Cannabis and violence, mass killings

[Ouroboros]

Another interesting link, all of these mass killers have been known to inhale large amounts of nitrogen. Now, sure the majority of the users are harmless, but you can't deny that some do become psychotic killing machines.

Also, they have consumed large amounts of oxygen and even H2O in their lifetime, which shows how dangerous those drugs are as well...

 

[dust1n]

I think the term "gateway drug" is pretty much a "slippery-slope fallacy" argument. We could just as well argue that tobacco is a gateway drug to cannabis. Candy is a gateway drug to tobacco. And a pacifier is a gateway tool to candy. Also, coffee is a gateway drug to alcohol. Soda is a gateway drug to coffee. And baby formula is a gateway drug to soda. In other words, just being born and having to put anything in our mouth is enough to be a gateway to overdosing on some heavy drug... slippery-slope fallacy, in other words.

Sobriety is a gateway drug to your first drug.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Living here in the USA I would bet that around here meth could be much more closely correlated to murder rates.

Coming from the same meth-headed state, I wouldn't doubt it. Maybe not in a state like Washington or Maine, but Indiana it would not surprise me at all.

 

[Ouroboros]

Sobriety is a gateway drug to your first drug.

LOL!. Yup.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Sobriety is a gateway drug to your first drug.

In my experience, it was hard rock and heavy metal, which lead to a hard rock concert, which lead to "you wanna try this," which lead to many hours of Black Sabbath, Led Zeppelin, and Pink Floyd.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Instead of being a cause of violence, it's also possible that pot mitigates the negative behaviors. Thus, those who use pot and commit violent acts may have, if not for the pot, committed their violent acts sooner, or been much more prolific in their killing than if they had abstained from its use. In fact, the use of pot may have prevented earlier detection of their socio and psycho pathic tendencies.

There is also a rather widely held theory among criminal justice types that many individuals who use alcohol and drugs are self-medicating with what is available to them to deal with their social or psychological issues. This self-medication may or may not improve their behavior in fact.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

There seems to be a disturbing correlation in many of the recent mass killings and irrational acts of violence we have had. Many seem to be heavy cannabis users.

Word is they all drank water too. Clearly, water causes irrational acts of horrific violence.

 

[Yerda]

I would like to re-iterate, I am not claiming that cannabis causes mass violence, I do not have enough evidence for such a claim, but am pointing out there is a disturbing correlation and would like a proper inquiry into it to investigate.

Are there any studies available on the subject of incidence of drug use and violent behaviour?

What do you mean by a proper inquiry?

 

[Yerda]

I did have that one night that I smoked a few with friends. We stole several cars and started running pedestrians down, laughing at their screams and attempts to get to safety. When the law came I shot three of them dead right off but this only resulted in a police chopper chasing me. I used a rocket launcher to take out the chopper but I was brutally gunned down seconds later while trying to escape an efficient swat team. I lost all of my guns and some of my money. That taught me not to smoke the waccy baccy. Best to keep a clear head when going on a murderous rampage.

 

[Dhyana]

Colorado produced some significant mass killings pre legal marijuana. Where is the epidemic your hypothesis would predict? Same with Washington State. AFAIK, crime is down overall in Colorado, not sure about Washington

I think there's a bigger correlation between paranoid people and bad legislation (making plants illegal) than between cannabis and violence.

 

[Ouroboros]

Word is they all drank water too. Clearly, water causes irrational acts of horrific violence.

They were also born once, which shows how terrible psychological effects birth has on people.

 

[freethinker44]

They were also born once, which shows how terrible psychological effects birth has on people.

Oh my GOD! We've been so wrong all along. It's the vaginas. It always has been. Vaginas produce psychotic killers, not drugs!

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

They were also born once, which shows how terrible psychological effects birth has on people.

Yes. This is why sex before, during, or after marriage is immoral. It can lead to unwanted family members, headaches, drug addiction, and serial killers. Studies have shown that all or almost all of the worlds despots, murderers, serial killers, and crime lords were born as a result of sex. Abstinence, heterosexual sexual congress that cannot possibly lead to offspring, or homosexuality: the moral choices (do your part).

 

[Shadow Wolf]

They were also born once, which shows how terrible psychological effects birth has on people.

Well, birth is the number one cause of death. It's such a stressful and ultimately doomed thing. No wonder people get stressed.

 

[philbo]

I did have that one night that I smoked a few with friends. We stole several cars and started running pedestrians down, laughing at their screams and attempts to get to safety. When the law came I shot three of them dead right off but this only resulted in a police chopper chasing me. I used a rocket launcher to take out the chopper but I was brutally gunned down seconds later while trying to escape an efficient swat team. I lost all of my guns and some of my money. That taught me not to smoke the waccy baccy. Best to keep a clear head when going on a murderous rampage.

I did on one occasion have to go out after smoking pot (we're talking nearly 30 years ago now), I can't remember exactly what the necessity was, but can still remember the feeling of screaming down the road at high speed on the motorbike, but the speedo was only showing about 20mph

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Word is they all drank water too. Clearly, water causes irrational acts of horrific violence.

