I do not beleive that in any way shape or form.
I see Christ has all power given by God.
Regards Tony
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Christianity All Power Seized
- Thread starter TransmutingSoul
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- baha'u'llah christendom faith god pope priest
I do not beleive that in any way shape or form.
I see Christ has all power given by God.
Regards Tony
The Key here that the promises is Jesus the Chrst will be with us to the end of the age, thus when the new age begins, we have new decisions to make. As the Father will come in a New Name and show us of what Christ did offer.
Regards Tony
It may not be a person that uses the name Christain, that will fulfill this requirement in the New Day of God.
Regards Tony
It's not clear to me what you're saying.
Are you saying you don't believe the Bible is true?
Or are you saying you don't believe the Bible says all power and authority currently resides with Jesus Christ?
If the later, I can demonstrate the Bible does say precisely that.
It is impossible for your viewpoint to be true based on what the Bible already says will happen.
We see in Revelation the following things happen in order:
1. That followers of Christ continue to do His will, by His power, until the end times tribulation.
2. At which point Jesus returns to rule and reign with His church over the earth for 1,000 years.
3. After which the world is tested one last time and then the earth is destroyed by fire an a new world is created. It is the total fulfillment of God's plan for man.
4. Eternity with Christ begins.
So no where in this does it leave any room for your belief to be true.
You can't say that power and authority is currently no longer with the Christians unless you want to say the Bible isn't true.
Because we know Jesus's hasn't returned yet.
And the 1,000 year reign hasn't even begun, much less ended.
And we definitely know the world hasn't been totally destroyed and restarted as a new creation.
The Bible tells us that by definition you cannot have the power and authority of Christ to operate in without being in Christ. Which means obeying Christ. Which means by definition you'd be a "Christian".
A Christian by definition is one who follows Christ. The original orgin of that word is "little christ". Meaning "one who is like Christ". And we know by definition in John 15 that one who obeys Christ will love like Christ. So to obey/follow Christ and be like Him are one in the same.
Therefore, it is impossible for you to claim that anyone could replace Christians to operate in the power and authority of Christ when being a "Christian" by definition is what is required to in order to partake in said power and authority.
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
You have raised some very valid points. So, do you think that religion has seen its day because this is the scientific age, so science can replace religion? Baha’is believe this is an entirely new cycle of religion, a new age, the age of reason and science, so the older superstitions religions no longer meet the needs of the times. An essential teaching of the Baha’i Faith is the harmony of science and religion.
Science and Religion
Bahá’ís reject the notion that there is an inherent conflict between science and religion, a notion that became prevalent in intellectual discourse at a time when the very conception of each system of knowledge was far from adequate. The harmony of science and religion is one of the fundamental principles of the Bahá’í Faith, which teaches that religion, without science, soon degenerates into superstition and fanaticism, while science without religion becomes merely the instrument of crude materialism. “Religion,” according to the Bahá’í writings, “is the outer expression of the divine reality. Therefore, it must be living, vitalized, moving and progressive.”1 “Science is the first emanation from God toward man. All created things embody the potentiality of material perfection, but the power of intellectual investigation and scientific acquisition is a higher virtue specialized to man alone. Other beings and organisms are deprived of this potentiality and attainment.”2
So far as earthly existence is concerned, many of the greatest achievements of religion have been moral in character. Through its teachings and through the examples of human lives illumined by these teachings, masses of people in all ages and lands have developed the capacity to love, to give generously, to serve others, to forgive, to trust in God, and to sacrifice for the common good. Social structures and institutional systems have been devised that translate these moral advances into the norms of social life on a vast scale. In the final analysis, the spiritual impulses set in motion by the Founders of the world’s religions—the Manifestations of God—have been the chief influence in the civilizing of human character.
