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Featured Christianity All Power Seized

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by TransmutingSoul, Aug 26, 2020.

  1. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
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    This thread is a result of a comment made in;

    The Bible a sure Spiritual Guide.

    The comment was:

    ".... God drowned almost all of humanity. Then he drowned the Egyptian army. He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. He had his people kill every living thing in Jericho. He had Elijah kill the prophets of Baal. God didn't seem to like anyone, but his chosen people. And, even with them, it was tough love"."

    I personally see God gives a Message as to how Humanity can find Unity and Peace in submission to that Message and the Laws that Message contains.

    At the same time the Message of hope also contains the warning of the results of the neglect of that Message.

    I see history has repeated. For the purpose of this thread, I offer the view we live in a world where our neglect of a Message, is again reaping the results of our neglect to embrace it.

    Imagine as we live a couple of hundred years ago and are a Christian. The Pope and ecclesiastical branch and the priests of other branches that had control over men's minds. It was they that were controlling how people were to see Jesus and Christ, it was they that told the masses how they should see the Bible.

    But change was in the air, mankind was awakening to find their own voice in these matters and the change came in the mid 1800's, a time of mass expectation in Christianity.

    Pope Pius IX received a letter from a prisoner, from the Holy land no less and when he opened the Letter He would read;

    "O Pope! Rend the veils asunder. He Who is the Lord of Lords is come overshadowed with clouds, and the decree hath been fulfilled by God, the Almighty, the Unrestrained. Dispel the mists through the power of thy Lord, and ascend unto the Kingdom of His names and attributes. Thus hath the Pen of the Most High commanded thee at the behest of thy Lord, the Almighty, the All-Compelling. He, verily, hath again come down from Heaven even as He came down from it the first time. Beware that thou dispute not with Him even as the Pharisees disputed with Him without a clear token or proof.... "

    The rest of the letter is here.

    The Summons of the Lord of Hosts | Bahá’í Reference Library

    The letter goes on to offer Promise and warnings of neglect of embracing the promise contained within.

    The Pope chose neglect and one of the warnings was that all Power would be seized from the Pope and Ecclesiastes. That they no longer will have the authority to guide the mind of men.

    The stage is set. If the Message the Pope read is from God, then....

    All Power to influence humanity as a whole no longer resides in the Christain faith as it is now been recorded, “Power hath been seized” indeed from both “kings and ecclesiastics.” The glory of the former has been eclipsed, the power of the latter irretrievably lost.

    The question is.

    Can it be seen that that power has been seized?

    The Debate is about Scriptural promises and warnings. If we have been warned, can we blame the Messenger, who is the voice of God and thus can we blame God for our neglect?

    Regards Tony
     
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  2. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

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    Seems like just a lot of Bahai preaching to me.
     
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  3. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    The comment was accurate to the bible, apologetics doesn't make the atrosities go away. Only a rewrite can do that
     
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  4. Nimos

    Nimos Well-Known Member

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    For just a second, I thought the answer were that everyone should become an atheist and unite against God's wrath...

    [​IMG]
     
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  5. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
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    It is history, it has happened.

    I can not change that, I can choose to see it in a new frame of reference.

    No one has to engage in this debate. Matter of fact, I prefer one stays away if they have nothing positive to offer or a debate point of view to post.

    Regards Tony
     
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  6. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
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    Everyone can choose that path.

    Do you have a sound argument that is what we should do?

    Regards Tony
     
  7. Nimos

    Nimos Well-Known Member

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    Well I think it would be a good start, first of all it would remove a lot of superstition, it would remove the purpose for the Sharia law, which would improve the life for a lot of Muslims. I think it would encourage people to seek answers to questions other places, than they might only have sought out in their religious texts.

    It would most likely increase their interest in natural explanations, rather than superstitions ones, which could and most likely would boost humanity technologically, as more people would be engage in natural sciences. Think about how many people deny certain sciences, how many in the muslim world that is denied access to education, due to religious beliefs.

    I think it would bring people closer together as they would no longer argue based on religious beliefs, but rather based on what we actually know. It would remove some of the barrier between people, due to religious differences. Which would be an improvement in regards to obtaining a unity between people. It would remove a lot of the labels we attach to each other.

    So personally I think, the world would be better off without religions, than it is with them.

    As long as people can fight each other based simply on faith in something, that is not even remotely proven to be true, then we will never be united. And religion can't unite people, because it's impossible for one religion to proof that another religion is wrong, because both make their arguments based on faith without evidence.
     
