ChatGPT - dumbing down of education?

[Mock Turtle]

Given that some education authorities might be allowing answers/information provided by this AI app from their students (whether acknowledged or not), is such an advance or a retrograde step as to any education system? Given that any individual might be just gaining information as from elsewhere but also might be passing such off as their own thinking that coming from a brighter mind.

Apologies if brought up before, as I have seen a mention of this before but can't recall the thread(s).

 

[Altfish]

Given that some education authorities might be allowing answers/information provided by this AI app from their students (whether acknowledged or not), is such an advance of a retrograde step as to any education system? Given that any individual might be just gaining information as from elsewhere but also might be passing off as their own thinking that coming from a brighter mind.

Apologies if brought up before, as I have seen a mention of this before but can't recall the thread(s).

It is a fine balance, I remember the outrage when calculators were first allowed in exams. Shock - Horror.
There is plenty of software out there that can spot 'exact copy' and plagiarism; examiners learn to modify questions to explore the children's understanding and application of knowledge.

 

[rosends]

Given that some education authorities might be allowing answers/information provided by this AI app from their students (whether acknowledged or not), is such an advance of a retrograde step as to any education system? Given that any individual might be just gaining information as from elsewhere but also might be passing off as their own thinking that coming from a brighter mind.

Apologies if brought up before, as I have seen a mention of this before but can't recall the thread(s).

Yes, there are reasons for concern but they can't be placed solely at the feet of GPT.

New technologies have always required the reimagining of the scope and goal of education. Between calculators, wikipedia and spell-check, we have decided that certain foundational skills are no longer vital. The canny teacher, though, has found a way to co-opt these technologies and increase thwe rigor based on the assumption that the student now is freed up from the drudgery of certain basic exercises to thinki critically about more advanced ideas.

A lovely thought, but only 50 percent accurate, and I don't know math.

The foundational skills are still important and necessary, and a teacher can still craft assessments that demand the exercising of lower order thinking skills. We have instituted a lockdown browser system so timed essays can't use an AI system. I have also spoken to my classes about the limitations of AI and showed them articles and examples which demonstrate what Chat GPT is doing and not doing (as a predictive engine it is not gathering and assembling data or facts, just linguistic strings). Other, search integrated systems can supplement a simple search with the presentation of facts but the algorithms for vetting and arranging are showing many holes, so a student needs a new set of instruction which can teach about the AI systems and their judicious use.

I already mourn the loss of interest in proper spelling (I spent yesterday grading essays written without the benefit of spell check and they were horrible in this regard). Heck, I think that reading a map is an essential skill, but Waze and the like have turned us all into sheep, doing whatever the disembodied voice tells us to do without our knowing where we are going (I bemoan the loss of fear of the unknown also). The world is changing. Students native to the digital world have no idea how to do much on their phones and computers other than blindly download programs and run them. They have access to more and understand less. But if they stand on those automated shoulders, maybe they can reach higher anyway.

 

[Nakosis]

Given that some education authorities might be allowing answers/information provided by this AI app from their students (whether acknowledged or not), is such an advance of a retrograde step as to any education system? Given that any individual might be just gaining information as from elsewhere but also might be passing such off as their own thinking than coming from a brighter mind.

Apologies if brought up before, as I have seen a mention of this before but can't recall the thread(s).

It's the future.

So maybe the new skill set would be to learn how to properly phrase the question to get the most productive answer from AI.

 

[Stevicus]

Given that some education authorities might be allowing answers/information provided by this AI app from their students (whether acknowledged or not), is such an advance of a retrograde step as to any education system? Given that any individual might be just gaining information as from elsewhere but also might be passing such off as their own thinking than coming from a brighter mind.

Apologies if brought up before, as I have seen a mention of this before but can't recall the thread(s).

If this stuff existed back when I was in school, I guess I could have gotten my homework done a lot more quickly and efficiently. Most of what they taught in school was how to pass memory tests. Memorize, regurgitate, then forget it.

 

[sun rise]

we have decided that certain foundational skills are no longer vital.

Such as how to hunt big game using spears and bows&arrows.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I can't roll with the 'it's like calculators' brigade, but perhaps that's just my own bias towards language and writing in general terms. @Stevicus, I'm sorry you were given memory tests, but really, the point of writing a persuasive essay isn't to establish in a student an established and defensible position about whether climate change is real, or intervention in Ukraine is warranted, or whatever.

It's about learning how to structure an argument. I would argue that schools should probably broaden the types of writing, and the methods of argument students are exposed to (I think oral persuasion is woefully underdeveloped in many schools...and man, is 'oral persuasion' a bad choice of phrase...).

Suffice to say the issue here isn't one of students using ChatGPT to gather facts. It's the potential harm this has in enabling students to avoid learning how to structure their arguments, or independently validate and assess source information.

Still, I think it's entirely possible for schools to ensure assessment tasks are completed in school time, and not as homework. And that this would allow assessment of student ability, and better establishment of areas requiring improvement.
What I've seen firsthand in Australia from a lot of primary teachers I know is ignorance of the impact ChatGPT is likely to have. That would seem problematic.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Yes, there are reasons for concern but they can't be placed solely at the feet of GPT.