They were also born once, which shows how terrible psychological effects birth has on people.

Oh my GOD! We've been so wrong all along. It's the vaginas. It always has been. Vaginas produce psychotic killers, not drugs!

I did enjoy the cheeky misrepresentation of my position, for humour's sake. Of course there is a glaring flaw in the comparisons you have made.

Water, births and vaginas are not mind-altering drugs (although many would argue the latter is). Cannabis is correlated with mental health disorders and is known to make them worse, and have multiple negative effects on a heavy user's mental health.

Individuals who have displayed psychotic, irrational acts of violence, sharing a common factor in heavy use of cannabis, a mind-altering drug, cannot be so easily discarded as comparing it to them drinking water or other ordinary activities. Such a sarcastic dismissal of such a correlation reminds me of Big Tobacco dismissing the correlation between cigarettes and lung cancer, this was before cigarettes were determined to have been the cause. The age-old mantra of "correlation is not causation" was used, but thankfully it was not used to suppress further investigation that revealed cigarettes were indeed causative. I am asking for further investigation, a proper government-led inquiry into the matter.

Also, I'd like to point out that I had to mention twice in my original post that I was not claiming cannabis had caused these acts of violence. I would have hoped seasoned members of this forum knew how to argue properly by now and not attack strawmen. Of course, inevitably my position was misrepresented to mean something different and become easier to attack and parody. I was pointing out there appeared to be a correlation, and a correlation that ought to be investigated further.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

A study a few years ago showed that those with mental disorders are more likely to use cannabis, though the cannabis use itself does not cause the disorders.

http://www.camh.ca/en/hospital/abou...ness-associated-with-heavy-cannabis-use-.aspx
April 2, 2013 - People with mental illnesses are more than seven times more likely to use cannabis weekly compared to people without a mental illness, according to researchers from the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health (CAMH) who studied U.S. data.
Based on the number of individuals reporting weekly use, we see that people with mental illness use cannabis at high rates.
Researchers also found that individuals with mental illness were 10 times more likely to have a cannabis use disorder.

Is the study you're talking about in the first quote the one you have linked to in the second?

If so, where does the study say cannabis use itself did not cause the disorders? They found a correlation, but what evidence did they find it did not cause the disorders, does it even make that claim?

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Are there any studies available on the subject of incidence of drug use and violent behaviour?

What do you mean by a proper inquiry?

A proper inquiry being one led by an independent commission, called by government, digging out all the public records of irrational and psychotic incidents of violence, hospital records etc. the correlation that may exist with cannabis usage, etc. A team of experts in the relevant fields to analyse this information, to see how far this correlation may go. The only incidents the public have access to are those which have made front page news, and in the majority of those cases they are cannabis users, and the rest of the cases we simply don't know if they were heavy users or not.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Cannabis is correlated with mental health disorders

1) Mental disorders are defined as discrete diseases with distinct etiologies. By definition, the correlation between any substance use and any mental health disorder that isn't a substance use disorder is spurious.
2) Drinking water is highly correlated with mental disorders. It's useless as a predictor of mental disorders. So is cannabis.
3) Large numbers of psychotropic medications are far, far more devastating to cognitive functioning than cannabis (ever seen the "thorazine shuffle" or the results of years of being on drugs for ADD/ADHD like methamphetamine salts, or the addiction and loss of cognitive function associated with the class of anti-anxiety medication called benzodiazepines, or the studies on the effects of powerful antipsychotics, mood stabilizers, and even antidepressants on the brain?).

and is known to make them worse

Actually there are studies indicating that it is useful as a medication for mental health issues. Currently, such studies have nothing on the newest legalization of recreational drugs within psychiatry: Special K (ketamine). This horse tranquilizer and long-used recreational dissociative is now medicinal, approved by the FDA for depression and also as an analgesic.

Individuals who have displayed psychotic, irrational acts of violence, sharing a common factor in heavy use of cannabis, a mind-altering drug, cannot be so easily discarded as comparing it to them drinking water or other ordinary activities.

No, but ignorant individuals who haven't the foggiest idea about clinical psychology, psychiatry, neurology, or the neurosciences any more than they do the effects of both legal and illegal drugs on cognitive and brain functioning can be dismissed and easily discarded. Alcohol and many widely used psychotropic medications are legal and easily far more devastating in the known and possible ways in which they effect the brain.

The age-old mantra of "correlation is not causation" was used

...but it turned out predictive models and the testability of the carcinogenic effects of smoking rendered these arguments eventually meaningless. You haven't provided anything better than the tobacco industry (not as much, actually).

Also, I'd like to point out that I had to mention twice in my original post that I was not claiming cannabis had caused these acts of violence.

What you didn't point out is anything remotely resembling a good reason to take your assertions seriously.

 

[Yerda]

A proper inquiry being one led by an independent commission, called by government, digging out all the public records of irrational and psychotic incidents of violence, hospital records etc. the correlation that may exist with cannabis usage, etc.

I think a study would be a better starting place if you want to establish a correlation.