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  8. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Where do I sign up? :D
     
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  9. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Here is the problem... Looking at those two statements above from the vantage point of a non-Baha'i, nothing momentous happened. Some man who claimed to be a Messenger of God delivered some Tablets to a whole bunch of kings and rulers and religious leaders and they ignored him. And is it even acknowledged by historians, or is it only in the Baha'i Writings that the Tablets were even delivered?
     
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  10. Nimos

    Nimos Well-Known Member

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    Luckily for you, all you have to do is watch this video 5 minutes video and you are a member :D

     
  11. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
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    One can choose to see nothing happened.

    That is the thing about the Word of God, it becomes part of the mind of men, even unconsciously.

    In this thread it is possible to discuss how the power has been seized and how it is now unfolding.

    Regards Tony
     
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  12. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    That is easy for you to say now, but without religions, there never would have been any civilization.

    “The greatest bestowal of God in the world of humanity is religion; for assuredly the divine teachings of religion are above all other sources of instruction and development to man. Religion confers upon man eternal life and guides his footsteps in the world of morality. It opens the doors of unending happiness and bestows everlasting honor upon the human kingdom. It has been the basis of all civilization and progress in the history of mankind.......

    But when we speak of religion we mean the essential foundation or reality of religion, not the dogmas and blind imitations which have gradually encrusted it and which are the cause of the decline and effacement of a nation. These are inevitably destructive and a menace and hindrance to a nation’s life,—even as it is recorded in the Torah and confirmed in history that when the Jews became fettered by empty forms and imitations the wrath of God became manifest...” Bahá’í World Faith, pp. 270, 272

    And atheism can't unite people, because it's impossible for atheism to prove God does not exist and religion is false.

    I believe that eventually all religions will unite under one common banner. I do not know how or when that will happen or what the religion will be called, but I believe it will happen eventually because it was ordained by God.

    “That which the Lord hath ordained as the sovereign remedy and mightiest instrument for the healing of all the world is the union of all its peoples in one universal Cause, one common Faith. This can in no wise be achieved except through the power of a skilled, an all-powerful and inspired Physician. This, verily, is the truth, and all else naught but error.”
    The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 91
     
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  13. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    But I can also stay a member of the Baha'i Faith and be a critical thinker.

    Why do atheists believe they have the corner on the market of critical thinking?
    I can point out as many flaws in their reasoning as they can in mine.
     
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  14. Nimos

    Nimos Well-Known Member

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    I think that is a false assumption to make, as we have nothing to compare to. Furthermore Im not really sure, that religion is the only reason that we have civilizations today, im not even sure how much of an impact it have at all, mostly because I haven't really examined it, so I don't know. But I could come up with many other reasons I would consider way more important.

    First of all humans are social animals, so we have to breed with each other, if we only breed within the same little group all the time, we will experience inbreeding, which is not good. Trading also gives a good reason for why joining together makes sense, as it makes it a lot easier for people to know where to go to get stuff they need. Security is also important, remember back in the days, there were no police, FBI etc to handle crimes. So gathering together in a group increases security, the larger the group and you almost have an army. An army can be used not only to defend against others, but also to go steal other people lands and resources.

    Religion can join people together as well, but to claim that it is the only reason for why civilization could occur im not really sure i agree with. But again, I haven't examine it, but find it highly unlikely to be true.

    Its not up to atheists to prove that God doesn't exist. Just as it is not atheists job to prove whether religious texts are true either. I have said it many times before in our discussions :)

    - You make the claim you prove it. It is as simple as that. -

    I have the right, to not take your claim on faith and therefore not obligated to disprove anything you claim.

    It will never happen, it haven't for as long as humans have been on this Earth. I think, there is a much bigger chance that science will make religions obsolete, it might not happen now, or the next 50 years. But you can't beat facts and evidence in the long run as I see it. And the religious text will simply be so outdated that they will make even less sense than they do now.
     
  15. Nimos

    Nimos Well-Known Member

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    We don't, I think I told you before, that everyone can do critical and rational thinking, in fact a lot of religious people are very good at it. But the moment they enter the territory of their religious beliefs, it all goes out the window.

    I can't explain it, but it's like me asking you whether you believe in the lochness monster?

    To which you will answer, that you don't think it is true because the evidence are not good enough.

    Yet as I see it, the claims that religious people and texts makes are equally weak. However they still choose to believe in it anyway.

    Remember the discussion we had in the other thread? Where you told me that you couldn't see God here on Earth, but that it was through his messengers that we humans should fix things, or something like that?

    If you can't see the effect of God here on Earth, then you have no evidence for him existing in the first place. Therefore a position of him not existing until evidence is provided is more rational than a position where you assume that he exist is, when nothing points in that direction. And to me, that is not to be critical in regards to your own claims. But again, you have no issues doing this with the lochness monster, just not when it comes to your religion.
     
