deut. 18:15, “The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him." This prophecy is quoted by Peter in Acts 3:22-23 in reference to Jesus, “Moses said, ‘The Lord God shall raise up for you a prophet like me from your brethren; to Him you shall give heed in everything He says to you. 23 ‘And it shall be that every soul that does not heed that prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’" The context of Acts 3:22 is clear that it is speaking of Jesus. In Acts 3:15 it speaks of Jesus being raised from the dead. In v. 16 Jesus is the one who strengthened a certain man. Christ is mentioned in v. 18 as needing to suffer. In v. 20 Jesus is called the Christ. Verse 21 mentions how God spoke "by the mouth of his holy prophets from ancient time." Then we have v. 22 which quotes Deut. 18:15. The context is clearly about Christ.

Furthermore, Jesus refers to himself as a prophet.

• Luke 13:33, "Just at that time some Pharisees came up, saying to Him, "Go away and depart from here, for Herod wants to kill You." 32 And He said to them, "Go and tell that fox, ‘Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I reach My goal.' 33 "Nevertheless I must journey on today and tomorrow and the next day; for it cannot be that a prophet should perish outside of Jerusalem."
• Matt. 13:57, "And they took offense at Him. But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his home town, and in his own household.” 58 And He did not do many miracles there because of their unbelief.."

In Luke 13:33 Jesus refers to himself as a prophet because he knows he is about to die, but he cannot do it outside of Jerusalem. Also, in Matt. 13:57 Jesus speaks about a prophet having no honor in his home town, and that is why he did not do many miracles there. Clearly, Jesus is referring to himself as a prophet.

Christ as Priest
The priests were the ones in the Old Testament who offered sacrifices to God in order to cleanse of sin. Ultimately, all such priests were representations of Jesus who is the True Priest who offered himself as a sacrifice (Eph. 5:2; Heb. 9:26-27; 10:12) by which he cleanses us of our sin (1 John 1:7). But, Jesus is called a priest after the order of Melchizedek. “Where Jesus has entered as a forerunner for us, having become a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.” (Heb. 6:20). Heb. 9:11 says, “But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation." As a priest, Jesus is our mediator between God and ourselves (1 Tim. 2:5).

It could be said that both the Prophet and the priest stand between God and man. In the case of the prophet, he delivers the word of God from the top down. In the case of the priest, he delivers the sacrifices of people to God from bottom to top. So, Jesus is a prophet who delivers the word of God to us, and he is also the priest who delivers his sacrifice, on our behalf, to God the father.

Christ as King
A king is someone who has authority to rule and reign over a group of people. Jesus is just such a king. He is called the King of the Jews by the Magi (Matt. 2:2), and Jesus accepts that title in Matt. 27:11, "Now Jesus stood before the governor, and the governor questioned Him, saying, 'Are You the King of the Jews?' And Jesus said to him, 'It is as you say.'” Matt. 21:5 speaks of Jesus and says, "Behold your King is coming to you, gentle, and mounted on a donkey." Remember, Jesus is King in that he rules and judges. "And I saw heaven opened; and behold, a white horse, and He who sat upon it is called Faithful and True; and in righteousness He judges and wages war." (Rev. 19:11). The armies follow him (Rev. 19:14).

The phrase, "Kingdom of God," occurs 66 times in the NASB--most of them in the synoptic gospels. “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.” (Mark 1:14). Jesus taught us to pray, "Thy Kingdom come." (Matt. 6:10). Is there a kingdom of God without a King? No. Jesus is that king: "'Are You the King of the Jews?' And Jesus said to him, 'It is as you say.'" (Matt. 27:11).

Does his three offices diminish Christ's deity?
No, they do not. Jesus is still fully divine and human even now (Col. 2:9) and presently holds the three offices mentioned above. It is simply a manifestation of the work of the person of Christ who is Prophet, Priest, and King. By the way, God is called the King in Psalm 95:3, "For the Lord is a great God, and a great King above all gods." So, if it does not diminish God's deity to be called a king, then it does not diminish or deny Christ's deity by calling him a King--or, for that matter, a Prophet and a Priest.

 

[Redemptionsong]

I can confess that Jesus as Christ is Lord to the Glory of God the Father.

It was the Glory of God, the Father that showed me the Love of Jesus the Christ.

You do know that Baha'u'llah translated means the 'Glory of God' or 'Glory of the Lord'

Regards Tony

If Baha'u'llah truly speaks the words of the Holy Spirit, then one still has to learn from his words written down as a teaching. Baha'u'llah does not baptise with the Holy Spirit!

The Holy Spirit that I know is a Spirit that takes up its abode in the human heart. The Holy Spirit can speak to a believer at any hour of the day or night. Isn't that better than having to resort to a book for guidance? If you don't have the Spirit within you, then, surely, you are still under the law.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

If Baha'u'llah truly speaks the words of the Holy Spirit, then one still has to learn from his words written down as a teaching. Baha'u'llah does not baptise with the Holy Spirit!

The Holy Spirit that I know is a Spirit that takes up its abode in the human heart. The Holy Spirit can speak to a believer at any hour of the day or night. Isn't that better than having to resort to a book for guidance? If you don't have the Spirit within you, then, surely, you are still under the law.

That is exactly the way it does work.

The Bread, the Wine and Fire of the Spirit is partaken of our heart.

Outward symbols and flesh bodies are not needed when one is born into the Spirit that Was, Is and Will be Jesus the Christ.

Jesus said He had much more to say unto us and that the Spirit of Truth would return to guide us unto all truth.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

If they talk about a second coming they do not refer to Jesus since Jesus said He was not coming back ti earth.

