ChatGPT - dumbing down of education?

[lewisnotmiller]

Have you ever succeeded in persuading a human being of anything? (usually no )

Heh, made me chuckle.

But yes...it's a key part of my job. Not things like, hey leftie, these conservatives are cool. Or, hey rightie, these progressives are amazeballs.

I'm often faced with situations at work where complex systems and business issues are presented, and multiple different options are available to rectify. Determine the best possible options, ensuring mitigations are thought through, and that the idiot in the room doesn't set the whole project down a bad path is sometimes something I'm dealing with multiple times per day.

I coach junior basketball, and similarly getting people on board with my planning and approach (both players and parents) is important and takes effort and structure.

We convince people of things all the time.

 

[Revoltingest]

It is a fine balance, I remember the outrage when calculators were first allowed in exams. Shock - Horror.
There is plenty of software out there that can spot 'exact copy' and plagiarism; examiners learn to modify questions to explore the children's understanding and application of knowledge.

I remember when log log slide rules were controversial. Such drama in the 60s !!

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I just asked ChatGPT the question "Explain tensor calculus". I know nothing about it beyond the name. It replied:

Tensor calculus is a branch of mathematics that deals with the study of tensors, which are mathematical objects that generalize scalars, vectors, and matrices to higher dimensions. A tensor is a multi-dimensional array of numbers that transforms in a specific way under coordinate transformations.

Tensor calculus is used in a variety of fields, including physics, engineering, and computer science, to describe and analyze the behavior of physical systems that involve multiple dimensions and variables. For example, in general relativity, tensor calculus is used to describe the curvature of spacetime, which is a four-dimensional manifold. Similarly, in fluid dynamics, tensor calculus is used to describe the behavior of fluids in three dimensions.

In tensor calculus, the basic operations involve tensor products, contractions, and covariant differentiation. These operations allow us to manipulate and transform tensors to understand their properties and relationships to other tensors. Tensor calculus can be a complex subject, but it is essential for advanced studies in fields such as physics, engineering, and computer science.

I still know next to nothing about tensor calculus.

That could probably be used as an answer in an exam though. There's the main problem.

It's even worse, since you could ask subsequent questions to refine results.
Give me some examples of tensor calculus uses in computer science or;
Who are key people in the development and usage of tensor calculus or;
What was used before tensor calculus was invented...

Etc.

 

[sun rise]

Heh, made me chuckle.

But yes...it's a key part of my job. Not things like, get leftie, these conservatives are cool. Or, hey rightie, these progressives are amazeballs.

I'm often faced with situations at work where complex systems and business issues are presented, abs multiple different options are available to rectify. Determine the best possible options, ensuring mitigations are thought through, and that the idiot in the room doesn't set the whole project down a bad path is sometimes something I'm dealing with multiple times per day.

I coach junior basketball, and similarly getting people on board with my planning and approach (both players and parents) is important and takes effort and structure.

We convince people of things all the time.

True. When people don't have rigid emotional investments in things, then convincing people can happen.

 

[Nakosis]

Have you ever needed to persuade a human of anything?

Not often.
I usually let experience do the talking.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Not often.
I usually let experience do the talking.

I plan long term projects. Getting to the end and nodding safely because you suspected it was poorly planned isn't an option.

 

[Nakosis]

I plan long term projects. Getting to the end and nodding safely because you suspected it was poorly planned isn't an option.

Seems to be the only option if you own the company and think you are smarter than everyone else in the room.
You must hang with a different crowd.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Seems to be the only option if you own the company and think you are smarter than everyone else in the room.
You must hang with a different crowd.

Umm...dunno what to tell you.
Some of the projects I've been in run for several years and have professional services costs in 8 figures. I'm paid to come in and provide advice, and sometimes as part of that I need to do more than just say 'do it this way' but actually mount a compelling case for why.

 

[wellwisher]

Given that some education authorities might be allowing answers/information provided by this AI app from their students (whether acknowledged or not), is such an advance or a retrograde step as to any education system? Given that any individual might be just gaining information as from elsewhere but also might be passing such off as their own thinking that coming from a brighter mind.

Apologies if brought up before, as I have seen a mention of this before but can't recall the thread(s).

Picture if someone invented a set of bionic leg braces. You place these on your legs. They are slick, shiny and inexpensive, allowing anyone to run with world class sprinter speed.

This invention would be impressive to your peers, while owning a pair would good for your vanity. But does it strengthen your natural legs or does it just act like a crutch? If we took off the race braces, after a few months of running, to keep up with the Jones, would your natural legs be in better shape or worse; free running, than when you first put on the braces? I would guess worse, since your leg muscles would atrophy, like in a cast, due to lack of deliberate use.

