athanasius
Well-Known Member
MR Writer Said
based on your summary, i don't think i could fairly call him that
My answer
Wow. Again your haughty arrogance comes out. Well if you think you can refute him using your knowledge of the Greek go ahead. But let me ask you this. Are YOU a New testament Greek Scholar? What credentials do you have in Greek? How many years have you studied?
Do you have a Masters or doctorate in New Testament Koine Greek? Have you written books or taught it? What makes you think you can make a better case using Greek than he can if he has far more knowledge of the language than you?? Again this just a example of anti-intellectual fundamentalist boohooing.
Writer also said
if you respect it, feel free to share any of it. If u want
My answer
I will not type six pages worth of info on this board. Father Mateo has demonstrated in 6 pages why this is. If you would like to read it, its in his book “Refuting the attack on Mary” (Pages 20-26). When you read his examples from the Greek in the new testament lets see you refute it with your own knowledge. This I would like to see.
writer also said
Thanks Mr A. But i think you're downright mistaken. I said "kind poster's"---that is, You. Singular. I didn't accuse all Catholics,
My response
Oh, Sorry!!! You just think I Worship Mary! Well, big difference there!!! Again. When Did I ever say I worshipped Mary???????? I never did! So why do you believe I do? This is just sneaky and dishonest wording on your part. YOu(Like most fundamentalist) have the false idea that Catholics worship Mary.
When you said that I did, what you really meant was We(Catholics) do, because I am the one in this debate who is representing the Catholic side. I have already shown you that we do not and have never taught that. And Our Catechsim states this plainly.
Writer said
Catholics do not teach that Mary HAD TO BE to bear Jesus...how much more sinless would you HAVE TO BE to have Jesus..."
So, if i understand u correctly, dear Athanasius, you're teaching what Catholics do not teach?
My response;
Ok, I can admit my wording was not the best for this sentence. The Catholic Church officially teaches(And I assent to their teaching) that Mary didn’t have to be sinless, but Jesus made her sinless(as alluded in Luke 1:28 and Others Passages) because it would be the most "fitting" thing for him to do. Perhaps I should have phrased it this way:
“If the ordinary wisdom of God won’t dwell in a normal Body full of sin(Wisdom 1:4), then it would seem only logical and “fitting” typologically that Jesus (The wisdom of God incarnate(1 Cor 1:24) would gift his mother with this grace, being that he would dwell in her for 9 months literally".
Writer said
Jesus' human nature didn't create His mother. Rather: His mother's human nature, by reproduction, and the Holy Spirit's divine fertilization, created Jesus' humanity.
As God, of course, the Son of God created Mary along with all things
My answer
Thank you for your response. Yes of coarse Jesus Created his mother before he became incarnate. That is not what I am debating here. I simply meant, It would make sense and would seem to be most “fitting” in my mind that Jesus would Honor her and glorify her with this special gift of sinlessness. (the early Christian Fathers of the church who knew Greek thought this too) Think about it.
If you could create your own Mother, would you create her defiled in sin? I sure wouldn’t. The Gospel of Luke (1:28) has been traditionally understood that Jesus didn’t. Jesus being a Jew and the Son of God would have fulfilled the law perfectly.
Part of that law was to “Honor your Mother and father” . In the Hebrew the word for honor literally means to “glorify”. We know he glorified his Father. We also believed he glorified his mother by giving her special grace and creating her sinless(As Luke 1:28 suggest).
We believe he also glorified her and made her the Ark of the new covenant and the New Eve(also as Luke 1 suggest) and the fathers of the Church and Christianity for 2000 years have taught. So sorry but your wrong.
writer said
God didn't create sin, nor sinful humanity. God created man "very good." Sinless. Sin is Satan's own (John 8:44). As you kindly, and accurately, point out: Jesus' mother did not need to be sinless to conceive and deliver Him
My answer
Yes God didn’t create sin! Amen! You are right. But he did make his mother sinless . She did not need to be but we believe(With the church for 2000 years) that he saw that it was “fitting” for her(Since she would fulfill the Old Testament typologies of Eve and the Ark of the covenant) and He glorified her in a way only sons on earth would dream of being able to glorify or honor their mothers. Amen!
based on your summary, i don't think i could fairly call him that
My answer
Wow. Again your haughty arrogance comes out. Well if you think you can refute him using your knowledge of the Greek go ahead. But let me ask you this. Are YOU a New testament Greek Scholar? What credentials do you have in Greek? How many years have you studied?