‘Abdu’l-Bahá has described science as the “most noble” of all human virtues and “the discoverer of all things”.3 Science has enabled society to separate fact from conjecture. Further, scientific capabilities—of observing, of measuring, of rigorously testing ideas—have allowed humanity to construct a coherent understanding of the laws and processes governing physical reality, as well as to gain insights into human conduct and the life of society.
Taken together, science and religion provide the fundamental organizing principles by which individuals, communities, and institutions function and evolve.
(Excerpts from: Science and Religion | What Bahá’ís Believe)
According to the teachings of the Baha’i Faith, religion needs to be renewed in every age and if religion had not been renewed it would have died out long, long ago. When a religion has fulfilled its purpose, God sends a new Messenger to renew religion.
“And now concerning thy question regarding the nature of religion. Know thou that they who are truly wise have likened the world unto the human temple. As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 81
Moreover, religions are like seasons of the year, and when a season ends religion becomes barren and lifeless, so it needs to be renewed. Throughout religious history, God speaks to men precisely at times when they have reached the nadir of their degradation and cultural decadence.
“All that lives, and this includes the religions, have springtime, a time of maturity, of harvest and wintertime. Then religion becomes barren, a lifeless adherence to the letter uninformed by the spirit, and man’s spiritual life declines. When we look at religious history, we see that God has spoken to men precisely at times when they have reached the nadir of their degradation and cultural decadence. Moses came to Israel when it was languishing under the Pharaoh’s yoke, Christ appeared at a time when the Jewish Faith had lost its power and culture of antiquity was in its death those. Muhammad came to a people who lived in barbaric ignorance at the lowest level of culture and into a world in which the former religions had strayed far away from their origins and nearly lost their identity. The Bab addressed Himself to a people who had irretrievably lost their former grandeur and who found themselves in a state of hopeless decadence. Baha’u’llah came to a humanity which was approaching the most critical phase of its history.” (Udo Schaefer, The Light Shineth in Darkness, p. 24)
The Baha’i Faith is a religion that is expanded, updated, in keeping with the needs and requirements of the times. Baha’u’llah met with opposition and persecution precisely because of the new teachings He revealed. New teachings are always resisted by the former religions.
"Baha’u’llah, in his second letter to Napoleon III, responded to the criticism of the founding a new religion in the following way:
More grievous became Our plight from day to day, nay, from hour to hour, until they took Us forth from Our prison and made Us, with glaring injustice, enter the Most Great Prison. And if anyone ask them: “For what crime were they imprisoned?”, they would answer and say: “They, verily, sought to supplant the Faith [Islam] with a new religion!” If that which is ancient be what ye prefer, wherefore, then, have ye discarded that which hath been set down in the Torah and the Evangel? … If this be My crime, then Muhammad, the Apostle of God, committed it before Me, and before Him He Who was the Spirit of God [Jesus], and yet earlier He Who conversed with God [Moses]. – Baha’u’llah, Summons of the Lord of Hosts
To expand on Baha’u’llah’s three examples — of Muhammad, Christ, and Moses — one may say that the new religion that Moses founded was a renewal of the prior religion of Abraham. Similarly, the new religion that Christ established was a renewal of Judaism, from a certain perspective. The new religion that Muhammad established was, in the same sense, a renewal of Christianity.
Baha’is believe that each of these new religions, respectively brought by Moses, Christ, and Muhammad, contained elements of the previous religions. So the phrase “religion renewed” means a Faith that is expanded, updated, in keeping with the needs and requirements of the times. Each new religion brings new teachings from God, enshrined in each new Holy Book……..
The Book of Revelation’s prophetic promise of “a new heaven and a new earth,” by definition, foretells a new religion, a part of heaven and earth. Baha’is believe that the Baha’i Faith is that promised and prophesied new religion – for religion renewed means a new religion!"
(Excerpts from: https://bahaiteachings.org/religion-renewed-means-new-religion)
No I am not saying that. This thread was on that topic.
The Bible a sure Spiritual Guide.