New technologies have always required the reimagining of the scope and goal of education. Between calculators, wikipedia and spell-check, we have decided that certain foundational skills are no longer vital. The canny teacher, though, has found a way to co-opt these technologies and increase thwe rigor based on the assumption that the student now is freed up from the drudgery of certain basic exercises to thinki critically about more advanced ideas.

A lovely thought, but only 50 percent accurate, and I don't know math.

The foundational skills are still important and necessary, and a teacher can still craft assessments that demand the exercising of lower order thinking skills. We have instituted a lockdown browser system so timed essays can't use an AI system. I have also spoken to my classes about the limitations of AI and showed them articles and examples which demonstrate what Chat GPT is doing and not doing (as a predictive engine it is not gathering and assembling data or facts, just linguistic strings). Other, search integrated systems can supplement a simple search with the presentation of facts but the algorithms for vetting and arranging are showing many holes, so a student needs a new set of instruction which can teach about the AI systems and their judicious use.

I already mourn the loss of interest in proper spelling (I spent yesterday grading essays written without the benefit of spell check and they were horrible in this regard). Heck, I think that reading a map is an essential skill, but Waze and the like have turned us all into sheep, doing whatever the disembodied voice tells us to do without our knowing where we are going (I bemoan the loss of fear of the unknown also). The world is changing. Students native to the digital world have no idea how to do much on their phones and computers other than blindly download programs and run them. They have access to more and understand less. But if they stand on those automated shoulders, maybe they can reach higher anyway.

I'm a little less worried about spelling than you are, but in general we seem to agree. Perhaps it is our education background?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

It's the future.

So maybe the new skill set would be to learn how to properly phrase the question to get the most productive answer from AI.

Have you ever needed to persuade a human of anything?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

It is a fine balance, I remember the outrage when calculators were first allowed in exams. Shock - Horror.
There is plenty of software out there that can spot 'exact copy' and plagiarism; examiners learn to modify questions to explore the children's understanding and application of knowledge.

ChatGPT won't allow you to spot 'exact copy' though. It will give you different answers to the same question. And the answer will further change if I give it more information on the perspective I want it to take. Whilst there are tools to spot ChatGPT answers (eg. GPTZero) that is a little more akin to an arms race in terms of getting ahead of the AI, as opposed to a solution.

I'd give some examples, but it's at capacity right now, and not allowing me to log-in!!

 

[rosends]

Such as how to hunt big game using spears and bows&arrows.

Yes. If we let computers do all the aiming our hand eye coordination skills will degrade as will our fine motor skills. Good point.

 

[Stevicus]

I can't roll with the 'it's like calculators' brigade, but perhaps that's just my own bias towards language and writing in general terms. @Stevicus, I'm sorry you were given memory tests, but really, the point of writing a persuasive essay isn't to establish in a student an established and defensible position about whether climate change is real, or intervention in Ukraine is warranted, or whatever.

It's about learning how to structure an argument. I would argue that schools should probably broaden the types of writing, and the methods of argument students are exposed to (I think oral persuasion is woefully underdeveloped in many schools...and man, is 'oral persuasion' a bad choice of phrase...).

Suffice to say the issue here isn't one of students using ChatGPT to gather facts. It's the potential harm this has in enabling students to avoid learning how to structure their arguments, or independently validate and assess source information.

Still, I think it's entirely possible for schools to ensure assessment tasks are completed in school time, and not as homework. And that this would allow assessment of student ability, and better establishment of areas requiring improvement.
What I've seen firsthand in Australia from a lot of primary teachers I know is ignorance of the impact ChatGPT is likely to have. That would seem problematic.

Maybe AI itself will become smart enough to be able to overcome these issues. Like if a kid is trying to get AI to do their homework for them, then the AI would get wise to them.

GPT: Okay, kid, I know what you're trying to pull, but your teacher @lewisnotmiller said I can only help you, not give you the answers. Back to work, kiddo. Oh, and your mom told me to remind you to brush your teeth and comb your hair!
Kid: Stupid, nagging, GPT.

 

[Quintessence]

It's not going to lead to a "dumbing down of education" but force educators to restructure assignments to combat cheating and plagiarism (yes, using CrapGPT on homework assignments is academic dishonesty and grounds for dismissal from a university). Part of why plagiarism is a no-no in education isn't so much about the "intellectual property" issues but because it runs counter to the goal of education in the first place - to get humans to learn something. If all you do is ape others without putting any of your own actual thinking into it, you've learned nothing beyond "push button, get output." Haven't learned how to structure writing, think critically, analyze content, etc. The real risk is in "dumbing down of humanity" with these plagiarism tools.

 

[Nimos]

Given that some education authorities might be allowing answers/information provided by this AI app from their students (whether acknowledged or not), is such an advance of a retrograde step as to any education system? Given that any individual might be just gaining information as from elsewhere but also might be passing such off as their own thinking than coming from a brighter mind.

Apologies if brought up before, as I have seen a mention of this before but can't recall the thread(s).