If a computer program, could think for you, your own ability to think will never get any real exercise. The machine, may allow you to pretend to be smart, which can be good for your vanity. But if we had a power outage, the walk of the brain dead will begin. Without the magic hat, the illusion of being smarter will end, and the brain, that never had to do any real brain exercises, will be weaker. People are more informed today than ever due to technology, but global test scores have gone down, due to less natural brain exercise.

If you look at any state of the art home computers, that are not yet considered AI computers, they can memorize data and calculate anything faster than any human. Humans just cannot keep up. But since these are not considered smart computers, these skills are not a prerequisite of being smart, since even a computer that is not considered smart, can then do it better. A $1 calculator can multiple or divide faster than any human with pen and paper, but that calculator is not considered an intelligent device, except in terms of marketing illusion to sell product.

A genuine future smart, intelligent, conscious computer would require different skills, such as self awareness and the ability to exceed its own programing. If you wish to be smarter than any known computer, the above things are the things you need to learn, using your own brain.

The human brain has to many more features, we have yet to develop, but these require you keep exercising the brain, and not let the braces of a dumb computer, appealing to your vanity, fool you into thinking this is the proper exercise for exceeding AI computers. It still takes people to write that code. Your state of the art computer cannot write that code and exceed itself.

 

[Stevicus]

Absolutely. I once wondered how much of what I learned at school contributed to my earning a living, or even managing my life at a practical level. I came up with two subjects, English Language and Arithmetic. Looking back, I would swap five years of Latin for car maintenance.

That's not to say that the other subjects had no value of course. And understanding the subject should be more important than the ability to regurgitate it in exams.

Obviously, the "Three R's" are useful in everyday life, although earning a living might require more specialized skills which public schools are insufficient for teaching. One would have to go to college - or at least some trade or technical school to acquire marketable job skills. But even that can be hit and miss.

 

[Nakosis]

Umm...dunno what to tell you.
Some of the projects I've been in run for several years and have professional services costs in 8 figures. I'm paid to come in and provide advice, and sometimes as part of that I need to do more than just say 'do it this way' but actually mount a compelling case for why.

I understand, just we have had different experiences.
Not sure what this has to do with the OP though.

 

[rosends]

Picture if someone invented a set of bionic leg braces. You place these on your legs. They are slick, shiny and inexpensive, allowing anyone to run with world class sprinter speed.

This invention would be impressive to your peers, while owning a pair would good for your vanity. But does it strengthen your natural legs or does it just act like a crutch? If we took off the race braces, after a few months of running, to keep up with the Jones, would your natural legs be in better shape or worse; free running, than when you first put on the braces? I would guess worse, since your leg muscles would atrophy, like in a cast, due to lack of deliberate use.

If a computer program, could think for you, your own ability to think will never get any real exercise. The machine, may allow you to pretend to be smart, which can be good for your vanity. But if we had a power outage, the walk of the brain dead will begin. Without the magic hat, the illusion of being smarter will end, and the brain, that never had to do any real brain exercises, will be weaker. People are more informed today than ever due to technology, but global test scores have gone down, due to less natural brain exercise.

If you look at any state of the art home computers, that are not yet considered AI computers, they can memorize data and calculate anything faster than any human. Humans just cannot keep up. But since these are not considered smart computers, these skills are not a prerequisite of being smart, since even a computer that is not considered smart, can then do it better. A $1 calculator can multiple or divide faster than any human with pen and paper, but that calculator is not considered an intelligent device, except in terms of marketing illusion to sell product.

A genuine future smart, intelligent, conscious computer would require different skills, such as self awareness and the ability to exceed its own programing. If you wish to be smarter than any known computer, the above things are the things you need to learn, using your own brain.

The human brain has to many more features, we have yet to develop, but these require you keep exercising the brain, and not let the braces of a dumb computer, appealing to your vanity, fool you into thinking this is the proper exercise for exceeding AI computers. It still takes people to write that code. Your state of the art computer cannot write that code and exceed itself.

Well stated -- computers have (at least so far) been limited by GIGO, garbage in, garbage out. You provide bad data, the computer gives bad answers because a computing machine is not a thinking (evaluating, judging) machine. The predictive engines make their sentences by looking at a sample of internet-available written samples. But as the pool of data is impacted by humans who make mistakes, have biases and such, the resultant interactions might reflect that. It is up to us to use our brains to create, synthesize, innovate and then evaluate and maybe scrap it all and start over. A computer can't be happy or sad with its results.

I saw an interaction with a chatbot yesterday which mirrored an experience I had. The user caught the bot in a logical contradiction. The bot apologized but then did the exact same thing again (different words, same problem). It is not "learning" even if it is recording earlier instances.

I recall the final scene of Wargames in which Joshua "learns" about the futility of war. But in fact, he doesn't learn -- he simply plays out every scenario. Someone who learns recognizes the pattern and anticipates future results, and stops mid-exercise to say "clearly this isn't going to work if we are using the same rules every time."