I see all Power is God's alone and God gives that power through Christ. I see the Bible shows the later day Messiah will guide us unto all truth.
I see it is more than probable, as I see it has happened.
I see that is my belief and all that is what happened for my belief to be born in the first place. It indeed happened as you listed. The issue is, Christians are not looking for a new name, nor are they considering a new Jerusalem.
They still await the same flesh of Jesus to return.
It is because the Bible is true, that the power was seized. It is Biblical, as Jesus offered many would call out in His name in the Last Days and He would not know them.
I see the return unfolded in 1844 and Elijah again came first, the Glory of God, the Father entered through the Gate and the reign began.
There will now be another 1000 years before the next Message from God.
That is because it is not the material world that is destroyed. The new creation is the New Word from God and that Word makes all things new.
That definition is very limited. The scope of the following passage does not mean you need to have the name Christain. I say there are just as many Hindu, Buddhists, Zoroastrians, Muslims, people without any faith and Baha'i doing as much of the Fathers will, as there are with the name Christain.
Matthew 12:50 "For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."
I see the definition is again limited. To say only those who call themselves Christains are doing as Christ asked, is insulting to many people.
God works the impossible all the time. God doeth as God so Willeth.
It was Baha'u'llah that said all power was seized, not me. I see what Baha'u'llah has unfolded, to such an extent that every Christain now see they have the right interpretation.
So how many Christains now take what a priest says as nothing but Gospel Truth?
Regards Tony
A Vestigial Mote
Well-Known Member
I specifically made sure to tell you that this was NOT what I was saying. All I was saying was that what you said was not a valid point in your favor.
Unless you can display utility of religion in today's society and conditions (which you probably can on some level), then you are not doing religion any favors by pointing back and saying "religion helped establish civilization." That doesn't matter anymore. Yeah, good, great, "religion was able to help foster civilization" - but can it maintain a consistent track record? That's what matters. Make the points about what it is accomplishing now. And if it doesn't stand up to other ideologies that are doing more in certain areas, then that too should be noted, and not just swept under the rug because "religion did 'X' some several thousand years ago."
exchemist
Veteran Member
What do you mean "all of them met a bad end?". Did Pius IX? He lived to the ripe old age of 86 and is chiefly remembered for calling the first Vatican Council. Did Queen Victoria, who ruled for longer than any previous British monarch, presided over the British Empire as it reached its apogee and lived to 81? Did Wilhelm I of Prussia, who presided over the unification of Germany, lived to the age of 90 and was known subsequently as Wilhelm the Great?
And did any of these rulers he wrote to NOT ignore the message - or Message? Which ones and what did they do about it?
Thank you for the question.
Some of he individual letters were written to these Rulers
I will start with Queen Victoria.
Baha’u’llah’s tablet to Queen Victoria praised her for the British system of parliamentary democracy and commended her for abolishing the slave trade: ‘We have been informed’ he wrote, ‘that you have forbidden the trading in slaves, both men and women. This truly, is what God has enjoined in this wondrous Revelation’.
The queen is the only person who has been said to respond to Baha'ullah's Message. She reportedly responded “If this is of God it will endure; if not, it can do no harm.”
Baha'u'llah said her reign would last and one of her grand-daughters, who became Queen Marie of Rumania embraced the Message of Baha'u'llah and offered to us all this thought;
" The Bahá'í teaching brings peace and understanding. It is like a wide embrace gathering together all those who have long searched for words of hope. It accepts great prophets gone before, it destroys no other creeds and leaves all doors open. Saddened by the continual strife among believers of many confessions and wearied by their intolerance towards one another, I discovered in the Bahá'í teaching the real spirit of Christ so often denied and misunderstood. Unity instead of strife, hope instead of condemnation, love instead of hate, and a great reassurance for all men."
As for Pope Pius IX, a great example how Gods Message works.