I think it is of some concern, obviously, time will tell if it is an issue. But education is just as much learning problem solving, learning how to focus on a task, research and information gathering, checking sources etc. as it is simply learning something by heart in my opinion.

And to me a lot of the process could be gone if you can just ask the AI, then it no longer becomes about learning stuff, but how you can simply make it give you the right answer with pretty much the whole learning process removed.

But more disturbing is how it will affect jobs in the future as I see it, once people really figure out how to get the most out of it and get it integrated into their company.

As I see it the impact of this will be huge it's just a matter of time.

And when robotics gets going as well, we will have to change our way of doing things

 

[sun rise]

Have you ever needed to persuade a human of anything?

Have you ever succeeded in persuading a human being of anything? (usually no )

 

[Vee]

Given that some education authorities might be allowing answers/information provided by this AI app from their students (whether acknowledged or not), is such an advance or a retrograde step as to any education system? Given that any individual might be just gaining information as from elsewhere but also might be passing such off as their own thinking that coming from a brighter mind.

Apologies if brought up before, as I have seen a mention of this before but can't recall the thread(s).

I've played a bit with Chat Gtp and found it great as a time saving tool. I'll be taking advantage as much as I can.
Is AI making people dumber? I don't believe so. People have been ignorant and dumb for a very long time and the school system was already declining in quality when I was in high school.
In my opinion what brought the education system down was the acceptance of low quality instruction, mixed with cutting costs in everything important. Even food is schools is a disgrace. How can anyone expect kids to learn if the system is designed to keep them ignorant?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It is a fine balance, I remember the outrage when calculators were first allowed in exams. Shock - Horror.

In 2014 I had a statistics teacher who STILL clung onto that, to a degree. The first part of the class was no calculator, amd then we only did one day in a computer lab learning the programs that do all this for you.
The other statistics teacher did the whole class on the computer, where students would professionally be doing that anyways (and certainly in today's world not with pencil and paper).
I also detest that mindset because even when I was in elementary schools and calculators strictly prohibited I knew the pros have charts, cheat sheets, and calculators.
There's also the issue with ChatGPT that is has a very formal tone of writing and a style that bring to mind science journals and academic level writing. Add in the plagiarism checkers and I don't really see this as much of a concern.

 

[Nimos]

I've played a bit with Chat Gtp and found it great as a time saving tool. I'll be taking advantage as much as I can.
Is AI making people dumber? I don't believe so. People have been ignorant and dumb for a very long time and the school system was already declining in quality when I was in high school.
In my opinion what brought the education system down was the acceptance of low quality instruction, mixed with cutting costs in everything important. Even food is schools is a disgrace. How can anyone expect kids to learn if the system is designed to keep them ignorant?

It can be good and it can be bad as I see it, but it depends a whole lot on the student.

When I went to school and we had math the teacher always required us to show how we had solved an equation like each step, which meant that we had to demonstrate that we knew what you were doing. But you can get all that now using AI without having any clue what you are doing and it will show you all the steps which you could then just copy-paste as a student, that is obviously the bad side.

The beneficial side is that the AI can also act as a personal assistant teacher for each child So kids that have a rough time with for instance math, can use the AI to get help and ask the "stupid" questions. In Danish schools, it is a huge issue that there are too many kids in a class which means that the teacher has about 1.5 - 2 minutes per student, which means that they don't really get the help they need, but if they can use the AI and ask for help and explanations, it could be a huge benefit.

It would be interesting to see the difference between a class using AI and one without and who gets out on top at the exam My guess is that if the students use it to learn they would come out on top.

 

[Alien826]

If this stuff existed back when I was in school, I guess I could have gotten my homework done a lot more quickly and efficiently. Most of what they taught in school was how to pass memory tests. Memorize, regurgitate, then forget it.

Absolutely. I once wondered how much of what I learned at school contributed to my earning a living, or even managing my life at a practical level. I came up with two subjects, English Language and Arithmetic. Looking back, I would swap five years of Latin for car maintenance.

That's not to say that the other subjects had no value of course. And understanding the subject should be more important than the ability to regurgitate it in exams.

 

[Alien826]

I just asked ChatGPT the question "Explain tensor calculus". I know nothing about it beyond the name. It replied:

Tensor calculus is a branch of mathematics that deals with the study of tensors, which are mathematical objects that generalize scalars, vectors, and matrices to higher dimensions. A tensor is a multi-dimensional array of numbers that transforms in a specific way under coordinate transformations.

Tensor calculus is used in a variety of fields, including physics, engineering, and computer science, to describe and analyze the behavior of physical systems that involve multiple dimensions and variables. For example, in general relativity, tensor calculus is used to describe the curvature of spacetime, which is a four-dimensional manifold. Similarly, in fluid dynamics, tensor calculus is used to describe the behavior of fluids in three dimensions.

In tensor calculus, the basic operations involve tensor products, contractions, and covariant differentiation. These operations allow us to manipulate and transform tensors to understand their properties and relationships to other tensors. Tensor calculus can be a complex subject, but it is essential for advanced studies in fields such as physics, engineering, and computer science.

I still know next to nothing about tensor calculus.

That could probably be used as an answer in an exam though. There's the main problem.