  16. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Obviously, if God is not important, religion is not important; in fact it would be a sham in that case. So it all hinges on whether God exists which unfortunately cannot ever be proven as a fact.

    But there is no way to prove that we would have civilization without religion since we have always had both.
    I am no history buff, but if you read this chapter in its entirety you will get a broad overview of the Baha’i viewpoint on religion in general, within the context of history and its relationship to present day society.

    RELIGION AND CIVILIZATION

    “We will therefore investigate religion, seeking from an unprejudiced standpoint to discover whether it is the source of illumination, the cause of development and the animating impulse of all human advancement. We will investigate independently, free from the restrictions of dogmatic beliefs, blind imitations of ancestral forms, and the influence of mere human opinion; for as we enter this question we will find some who declare that religion is a cause of uplift and betterment in the world, while others assert just as positively that it is a detriment and a source of degradation to mankind. We must give these questions thorough and impartial consideration so that no doubt or uncertainty may linger in our minds regarding them.” Bahá’í World Faith, p. 270
    it is not a believers job to prove whether religious texts are true either. I have said it many times before in our discussions. It is the job of the person who wants to know if it is true, so it is not up to the believer to prove to atheists that God exists or that their religion is true
    But I did not make the claim, Baha'u'llah made the claim, and He had evidence to back His claim. I just believe what He claimed is true.
    Never say never unless you can prove it. ;)

    You cannot know what will happen in the future, but if history continues as it has been going there will always be religion; and as a matter of fact, religion is on the rise and atheism is in the decline.

    Since the year 2000, religion has made resurgence whereas atheism and agnosticism are on the decline.

    The growth rates of the Abrahamic religions from 1910-2010 were as follows: Judaism .11%, Christianity 1.32%, Islam 1.97%, and Baha’i Faith 3.54%.

    Atheism was growing at a rate of 6.54% from 1910-2010 but dropped to a growth rate of 0.05% from 2000-2010. Agnosticism was growing at a rate of 5.45% from 1910-2010 but dropped to a growth rate of 0.32% from 2000-2010. That demonstrates that both atheism and agnosticism are on the decline but also that there are many more agnostics than atheists.

    Statistics from: Growth of religion - Wikipedia

    Atheism growing? No, atheism is actually on the decline!


    16 March 2016, 07:56

    Atheism is not growing despite what atheists may say. Real surveys and statistics say atheism is on the decline worldwide. Sorry atheists but atheism is not on the rise nor is it winning. It's still the minority and a declining one at that.

    The Pew Research Center's statistics show that atheism is expected to continue to decline all the way into 2050 with a continued growth of religion. Other research also shows a huge surge in growth for Christianity in China which is currently the world's most "atheist" nation because of the atheist communist government suppressing religion, the research suggests that China will soon become the world's most Christian nation within 15 years.

    This is simply history repeating itself: Christianity prospered in Rome back in the ancient era when it was suppressed and it still grew in the militant atheist soviet Russia when it was suppressed there only a century ago with the majority of Russians today now also identifying as Christian. Just goes to show that atheist suppression of religion still doesn't stop religion.

    Sources:

    The Future of World Religions: Population Growth Projections, 2010-2050
    Religiously Unaffiliated
    China on course to become 'world's most Christian nation' within 15 years
    http://masterrussian.com/russia/facts.htm

    Atheism growing? No, atheism is actually on the decline!
     
  17. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Why?
    I would hardly compare God to the lochness monster. The only thing they have in common is that we cannot prove they exist, but so what? It makes perfect sense that of God exists and does not want to be proven (the way atheists want Him proven, with objective verifiable evidence). God will never be proven that way, and that means you have to go to Plan B, if you want to believe in God.
    The evidence of God existing on earth are the Messengers of God. As Jesus said, He came into the world to bear witness to the truth, the truth about God:

    John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
    The problem with atheists is that they expect to get objective verifiable evidence for God and that kind of evidence does not and will not ever exist. the upshot is that there is no such evidence as you imagine, so if Messengers are not good enough evidence for you I suggest you give up the ship, because it won't be sailing anywhere. I can certainly understand not accepting Baha'u'llah as evidence since He is a newbie, but anyone who cannot see Jesus as evidence for God had better get a new glasses prescription. :eek:
     
  18. Nimos

    Nimos Well-Known Member

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    Im not a historical expert either, and it's not to be disrespectful, but in regards to history and the rise of human civilizations, I prefer to listen to people actually educated in this field of study rather than a religious view.

