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Featured Christianity vs Baha'i

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Nakosis, Nov 20, 2020.

  1. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    I read his book some time ago. He is a fantastic writer, but he has absolutely no scholarship and every thing is assumption and based on interviews and what people believe. Its just very simple polemics and apologetics. Nothing more. I was highly disappointed. To me, it was absurd.
     
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  2. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
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    As discussed above important themes of Daniel/The book of Revelations and Daniel 8 specifically are:

    1/ The exile and establishment of the state of Israel and;

    2/ The restoration and desecration of Jewish worship through the Temple.

    The two empires mentioned in Daniel 8 are the Persians and Greeks. Persians represent the return of the Jews to their homeland and the restoration of both Jerusalem and the Temple. The Greeks on the other hand desecrate the Temple. The Greeks have anti-Christ like figure in Antioch IV whereas the Persians have a Christ like figure with Cyrus.

    Daniel 8:14 KJV states:

    And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

    Artaxerxes's (A Persian Emperor) decree to rebuild Jerusalem leads to the restoration of Temple. The same starting point is also used for Daniel 9:24-27 and after 490 weeks (years) Christ is crucified. So this is a logical starting point. Admittedly there are other starting points that could be used but this is the one that makes the most sense considering Daniel/The book of Revelation in its entirety and Daniel 8 specifically.

    If you find a better starting point, please let me know!:D
     
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  3. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Daniel 8:11 It set itself up to be as great as the commander of the army of the Lord; it took away the daily sacrifice from the Lord, and his sanctuary was thrown down. 12 Because of rebellion, the Lord’s people and the daily sacrifice were given over to it...
    When did the daily sacrifice get taken away?

    13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, “How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the Lord’s people?”

    14 He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.”
    When did it get restored? More specifically, did Antiochus Epiphanes stop it? And after the Maccabean Revolt did it get restored? How long in-between?
     
  4. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
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    You may be interested that the Christian interpretation you linked earlier has now been updated, as the author had to revise his opinion based on historical problems with applying the Herodotus’ 360-day year length to the Maccabean era. The revised version of the article is dated 13/12/2020 so you can be forgiven for using the older version that is now redundant.

    The Daniel 9:24-27 Project - Associates for Biblical Research

    The author Rick Lanser seems to have developed somewhat of an obsession over the prophecies in Daniel and what appeared to a precise answer to the question of the end and then recommencement of the Temple sacrifice several years ago, is no longer so clear today.

    So in answer to your question about when precisely the sacrifice was taken away, it is a matter for historians to determine.

    In your original, but now obsolete article, Lanser references Fred Miller:

    In what follows I am indebted to Fred P. Miller for the keen insights into the prophecy of Daniel 8 in the following analysis, posted at 1-2.htm. He points out that precise dates for the beginning and end of Antiochus' desecration of the Second Temple are known. 1 Maccabees 1:54 gives us the date of the abomination as Kislev (December) 15, 167 BC, while 1 Maccabees 4:52–53 tells us the Temple was rededicated on Kislev 25, 164 BC. (The Jews remember this date in their celebration of Hanukkah.) These two dates span a total of 3 years and 10 days.

    However this span of 3 years and 10 days was based on assumption Fred Millers (not to be confused with William Miller) that a Herodotus 360 day calendar could be applied to the Maccabean era and thus the precise dates would coincide nicely with the 1150 days or 2,300 mornings and evenings as in Daniel 8:14. Lanser has now recognized problems with that approach.

    However if it was all that simple Daniel 8:26 would not have made the statement:

    And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.


    The Jewish Temple was reconsecrated through the Persians again. This time through the declaration of the Bab 23/5/1844, 2,300 years after Artaxerxes's decree to rebuild Jerusalem in 457 BC. Don't forget to subtract a year going from BC to AD. Also recall that Jesus became the Temple and the new place through whom man can best worship God.

    Oh, you mean that restoration....

    I agree that Antiochus stopped it and it restored some 3 years after the Maccabean revolt. The exact period no longer precisely fits the 1150 days as Lanser originally thought. However the event has value as an allegory to draw attention to the theme of desecration and restoration over a larger time frame. Of course Lanser remains adamant in his conclusion the 2,300 mornings and evenings shouldn't refer to years.

    However as Lanser points out early in his article:

    One website (2300 Days of Daniel 8:14 | Daniel’s Vision) observed that, of an assortment of “prominent scholars” between the years AD 430–1781 that dealt with the meaning of the 2,300 “evenings and mornings,” 21 claimed the 2,300 days represented years; six said they denoted the number of days to reach the end of the world; three claimed the period was 2,300 literal days; and one opined that the time represented 1,150 24-hour days. Folks, this diversity of opinion—which continues to our day—does not exactly engender confidence that a solution can be easily found! Nor does it mean that I, who would boldly sally forth into theological territory the prudent avoid, can come up with a better alternative than those who have gone before me.

    So the vast majority of Christian papers to date have used 2,300 days to mean years.

    Good luck to Lanser with his ongoing research.
     
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  5. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    I don't see how it fits. Did the daily sacrifice stopped in 456BC? And not until 2300 years later it got rededicated? And then how does making Jesus "the Temple" help? Was he desecrated and then rededicated and in what year? And then even if the Jewish Temple got rededicated, it later got destroyed by the Romans. So, still why start in 456BC? If anything, at some point back then the Temple probably got rededicated but not desecrated?
     
  6. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    Many Christains await a 3rd Temple.

    The Temple is the Manifestation. Baha'u'llah offers this in "The Summons of the Lord of Hosts".

    ".. Thus have We built the Temple with the hands of power and might, could ye but know it. This is the Temple promised unto you in the Book. Draw ye nigh unto it. This is that which profiteth you, could ye but comprehend it. Be fair, O peoples of the earth! Which is preferable, this, or a temple which is built of clay? Set your faces towards it. Thus have ye been commanded by God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Follow ye His bidding, and praise ye God, your Lord, for that which He hath bestowed upon you. He, verily, is the Truth. No God is there but He. He revealeth what He pleaseth, through His words “Be and it is”.

    Regards Tony
     
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