Christianity All Power Seized

[Nimos]

I suppose that there are many more assumptions you would have to make to embrace the "thin air" hypothesis...

Let's hypothesize the explantion with less assumptions first.

Ok in that case, it would be the aliens right? (As I doubt you would accept a natural explanation.)

So let's put it to the test. Aliens are advanced extraterrestrial beings, is that an plausible?

1) Given that the Universe is 14.7 billion years old and Earth roughly 4.5 billion, that leaves us with a few billions of years where another lifeform could have evolved and become a highly advanced civilization.

2) We know that life can exist in the Universe as we are living examples of such ourselves, therefore it is definitely possible for others lifeforms to exist as well.

3) Seeing how technology and our understanding of the natural world have evolved in just a few thousand years, from simple stone tools to landing on the moon. It is impossible to guess what an alien civilization that have been around for million of years would be capable of.

4) Clearly if we know the following after just a few thousand years:
All things are made of atoms, and all atoms are made of the same three basic particles - protons, neutrons, and electrons. But, all atoms are not the same. You know that the number of protons in an atom determines what element you have.

Is it unreasonable to think that an alien race, being around for millions of years, would know slightly more about how the Universe works? And therefore would be able to travel to Earth to create an island, that we perceive as being beautiful, but which they ended up not to, so they left again?

Honestly, there are a quite a bit loose ends and things that are not explained. but is it completely impossible given what we know about the Universe? I don't think so.

So what evidence or plausible explanations can you provide for God, making the island if you think that is a more simple explanation with less assumptions?

 

[thomas t]

Ok in that case, it would be the aliens right? (As I doubt you would accept a natural explanation.)

the natural explanation would be more complex, as I see it.
Let's hypothesize the less complex explanation.

So what evidence or plausible explanations can you provide for God, making the island if you think that is a more simple explanation with less assumptions?

A loving God making the island is the explanation (the hypothesis explaining the fact) for the island being beautiful.
Explaining the phenomenon that we perceive the island as beautiful.
So, I see the island as evidence for a loving God.
A loving God is the explanation with less assumtions in it.

I'm not arguing against the alien hypothesis here.
I was arguing in favor of the loving creator proposition. I call that one God.

 

[Nimos]

the natural explanation would be more complex, as I see it.
Let's hypothesize the less complex explanation.

A loving God making the island is the explanation (the hypothesis explaining the fact) for the island being beautiful.
Explaining the phenomenon that we perceive the island as beautiful.
So, I see the island as evidence for a loving God.
A loving God is the explanation with less assumtions in it.

I'm not arguing against the alien hypothesis here.
I was arguing in favor of the loving creator proposition. I call that one God.

I really don't get your reasoning... you have nothing but assumptions in your explanation.

So the idea that it just materialized out of thin air is as good an explanation as God did it.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

After the misguided rulers are finished trying to do away with religion, they will come to realise that the answer to our unity lays within Faith and then and only then is when the New Day of God will dawn in the minds of men and will be wholeheartedly embraced by a significant number of the peoples of the world.
Regards Tony

However, Not according to the Bible. The political ' kings ' will suddenly turn on the religious ' queen ' (Revelation 18:7-8)
Even the business world ( Revelation 18:11-15) will mourn the loss of Religion. That is mourn the loss of revenue that is $$$$$$$$$$.

 

[thomas t]

I really don't get your reasoning... you have nothing but assumptions in your explanation.

So the idea that it just materialized out of thin air is as good an explanation as God did it.

if makes sense to select the hypothesis with the fewest assumptions. This is applying Occam's Razor. Occam's razor - Wikipedia
Note that other hypotheses - such as naturalistic ones - have nothing but assumtions for explaining the phenomenon of perceived beauty, too.
We always have a set of assumptions if we want to explain such a phenomenon.

