Cannabis and violence, mass killings

[Sultan Of Swing]

You'd have a point if marijuana use has increased by a serious magnitude since it has been made legal or the laws have simply been unenforced.But it hasn't. Cannabis use has remained more or less consistent since the laws have changed.

That happened around 40 years ago in the UK. Were statistics about cannabis use even being kept back then? Could you provide a source, maybe for the US which is showing this is the case?

However, let's list some other countries with similar legalization, decriminalization, or unenforced;

Netherlands
Belgium
Spain
Portugal
Germany
Austria
Romania
Estonia
Denmark
Moldova
Italy
Croatia
Slovenia
Russia
Switzerland
Czech Republic
Albania
Luxembourg

Hmmm..

No spikes in violent crimes in those countries..

In Denmark, the Copenhagen shooter Omar El-Hussein had been arrested twice for cannabis possession. Nordine Amrani, a mass killer in Belgium, had 2800 cannabis plants found in his flat. Anders Breivik, the mass killer in Norway was also on mind-altering drugs, though from as far as we know it wasn't cannabis but some other potent concoction. I haven't got expansive knowledge of the crime in all of those European countries that you have listed, though there are numerous examples in the UK, and I don't see what makes the UK different from the rest of Europe other than people have gone out of their way to investigate the links in this country.

If there was a proper inquiry, irrational violence and mass killings in all of Europe could be thoroughly investigated, hospital records opened, etc. Insufficient evidence in European countries does not mean the correlation does not exist, since it quite simply hasn't been investigated, and especially since there does appear to be a correlation in the UK after it had been modestly investigated by a handful of people.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

I believe you can find more instances of people without mental illnesses attacking others when they are drunk than you can people with mental illnesses attacking others when they are stoned. About the only thing you're going to "attack" when you're stoned is a bag of corn chips.

The classic chilled out stoner stereotype is popular, though there appear to be many negative effects of using cannabis, and if they can already cause mental health problems, how do you explain the correlation between mass killings and cannabis? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-term_effects_of_cannabis#Mental_health

 

[Koldo]

Such as?

Heavily taxing alcoholic beverages, harsher punishments for adults giving/selling those drinks to teenagers and children, turn excessive consumption into a crime, harsher ( criminal ) penalties for driving under the influence of alcohol...

In essence, make it a major hassle to consume alcohol.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Heavily taxing alcoholic beverages, harsher punishments for adults giving/selling those drinks to teenagers and children, turn excessive consumption into a crime, harsher ( criminal ) penalties for driving under the influence of alcohol...

In essence, make it a major hassle to consume alcohol.

So if those measures were put in place, you'd support stricter laws on cannabis as well, considering the mental health effects, not to mention cannabis while driving is also very dangerous, and the correlation that I said needs to be investigated in the original post?

 

[BSM1]

The classic chilled out stoner stereotype is popular, though there appear to be many negative effects of using cannabis, and if they can already cause mental health problems, how do you explain the correlation between mass killings and cannabis? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-term_effects_of_cannabis#Mental_health

It seems that the article is pointing out that the mass killing types were psychos to begin with. Just think how much more violent they would have been if they hadn't fired up a doobie or two.

 

[Thief]

I don't understand this term "war on drugs". People who are arrested for cannabis possession don't get convicted, don't get put in prison, don't get punished. There is no effective deterrent by doing this. I don't see much of a war.

Where I live....our jails are filled with users.
The state is finally moving toward legal use for medicinal.

The war is there.....just watch for the documentaries.

and yes, there is no effective deterrent.

 

[Koldo]

So if those measures were put in place, you'd support stricter laws on cannabis as well, considering the mental health effects, not to mention cannabis while driving is also very dangerous?

It would depend on how much money would have to be spent on them.
How many deaths do you expect to prevent with those stricter laws ?

 

[Thief]

Heavily taxing alcoholic beverages, harsher punishments for adults giving/selling those drinks to teenagers and children, turn excessive consumption into a crime, harsher ( criminal ) penalties for driving under the influence of alcohol...

In essence, make it a major hassle to consume alcohol.

This was done in the States at the turn of the previous century.
THAT turned into a BLOODY war.
Thirteen years into it.....the gov gave up.