 

[Mock Turtle]

I remember when log log slide rules were controversial. Such drama in the 60s !!

Still got my Aristo TriLog. Presumably it isn't worth a fortune. But better than the log tables we had to use prior to such joys. And I think calculators were still too primitive to be of much use at college - given we had to memorise the formulae in all engineering topics.

 

[Twilight Hue]

It is a fine balance, I remember the outrage when calculators were first allowed in exams. Shock - Horror.
There is plenty of software out there that can spot 'exact copy' and plagiarism; examiners learn to modify questions to explore the children's understanding and application of knowledge.

I think with repetition calculations can eventually be memorized.

It does make me have an appreciation for common core learning. I was against that until a study program I was engaged in to help me out was commented on as being a common core teaching.

Been an advocate ever since.

 

[Revoltingest]

Still got my Aristo TriLog. Presumably it isn't worth a fortune. But better than the log tables we had to use prior to such joys. And I think calculators were still too primitive to be of much use at college - given we had to memorise the formulae in all engineering topics.

When I was in engineering at UofM, every test was
open book. All ya had to do was understand the
material...no memorization.
In some courses, we were graded on homework
that had results posted before it was due. This was
easier for me cuz I hated memorization.

I hear that it's no longer my utopia.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I understand, just we have had different experiences.
Not sure what this has to do with the OP though.

Yeah, sorry. I was typing away on a couple of different things at the same time. You'd need to read my conversation here with sunrise to work out what the context was for my conversation with you. My bad on that.

Basically, I was making a point earlier that writing essays at school (as an example) isn't really about the topic of the essay. At least, not mostly, and not usually. It's mostly about learning how to structure a convincing argument, and evidence your position.
Outsourcing that to ChatGPT would result in you getting a good essay (goodish, anyway) but learning none of the skills you're supposed to be building through the process.

Hence my comment about 'do you ever need to persuade people'. ChatGPT can be a good tool...I'm actually really impressed and interested in it. But it can be a shortcut which is problematic from an education point of view since it gets you to the answer without understanding the process. In that sense, I get why people are suggesting it's like a calculator. However, I think the scope in which we use persuasion is much broader and more ad hoc that the context in which we do reasonably complex calculations.
Even though I can do reasonably complex calculations in my head, I wouldn't do that at work when there is a computer sitting right in front of me, and it's faster, more accurate, and automatically creates a record for me. But persuasion? Sure...I use those skills all the time, written, verbal, formal and informal...

 

[vulcanlogician]

I can't roll with the 'it's like calculators' brigade, but perhaps that's just my own bias towards language and writing in general terms. @Stevicus, I'm sorry you were given memory tests, but really, the point of writing a persuasive essay isn't to establish in a student an established and defensible position about whether climate change is real, or intervention in Ukraine is warranted, or whatever.

It's about learning how to structure an argument.

THIS.

Using ChatGPT to write your papers is worlds different from using calculators to solve math equations.

Imagine somebody getting a degree in English who used ChatGTP to complete their assignments... but they couldn't write a clear paragraph to save their life. Would you want this person landing a job as an english teacher at your child's middle school?

To me, it's incredibly troubling. But I think the genie may be out of the bottle.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

THIS.

Using ChatGPT to write your papers is worlds different from using calculators to solve math equations.

Imagine somebody getting a degree in English who used ChatGTP to complete there assignments... but they couldn't write a clear paragraph to save their life. Would you want this person landing a job as an english teacher at your child's middle school?

To me, it's incredibly troubling. But I think the genie may be out of the bottle.

The genie is out of the bottle, in many ways.
But there are also ways to minimise the harm of it, in an educational sense.
I think it impacts considerably on how we should do testing and assessment. And I think we owe it to the students to be very explicit not only about how we are assessing and testing, but why we are doing it in that way.

The days of 'I need a 800 word essay by next Friday on how the Second Amendment impacts on US culture' may be gone, at least if we are actually trying to do anything constructive with homework.

For comparative, ChatGPT wrote the essay for me in about 10 seconds as follows;

The Second Amendment to the United States Constitution is a widely debated and controversial topic in American culture, impacting various aspects of society, including law, politics, and personal values. The amendment reads, "A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." In this essay, I will discuss the impact of the Second Amendment on US culture.

One way the Second Amendment impacts US culture is through the country's long-standing tradition of gun ownership. Many Americans view the right to bear arms as a fundamental aspect of their freedom and identity. For some, owning a gun is a symbol of self-defense, individual liberty, and even patriotism. The Second Amendment has played a crucial role in shaping gun ownership culture in the US, which has in turn impacted public policy and social norms.