Thomas

 

[Nimos]

if makes sense to select the hypothesis with the fewest assumptions. This is applying Occam's Razor. Occam's razor - Wikipedia
Note that other hypotheses - such as naturalistic ones - have nothing but assumtions for explaining the phenomenon of perceived beauty, too.
We always have a set of assumptions if we want to explain such a phenomenon.

Thomas

But you don't just throw Occam's razor in as a principle, trying to find answers, when your solution have no explanatory power. We have a very good understanding and evidences to why and how island forms, why tree and plants look the way they do. So there is no need to apply OR here, when you already have a much better explanation.

And since you have no evidence supporting that God have created anything and nothing to really support the hypothesis either, then that is not the most simple explanation. That is why I said, that the hypothesis that it materialized out of thin air, is equally good, because nothing support that either.

The hypothesis with the aliens, is at least plausible given what we know about reality. Even though it is also highly unlikely to be the solution.

That you don't accept or understand the natural explanation of how these things work, doesn't mean that they are wrong. Simply that you haven't cared to look at the evidence and therefore you do not apply OR in such case.

 

[thomas t]

But you don't just throw Occam's razor in as a principle, trying to find answers, when your solution have no explanatory power.

it has as much explanatory power as any other. Why do we perceive this island as beautiful? Hypothesis: because God made it so! Great explanatory power.

So there is no need to apply OR here, when you already have a much better explanation. [...]
Simply that you haven't cared to look at the evidence and therefore you do not apply OR in such case.

you don't have any.

And since you have no evidence supporting that God have created anything

no, you don't have any evidence supporting that a purely naturalitic event made the island look that beautiful. I Also mean the whole of the landscape. Including the surrouding water and the sky above.
So Occam's razor does nicely apply.
EDITED typo

 

[Nimos]

you don't have any.

Do you think that the 1000s of scientists that work in these fields are just making up stuff, and all the others go: "Yeah that's sounds fine"? That is not how science works.

no, you don't have any evidence supporting that a purely naturalitic event made the island look that beautiful. I Also mean the whole of the landscape. Including the surrouding water and the sky above.
So Occam's razor does nicels apply.

There are lots of evidence, you just don't care to look at them or outright deny them.

As Most of us know, the majority of the Caribbean Islands were formed by volcanic and tectonic plate activity. Tectonic plates wrestled and moved against each other to force one plate towards the ocean's surface to create new Islands.

That is one way islands can be created.

Iceland was formed from volcanic eruptions on the Mid-Atlantic ridge. Iceland was formed for about 24 million years. Iceland is the only place where you can stand on the ridge on dry land. That makes Iceland very special and a popular place for geologists to visit and do their researches.

When you read these things, do you just straight up refuse them as being made up? And there is no science behind it?

 

[thomas t]

Do you think that the 1000s of scientists that work in these fields are just making up stuff, and all the others go: "Yeah that's sounds fine"? That is not how science works.

no. But since you came up with your claim that there is a naturalistic explanation based on evidence... the onus is on you to substanciate your claim.

There are lots of evidence, you just don't care to look at them or outright deny them.

that's untrue.

As Most of us know, the majority of the Caribbean Islands were formed by volcanic and tectonic plate activity. Tectonic plates wrestled and moved against each other to force one plate towards the ocean's surface to create new Islands.

That is one way islands can be created.

that wasn't my point. My point: we perceive the island as beautiful.

When you read these things, do you just straight up refuse them as being made up? And there is no science behind it?

no, they just miss my point. That's all. My point centered around its beauty.
This is what I was going to explain by "God did it".

 

[Nimos]

that wasn't my point. My point: we perceive the island as beautiful.

But beauty is subjective, just because we think it looks nice doesn't make it an objective fact, that everyone likes it.

Its like taking this image:

Some like it and some don't, same goes with the island, furthermore it's not like im all that excited about it, I prefer mountains and rough environments, like this as I find it a whole lot more interesting:

But regardless of whether our perception is objective or subjective. You can't just throw God into it and expect people to accept that explanation. You still have to demonstrate it, which you haven't and therefore it is not even a simple explanation, it's not an explanation at all.