Baha'u'llah the prisoner in Akka writes to the Pope in 1868 and at that time the Pope has reached an apex He had now become notable for convoking the Vatican Council in 1868. But there was no response to the call of Bha'u'llah to embrace the new Message from God and the trouble that was brewing came to a conclusion. The Italian nationalists were against the Papal States, which ended in the seizure of the city of Rome in 1870 and the dissolution of the Papal States. The Pope declaring himself a "prisoner of the Vatican" thus he was the last Sovereign Ruler of the Papal States.
The power of the Catholic Church was seized, its wide embracing influence, lost.
The letters written by Baha'u'llah are available. What happened to the rulers now history. I always consider that a prisoner called all humanity to unity, when He did so he offered the Most Great Peace was obtainable if we accepted. It was also recorded what would happen if we did not choose the Most Great Peace, that we must eventually cling to a Lesser Peace only after the world suffered a series of afflictions brought upon our own selves.
This is a massive subject. Regards Tony
What Mirza said is irrelevant to me. I don't see why a Christian would care what he has to say about the Pope.
exchemist
Veteran Member
So Queen Victoria replied , did she? That's interesting. But I note she did not do anything as a result of receiving this Message. Her reply amounts to a polite way of saying "Get lost". And that did her no harm.
As for the pope, the loss of the papal states was obviously inevitable and has been a huge benefit to the Catholic Church. It was quite anachronistic to have a religious leader controlling territory, like a king, in the c.19th.
And Wilhelm I of Prussia seems to have done OK as well.
So your suggestion that they all came to a bad end doesn't stand up.
Both you and any Christian and any person does indeed have that choice.
Our choices make our future and the future of humanity as a whole, thus I wish for you all the best choices.
Regards Tony
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I agree that what matters is what religion is accomplishing now, not what happened in the past. The past is gone.
I do not know what the other world religions are doing about the serious problems that are facing humanity in this new age, I only know what the Baha'i Faith is doing.
What Bahá’ís Do
Since the inception of the Bahá’í Faith in the Nineteenth Century, a growing number of people have found in the teachings of Bahá’u’lláh a compelling vision of a better world. Many have drawn insights from these teachings—for example, on the oneness of humanity, on the equality of women and men, on the elimination of prejudice, on the harmony of science and religion—and have sought to apply Bahá’í principles to their lives and work. Others have gone further and have decided to join the Bahá’í community and participate in its efforts to contribute directly to the realization of Bahá’u’lláh’s stupendous vision for humanity’s coming of age.
Bahá’ís hail from all walks of life. Young and old, men and women alike, they live alongside others in every land and belong to every nation. They share a common goal of serving humanity and refining their inner-lives in accordance with the teachings of Bahá’u’lláh. The community to which they belong is one of learning and action, free from any sense of superiority or claim to exclusive understanding of truth. It is a community that strives to cultivate hope for the future of humanity, to foster purposeful effort, and to celebrate the endeavours of all those in the world who work to promote unity and alleviate human suffering.
What Bahá’ís Do | The Bahá’í Faith
This five minute video will give you a snapshot of what the Baha’i Faith is about and what Baha’is are doing .
I guess it depends greatly as to what one sees is a good end. You have mostly vindicated what Baha'u'llah offered to the Pope. In that letter he advised the Pope he should get out and look after His people and not lay up riches like a King.
Baha'u'llah wrote to Napoleon III to tell him of His demise, as to Wilhelm I of Prussia, this was written;
"Say: O King of Berlin! Give ear unto the Voice calling from this manifest Temple. Take heed lest pride debar thee from recognizing the Dayspring of Divine Revelation, lest earthly desires shut thee out, as by a veil, from the Lord of the Throne above and the earth below. Do thou remember the one whose power transcended thy power (Napoleon III), and whose station excelled thy station? Where is he? Whither are gone the things he possessed? Take warning, and be not of them that are fast asleep. He it was who cast the Tablet of God behind him, when we made known unto him what the host of tyranny had caused Us to suffer. Wherefore, disgrace assailed him from all sides, and he went down to dust in great loss. Think deeply, O King, concerning him, and concerning them who, like unto thee, have conquered cities and ruled over men. The All-Merciful brought them down from their palaces to their graves. Be warned, be of them who reflect."