Well, I think the Lamb is the one it says will return. I think it at the very least implies that the Lamb is Jesus. I think Investigate Truth was the one that pointed out that the word used in Revelation for "Lamb" is different than the word used in the gospels. So he was saying the "Lamb that was slain" is The Bab. No Christian has come up with a reason why Revelation uses a different word. But still, in context, I think the "Lamb" is Jesus. But really, who really trusts the strange, strange vision of some guy that no one knows for sure which John it was? Plus, it had problems getting voted into the NT by the council of Christian leaders. That's why in that other thread I was going along with all religions are manmade.

 

[Skywalker]

To take the Baha'i side on this... what is wrong with Jesus being "virtually" God? Like the Baha'is say that Jesus was like a perfectly polished mirror that reflected God? As far as we know he looked, acted and was God.

Then on the Christian side, who has the power to forgive sin. Apparently God alone. But Jesus, to prove he had that authority and power forgave a man's sin then healed him.

Next, why would God, a spirit, need a second separate spirit, the Holy Spirit? Why wouldn't that be like an emanation from God or something?

Then, why did God, the creator of all this, need to create Satan, then cast him to Earth, just to mess with people and deceive them? God knew that people would fall. Why would he let so many people in far off lands follow "false" Gods and go through hundreds and even thousands of years before they ever knew of the God of Israel and Jesus? By the time they did hear of Jesus, a lot of them heard the Catholic version of Christianity. Why did he make a provision for Jews to temporally have their sins forgiven by killing and burning an animal?

Then his permanent plan was to have his son die to pay the penalty. And who is really saved? Since no one ever stops doing things considered "sin", therefore no one really can or does repent of all sin, then even the ones "saved" are still sinners. Yet some sinners, who think they are Christian and say they are Christian, won't get into heaven? Because they didn't believe sincerely? How sincerely is sincerely if all Christians still fall short of being perfect? Others fall short because they believe the wrong details about Jesus.

Then the problem with the Baha'i explanation. If they are right. I don't see when Christians ever understood and taught the correct message about God and Jesus. As long as they were preaching about Satan and hellfire and Jesus rising from the dead, according to the Baha'is, Christians were teaching false doctrines.

Quoted from carm.org about the doctrine of the Godhead.
Trinity, The | CARM.org

The word "trinity" is not found in the Bible. Nevertheless, it is a word used to describe one fact the Bible teaches about God: Our God is a Trinity. This means there are three persons in one God and not three Gods. The persons are known as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and they have all always existed as three distinct persons. The person of the Father is not the same person as the Son. The person of the Son is not the same person as the Holy Spirit. The person of the Holy Spirit is not the same person as the Father. If you take away any one, there is no God. God has always been a Trinity from all eternity: "From everlasting to everlasting, You are God," (Psalm 90:2).

God is not one person who took three forms, i.e., the Father who became the Son, who then became the Holy Spirit. This belief is known today as the "Jesus Only Movement" (also known as Oneness Pentecostalism). It is taught by the United Apostolic and United Pentecostal churches and is an incorrect teaching.

Nor is God only one person as the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Way International, and the Christadelphians teach. (These groups are classified as non-Christian cults). For proof that there is more than one person in the Godhead, see the Plurality Study.

The Bible says that there is only one God. Yet, it says that Jesus is God (John 1:1, 14). It says that the Father is God (Phil. 1:2), and it says that the Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4). Since the Son speaks to the Father, they are distinct persons. Since the Holy Spirit speaks also (Acts 13:2), He is a distinct person. There is one God who exists in three persons.

The following chart should help you understand how the Trinity doctrine is derived:

T H E T R I N I T Y
Father Son Holy Spirit

Called God Phil. 1:2 John 1:1, 14, Col. 2:9 Acts 5:3-4
Creator Isaiah 64:8, 44:24 John 1:3, Col. 1:15-17 Job 33:4, 26:13
Resurrects 1 Thess. 1:10 John 2:19, 10:17 Rom. 8:11
Indwells 2 Cor. 6:16 Col. 1:27 John 14:17
Everywhere 1 Kings 8:27 Matt. 28:20 Psalm 139:7-10
All-knowing 1 John 3:20 John 16:30, 21:17 1 Cor. 2:10-11
Sanctifies 1 Thess. 5:23 Heb. 2:11 1 Pet. 1:2
Life-giver Gen. 2:7, John 5:21 John 1:3, 5:21 2 Cor. 3:6, 8
Fellowship 1 John 1:3 1 Cor. 1:9 2 Cor. 13:14, Phil. 2:1
Eternal Psalm 90:2 Micah 5:1-2 Rom. 8:11, Heb. 9:14
A Will Luke 22:42 Luke 22:42 1 Cor. 12:11
Speaks Matt. 3:17, Luke 9:25 Luke 5:20, 7:48 Acts 8:29, 11:12, 13:2
Love John 3:16 Eph. 5:25 Rom. 15:30
Searches the heart Jer. 17:10 Rev. 2:23 1 Cor. 2:10
We belong to John 17:9 John 17:6
Savior 1 Tim. 1:1, 2:3, 4:10 2 Tim. 1:10, Titus 1:4, 3:6
We serve Matt. 4:10 Col. 3:24
Believe in John 14:1 John 14:1
Gives joy John 15:11 John 14:7
Judges John 8:50 John 5:21, 30

 

[Nakosis]

I agree, terrorist is the wrong word.
Its as you say.

Thus the psycho monster.

It's not unheard of to blame one's acts of terrorism on one's God.

Personally, I don't believe there is a God going about telling folks what they ought to be doing.