However, the right to bear arms has also led to high levels of gun violence in the US. The country has one of the highest rates of gun-related deaths in the developed world, with thousands of people killed or injured each year. This has led to ongoing debates about gun control and the role of the Second Amendment in regulating access to firearms. Advocates of stricter gun control laws argue that the Second Amendment should be interpreted in a way that allows for reasonable regulations on gun ownership, such as background checks and limits on the types of weapons that can be sold.

Another way the Second Amendment impacts US culture is through its influence on political discourse and activism. Groups on both sides of the gun control debate often use the Second Amendment as a rallying cry for their positions. Pro-gun groups argue that any attempts to regulate or restrict gun ownership is an infringement on their constitutional rights, while anti-gun groups argue that the Second Amendment should not be interpreted as an unlimited right to bear arms. This debate has become a contentious issue in US politics, with many politicians and interest groups taking strong positions on the issue.

The Second Amendment has also had an impact on the legal system in the US. Courts have been called upon to interpret the Second Amendment in cases related to gun ownership and use, and the Supreme Court has issued several landmark rulings on the matter. In 2008, the Court ruled in District of Columbia v. Heller that the Second Amendment protects an individual's right to possess a firearm for self-defense within the home. This ruling was followed by a 2010 decision in McDonald v. City of Chicago, which held that the Second Amendment is incorporated against the states and applies to local governments as well.

Finally, the Second Amendment has had an impact on American popular culture. Guns are often portrayed in movies, television shows, and music as symbols of power, heroism, and rebellion. This has contributed to the romanticization of gun ownership and the glorification of violence in US culture. However, there is also a growing movement in popular culture that seeks to challenge these stereotypes and promote responsible gun ownership and use.

In conclusion, the Second Amendment has had a significant impact on US culture in various ways. While the right to bear arms has long been viewed as a fundamental aspect of American freedom and identity, it has also led to high levels of gun violence and ongoing debates about gun control. The Second Amendment has played a role in shaping political discourse and activism, legal decisions, and popular culture, and will continue to be a divisive issue in American society for the foreseeable future.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Same question, but added that I was Australian...

As an AI language model, I do not have a perspective or cultural identity. However, I can provide an objective analysis of how the Second Amendment impacts US culture from an Australian perspective.

From an Australian perspective, the Second Amendment has a significant impact on US culture and is often a source of confusion and concern. In Australia, gun ownership is heavily regulated, and the country has one of the lowest rates of gun-related deaths in the developed world. The Australian government responded to the 1996 Port Arthur massacre by introducing strict gun control laws, which has largely been successful in reducing gun violence.

In contrast, the US has a strong tradition of gun ownership, which is protected by the Second Amendment. The country has one of the highest rates of gun-related deaths in the developed world, and the Second Amendment has often been cited as a barrier to implementing effective gun control measures.

Many Australians view the Second Amendment as a fundamental aspect of American culture, but also as a source of ongoing tragedy and preventable deaths. From an Australian perspective, the right to bear arms is seen as a privilege rather than a right, and is often subject to strict regulation.

The Second Amendment's impact on US culture has also been a source of confusion and concern for Australians. The amendment's language is often interpreted in different ways, with some arguing that it only protects the right to bear arms in the context of a "well-regulated militia," while others argue that it provides an individual right to gun ownership. This ambiguity has made it difficult to implement effective gun control measures in the US, as well as contributing to ongoing debates about the interpretation of the Second Amendment.

The Second Amendment has also impacted US culture through its influence on popular culture and media. From an Australian perspective, the glorification of gun violence in American movies, television shows, and music is a cause for concern. This contributes to a perception that gun ownership is synonymous with power and masculinity, which can lead to a dangerous and irresponsible approach to gun ownership.

Finally, the Second Amendment has an impact on international relations and perceptions of the US. From an Australian perspective, the US's lack of effective gun control measures and high rates of gun violence are often seen as an anomaly among developed countries. This perception can contribute to a negative view of the US among countries with strict gun control laws, and can make it difficult for the US to engage in constructive dialogue on issues related to international security and human rights.

In conclusion, the Second Amendment has a significant impact on US culture, and from an Australian perspective, is often a source of confusion, concern, and frustration. The US's high rates of gun violence and lack of effective gun control measures are viewed as a preventable tragedy, and the glorification of gun violence in American popular culture is seen as a contributing factor. The Second Amendment's impact on international relations is also a concern, and can make it difficult for the US to engage in constructive dialogue on issues related to global security and human rights.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

When I was in engineering at UofM, every test was
open book. All ya had to do was understand the
material...no memorization.

I generally favoured these type of approaches when I was a teacher, but had to balance it against the need for my students to be able to handle other tests (standardised, entrance exams, etc) which would not be open book. So I did a little bit of the closed book thing, just to teach them how to do closed-book exams. Frustrating at times.