 

[thomas t]

You can't just throw God into it and expect people to accept that explanation. You still have to demonstrate it, which you haven't and therefore it is not even a simple explanation, it's not an explanation at all.

it is an explanation for the perceived beauty.
The underlying premise being that all or most people perceive the beautiful island as beautiful indeed.
I think it's a valid explanation, I think. What is there to demonstrate? Do mean proof?
It's a hypothesis. If I could prove it... it wouldn't be a hypothesis.
So please tell me: what do you mean by demonstrate?

 

[DPMartin]

This thread is a result of a comment made in;

The Bible a sure Spiritual Guide.

The comment was:

".... God drowned almost all of humanity. Then he drowned the Egyptian army. He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. He had his people kill every living thing in Jericho. He had Elijah kill the prophets of Baal. God didn't seem to like anyone, but his chosen people. And, even with them, it was tough love"."

I personally see God gives a Message as to how Humanity can find Unity and Peace in submission to that Message and the Laws that Message contains.

At the same time the Message of hope also contains the warning of the results of the neglect of that Message.

I see history has repeated. For the purpose of this thread, I offer the view we live in a world where our neglect of a Message, is again reaping the results of our neglect to embrace it.

Imagine as we live a couple of hundred years ago and are a Christian. The Pope and ecclesiastical branch and the priests of other branches that had control over men's minds. It was they that were controlling how people were to see Jesus and Christ, it was they that told the masses how they should see the Bible.

But change was in the air, mankind was awakening to find their own voice in these matters and the change came in the mid 1800's, a time of mass expectation in Christianity.

Pope Pius IX received a letter from a prisoner, from the Holy land no less and when he opened the Letter He would read;

"O Pope! Rend the veils asunder. He Who is the Lord of Lords is come overshadowed with clouds, and the decree hath been fulfilled by God, the Almighty, the Unrestrained. Dispel the mists through the power of thy Lord, and ascend unto the Kingdom of His names and attributes. Thus hath the Pen of the Most High commanded thee at the behest of thy Lord, the Almighty, the All-Compelling. He, verily, hath again come down from Heaven even as He came down from it the first time. Beware that thou dispute not with Him even as the Pharisees disputed with Him without a clear token or proof.... "

The rest of the letter is here.

The Summons of the Lord of Hosts | Bahá’í Reference Library

The letter goes on to offer Promise and warnings of neglect of embracing the promise contained within.

The Pope chose neglect and one of the warnings was that all Power would be seized from the Pope and Ecclesiastes. That they no longer will have the authority to guide the mind of men.

The stage is set. If the Message the Pope read is from God, then....

All Power to influence humanity as a whole no longer resides in the Christain faith as it is now been recorded, “Power hath been seized” indeed from both “kings and ecclesiastics.” The glory of the former has been eclipsed, the power of the latter irretrievably lost.

The question is.

Can it be seen that that power has been seized?

The Debate is about Scriptural promises and warnings. If we have been warned, can we blame the Messenger, who is the voice of God and thus can we blame God for our neglect?

Regards Tony

you can't change human nature with human nature so you should expect man to return to his own ways. the more "hope and faith" in mankind the more stupid it gets. its the Lord God's intervening in man's affairs that keeps man from his destiny of self destruction. keep your eyes on Israel that is where the action is.

as far as seize of power what power, power of the Lord God, or what's within man's reach?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

you can't change human nature with human nature so you should expect man to return to his own ways. the more "hope and faith" in mankind the more stupid it gets. its the Lord God's intervening in man's affairs that keeps man from his destiny of self destruction. keep your eyes on Israel that is where the action is.

as far as seize of power what power, power of the Lord God, or what's within man's reach?

I do see man does indeed turn to his own ways, all to often, and it is why I see God send His Messengers.