Baha’u’llah concluded that tablet to William I with these prophecies:
"O banks of the Rhine! We have seen you covered with gore, inasmuch as the swords of retribution were drawn against you; and you shall have another turn. And We hear the lamentations. of Berlin, though she be today in conspicuous glory."
Two world wars resulted from that neglect.
There has never in the history of mankind to date been any better evidence given from a Messenger of God and never so many Prophecies fulfilled, but that stands to reason, as that is what prophecy of the end of ages was all about.
Regards Tony
My Mother is a born again Christian and she was the first to show me how the Christian Faith has lost its power to influence the world as a whole.
I personally see It happens in what I see is Church surfing. That is going to one service after another, trying to find a "fit", the best wave, the best church for her. I see it is a fractured unity in a name Jesus. In her area alone, there are dozens of choices, all with another name over the door.
List of Christian denominations - Wikipedia
A house divided.
Matthew 12:25 "But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand....."
Regards Tony
I personally see It happens in what I see is Church surfing. That is going to one service after another, trying to find a "fit", the best wave, the best church for her. I see it is a fractured unity in a name Jesus. In her area alone, there are dozens of choices, all with another name over the door.
List of Christian denominations - Wikipedia
A house divided.
Matthew 12:25 "But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand....."
Regards Tony
here we disagree.
There is sound evidence for a loving God, I think. Take for instance this countryside: God made it look beautiful, because he loves us. This is at least my stance.
https://pixabay.com/photos/polynesia-french-polynesia-tahiti-3021072/
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Nimos
Well-Known Member
How is that evidence? And it's fair enough that this is what you believe, but it have no explanatory meaning to make such statement. Couldn't I just as well say that some aliens, who really like beautiful things brought life to Earth and that image prove that i'm right?
Give me one reason why that statement is less plausible than yours?
the perception of the landscape is the data, the explanation is God made it look beautiful.
Most people see this landscape as beautiful. That's the data supporting the hypothesis that God made it look beautiful.
Theoretically it could be different and noone would find anything beautiful, for instance.
you basically say the same here: a loving creator created the beauty.
However, your hypothesis is a bit more complex, as I see it.
You need one more assumption as I do.
You seem to assume that humans and your aliens have the same taste.
Let's first hypothesize the explanation that has less complexity.
Nimos
Well-Known Member
No that is not how one reason... I agree the landscape is beautiful, but that doesn't make God the explanation. The only thing the "data" support is that we or a majority of people perceive the landscape as being beautiful. That's it!!
Yes, or I could make the claim that it materialized out of thin air, doesn't really matter what I claim, when I don't have to prove anything anyway.
No, why would I assume that, just because we perceive it as beautiful? For all, I know the aliens could have thrown it here and thought "Jeez, this is not good, we are heading back to our own planet.", which makes perfect sense, as they are not around anymore.
How is God a less complex explanation, the aliens only created Earth, your God is said to have created the whole Universe, is all powerful, all loving and all knowing. For the aliens this is no more complicated than you planting a flower in your garden, because they are really advanced.
This way of reasoning is absolutely useless and nonsense.
the bolded phrase is the one I was going to explain.
this would mean more complexity, as I see it. You would have to assume:
* landscapes can produce themselves out of "thin air"
* in a way that fits the physical laws in place
* in a way that is compatible with man living in it
* in such a way that we perceive it as beautiful
* landscapes suddenly stopped materialzing, as we don't see this happening right now.
I suppose that there are many more assumptions you would have to make to embrace the "thin air" hypothesis...
Let's hypothesize the explantion with less assumptions first.