    The reason I don't think you will find that any civilization seem to exists (At least what I know of) that doesn't have a religion or spiritual background as well. I think it logic, I even think we have talked about it before, but just as today, people are interested in seeking answers to things we don't know.
    And the fact is, that back in those day there were a lot of things they couldn't explain, I mean how do you explain a lightning strike when you don't know what it is? A shooting star? and the list goes on. I find it perfectly logically why ancient people would explain these things as coming from something more powerful than humans, and therefore we have Gods to explain these things.

    I completely agree, a religious person is not required to prove anything to atheists.

    But you must agree, that atheists are in their good right to call out religious beliefs as being both irresponsibility and harmful in certain cases. And as long as no evidences are provided, that it is irrational for religious people to believe what they do.

    Meaning, if I told you that I believed in the magical smurf, that I would also be irrational for holding such believe.

    Which is fine, you choose to believe him. Whereas I don't, because I find his claim to be so amazing, that I expect equally good evidence. And he haven't supplied it as far as I see.

    Sneaky one :) Well given the fact that it hasn't happened for the last 10000+ years or how old the oldest religion is, I would say that the odds are in my favour :)

    Well, I don't think it looks all that bad to be honest. When it comes to people that do not believe in a god, whatever they might like to refer to themselves as :)

    Religion Adherents Percentage
    Christianity 2.4 billion[1] 29%
    Islam 1.9 billion 24%
    Hinduism 1.2 billion[1] 15.4%
    Secular[a]/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist 1.1 billion 14.1%
    Buddhism 506 million 6%
    Chinese traditional religion[c] 394 million 5%
    Ethnic religions excluding some in separate categories 300 million 3%
    African traditional religions 100 million[4] 1.2%
    Sikhism 23 million 0.29%
    Spiritism 15 million 0.19%
    Judaism 14.7 million[5] 0.18%
    Bahá'í 7.0 million 0.09%
    Jainism 4.2 million 0.05%
    Shinto 4.0 million 0.05%
    Cao Dai 4.0 million 0.05%
    Zoroastrianism 2.6 million 0.03%
    Tenrikyo 2.0 million 0.02%
    Animism 1.9 million 0.02%
    Neo-Paganism 1.0 million 0.01%
    Unitarian Universalism 0.8 million 0.01%
    Rastafari 0.6 million 0.007%

    total 7.79 billion 100%

    Yet I do however still think that science will beat religion, it have done so ever since it got popular and as far as I see it, it's not going to stop. Religion can't deliver answers, which science can and in the end I think that will win over superstition.
     
    #18 Nimos, Aug 26, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2020
  19. Nimos

    Nimos Well-Known Member

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    No it doesn't make sense, that is the issue. You assuming that God doesn't want to be proven, that is not an assumption you are allowed to make in regards to whether or not its a rational position to take in this case. Because it is not based on reality. Its exactly the same for me, if you are allowed to assume that God doesn't want to be proven, then I could make an opposite assumption, that God, if he existed want more than anything to be proven.

    None of these assumptions are based on reality, because neither of us know what a potential God want or doesn't want. Therefore we can't jump to any conclusion before we even know if he exist or not in the first place.

    I don't see any evidence that God exists.... If I understood you correctly, you don't see any evidence for God either, but you believe the claim that Baha'u'llah made. Yet you have no way to verify whether or not he is telling the truth or not. Which make you simply having faith in what he is saying. Therefore you don't have any evidence for God either.

    Therefore based on critical thinking, we do not jump to a conclusion whether or not God exists, at this point we don't know.
    But what we can do, is to look at the information we do have, which is that we currently have no evidence for a God, which again doesn't mean that God doesn't exist!!
    But based on this, the most rational position we can take with the current information available to us at this given point in time, is that until evidence present themselves that a God does exist, is that one doesn't exist. Does that makes sense?

    Let me give you a very quick example, think I might have used it before as well. But its exactly the same, why neither of us, think it is likely for unicorns to exists. It doesn't mean that they don't. But given the current informations available to us at this time, there is no reason for us to assume that they do.

    No, that is not evidence. Its claims that we can't verify.

    Yes, because it's the most rational thing to do. You don't believe that Thor and Odin is real, why don't you just accept that they exist as well? Obviously you can't do that, because that would make God a liar. But yet you don't hold yourself to the same set of standard as you require from atheists, why is that?

    Besides that, who other than God would you blame for the lack of evidence?

    What do you mean? Jesus encourage parents to kill their children should they curse them as the law demand, what type of messenger is that? I would take Baha'u'llah over Jesus any day. :)
     
    #19 Nimos, Aug 26, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2020
  20. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
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    I agree, if they become the cause of disunity it is better off without them.

    Regards Tony
     
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