Their power of influence is creative, as they are God's purpose for humanity. As such, their Messages permeate existance, and our collective mind, and over time change happens, even if men are not aware that change is happening. The last 200 years have been directing us towards our unity, where we will become one people, with one God, on one planet that we all call home.

I do see that we have not grasped the significance of God's Messages, that human nature clouds the Sun of Truth.

I also see Haifa in Isreal is a light shining to all humanity. We should all be building strong loving communities, and we eventually will......

.... Instead at this time, we have this world.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

However, Not according to the Bible. The political ' kings ' will suddenly turn on the religious ' queen ' (Revelation 18:7-8)
Even the business world ( Revelation 18:11-15) will mourn the loss of Religion. That is mourn the loss of revenue that is $$$$$$$$$$.

I see that is unfolding, but not in the same way as you have offfered.

All the best, regards Tony

 

[Nimos]

it is an explanation for the perceived beauty.
The underlying premise being that all or most people perceive the beautiful island as beautiful indeed.
I think it's a valid explanation, I think. What is there to demonstrate? Do mean proof?
It's a hypothesis. If I could prove it... it wouldn't be a hypothesis.
So please tell me: what do you mean by demonstrate?

As I said earlier, It's fine if you believe it, have no problem with that. Simply saying that it is no more useful, than me saying that it materialized out of thin air or that aliens made it. Yet you keep assuming that your explanation is more plausible, because it is the one with least assumptions, which it just isn't.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I see that is unfolding, but not in the same way as you have offered. All the best, regards Tony

Perhaps with a bad economy the wealth $$$$$$$$$$$ the corrupted religions have amassed would be easy taking by the political even through the banking system.

 

[thomas t]

it is the one with least assumptions, which it just isn't.

it is, in my opinion. Noone can present an explanation with less assumptions. So Occam's Razor nicely applies here. Especially to your "it materialized out of thin air" hypothesis.

 

[Aupmanyav]

This thread is a result of a comment made in: The Bible a sure Spiritual Guide.
The Debate is about Scriptural promises and warnings. If we have been warned, can we blame the Messenger, who is the voice of God and thus can we blame God for our neglect?

The topic is about Bahai proselytization. Who cares or worries about scriptural promises and warnings?
Who accepts God and who accepts that 19th Century Iranian preacher as a messenger of God?

I was arguing in favor of the loving creator proposition. I call that one God.

Ah, and then he would insert volcanoes, earthquakes, typhoons, tornadoes, forest fires, floods and droughts, and diseases like small pox, plague, cancers, heart attacks, diabetes, Ebola, HIV, tuberculosis, malaria, SARS, Covid-19, locusts, elephantisis, even in children in that beautiful island. Not only that, he would threaten with eternal hell if we were not to worship him. Is that your loving God Thomas T?

 

[Nimos]

it is, in my opinion. Noone can present an explanation with less assumptions. So Occam's Razor nicely applies here. Especially to your "it materialized out of thin air" hypothesis.

Well how did God come into existences? You assume that he was always there right? So you made him materialize out of thin air, if we are to be honest. Which is the only assumption I make as well. So what exactly is the difference?

 

[DPMartin]

I do see man does indeed turn to his own ways, all to often, and it is why I see God send His Messengers.

Their power of influence is creative, as they are God's purpose for humanity. As such, their Messages permeate existance, and our collective mind, and over time change happens, even if men are not aware that change is happening. The last 200 years have been directing us towards our unity, where we will become one people, with one God, on one planet that we all call home.

I do see that we have not grasped the significance of God's Messages, that human nature clouds the Sun of Truth.

I also see Haifa in Isreal is a light shining to all humanity. We should all be building strong loving communities, and we eventually will......

.... Instead at this time, we have this world.

Regards Tony

what or who's god are you talking about. not every religion worships or acknowledges the same god or gods if applies. a god of man's likeness and image isn't a Living God.