Do you have a Masters or doctorate in New Testament Koine Greek? Have you written books or taught it? What makes you think you can make a better case using Greek than he can if he has far more knowledge of the language than you?? Again this just a example of anti-intellectual fundamentalist boohooing.
Writer also said
if you respect it, feel free to share any of it. If u want
My answer
I will not type six pages worth of info on this board. Father Mateo has demonstrated in 6 pages why this is. If you would like to read it, its in his book “Refuting the attack on Mary” (Pages 20-26). When you read his examples from the Greek in the new testament lets see you refute it with your own knowledge. This I would like to see.
writer also said
Thanks Mr A. But i think you're downright mistaken. I said "kind poster's"---that is, You. Singular. I didn't accuse all Catholics,
My response
Oh, Sorry!!! You just think I Worship Mary! Well, big difference there!!! Again. When Did I ever say I worshipped Mary???????? I never did! So why do you believe I do? This is just sneaky and dishonest wording on your part. YOu(Like most fundamentalist) have the false idea that Catholics worship Mary.
When you said that I did, what you really meant was We(Catholics) do, because I am the one in this debate who is representing the Catholic side. I have already shown you that we do not and have never taught that. And Our Catechsim states this plainly.
Writer said
Catholics do not teach that Mary HAD TO BE to bear Jesus...how much more sinless would you HAVE TO BE to have Jesus..."
So, if i understand u correctly, dear Athanasius, you're teaching what Catholics do not teach?
My response;
Ok, I can admit my wording was not the best for this sentence. The Catholic Church officially teaches(And I assent to their teaching) that Mary didn’t have to be sinless, but Jesus made her sinless(as alluded in Luke 1:28 and Others Passages) because it would be the most "fitting" thing for him to do. Perhaps I should have phrased it this way:
“If the ordinary wisdom of God won’t dwell in a normal Body full of sin(Wisdom 1:4), then it would seem only logical and “fitting” typologically that Jesus (The wisdom of God incarnate(1 Cor 1:24) would gift his mother with this grace, being that he would dwell in her for 9 months literally".
Writer said
Jesus' human nature didn't create His mother. Rather: His mother's human nature, by reproduction, and the Holy Spirit's divine fertilization, created Jesus' humanity.
As God, of course, the Son of God created Mary along with all things
My answer
Thank you for your response. Yes of coarse Jesus Created his mother before he became incarnate. That is not what I am debating here. I simply meant, It would make sense and would seem to be most “fitting” in my mind that Jesus would Honor her and glorify her with this special gift of sinlessness. (the early Christian Fathers of the church who knew Greek thought this too) Think about it.
If you could create your own Mother, would you create her defiled in sin? I sure wouldn’t. The Gospel of Luke (1:28) has been traditionally understood that Jesus didn’t. Jesus being a Jew and the Son of God would have fulfilled the law perfectly.
Part of that law was to “Honor your Mother and father” . In the Hebrew the word for honor literally means to “glorify”. We know he glorified his Father. We also believed he glorified his mother by giving her special grace and creating her sinless(As Luke 1:28 suggest).
We believe he also glorified her and made her the Ark of the new covenant and the New Eve(also as Luke 1 suggest) and the fathers of the Church and Christianity for 2000 years have taught. So sorry but your wrong.
writer said
God didn't create sin, nor sinful humanity. God created man "very good." Sinless. Sin is Satan's own (John 8:44). As you kindly, and accurately, point out: Jesus' mother did not need to be sinless to conceive and deliver Him
My answer
Yes God didn’t create sin! Amen! You are right. But he did make his mother sinless . She did not need to be but we believe(With the church for 2000 years) that he saw that it was “fitting” for her(Since she would fulfill the Old Testament typologies of Eve and the Ark of the covenant) and He glorified her in a way only sons on earth would dream of being able to glorify or honor their mothers. Amen!