Heavy taxation of alcohol became immediate.
a gallon of white lightning sold for a dollar illegally.
after prohibition ended....$4 per gallon.
Uncle Sam simply became the biggest 'shine' dealer by putting the organized bootleggers out of business.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

It would depend on how much money would have to be spent on them.
How many deaths do you expect to prevent with those stricter laws

Well in the UK the laws already exist, they just aren't enforced, and not only potential deaths but hundreds of families that are wrecked by cannabis abusing children who they then have to look after, users who ended up with mental health problems etc.

 

[dust1n]

http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co...sian-killer-was-on-cannabis-too-so-what-.html

http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2015/06/what-are-you-afraid-of-.html

There seems to be a disturbing correlation in many of the recent mass killings and irrational acts of violence we have had. Many seem to be heavy cannabis users. People are immediately dismissive of such a notion, cannabis users are harmless stoners, but sure, that's the majority. Could you entertain the possibility that a minority of heavy users are psychiatrically affected by the drug, and prone to irrational acts of violence?.

Sure I can entertain it. But I find it annoying the entire article applies a correlation between weed use and killing without actually using statistics at all, or compiling any numbers or data. They just provided 5/6 isolated examples, with no actual statistical analysis. The correlation they imply is fictional until that actually show a correlative relationship with statistics. But, sure I'd entertain it. Wouldn't mean much though.

 

[Koldo]

This was done in the States at the turn of the previous century.
THAT turned into a BLOODY war.
Thirteen years into it.....the gov gave up.

Heavy taxation of alcohol became immediate.
a gallon of white lightning sold for a dollar illegally.
after prohibition ended....$4 per gallon.
Uncle Sam simply became the biggest 'shine' dealer by putting the organized bootleggers out of business.

Thirteen years ? Wasn't that for the outright ban ?

 

[Koldo]

Well in the UK the laws already exist, they just aren't enforced, and not only potential deaths but hundreds of families that are wrecked by cannabis abusing children who they then have to look after, users who ended up with mental health problems etc.

But how many deaths would the enforcement of those laws prevent ?
What is the current death rate associated with cannabis use/abuse in the UK, and how much would it cost to enforce those laws?

 

[Thief]

Thirteen years ? Wasn't that for the outright ban ?

State by state, the ban came on from 1850 forward.
It took more than half a century for the gov make it a federal issue.
The outright ban started a drug (alcohol) war.

The cost was bloody.

 

[Koldo]

State by state, the ban came on from 1850 forward.
It took more than half a century for the gov make it a federal issue.
The outright ban started a drug (alcohol) war.

The cost was bloody.

And what were the taxes used back then before the complete ban ?

 

[Thief]

And what were the taxes used back then before the complete ban ?

before the ban?
I was under the impression taxation became the accepted remedy
not that taxation took away alcohol....just made it more expensive.

In a manner of speaking.....money became the target.
The organized bootleggers were getting rich....
and the illegal alcohol was not pure.....very dangerous.

Uncle Sam made it safer to drink and started making money.

before the ban?.....I think there was little taxation (compared to now)

 

[Koldo]

before the ban?
I was under the impression taxation became the accepted remedy
not that taxation took away alcohol....just made it more expensive.

In a manner of speaking.....money became the target.
The organized bootleggers were getting rich....
and the illegal alcohol was not pure.....very dangerous.

Uncle Sam made it safer to drink and started making money.

before the ban?.....I think there was little taxation (compared to now)

Oh okay. I misunderstood you.
In any case, I still think that alcoholic beverages are way too cheap considering the harm their use and abuse brings.

 

[Thief]

Oh okay. I misunderstood you.
In any case, I still think that alcoholic beverages are way too cheap considering the harm their use and abuse brings.

so maybe a joint a day takes the hangover away?
not that I advocate more drugs....

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I don't understand this term "war on drugs". People who are arrested for cannabis possession don't get convicted, don't get put in prison, don't get punished. There is no effective deterrent by doing this. I don't see much of a war.

In America, the "war on drugs" is a political movement that increased enforcement of drug laws, made drug penalties more severe, made it so there are big kudos to those making drug busts, flooded society with fallacious anti-drug propaganda, and has even made it so a felony drug bust - even for nothing more possession - will prevent you from receiving any federal aid even though violent crimes, such as rape, will not bar someone from federal aid. The "war on drugs" is the reason America has such a high rate of people in prison. And while they say your brain on drugs is like an egg being fried, they never never imply things like your liver on alcohol abuse is like a sack of fruit in a plastic bag that was left out in the heat to rot and decay. Really the only thing it has succeeded in is filling jails and prisons with non-violent offenders who would be better off having to go to rehab.

How would you explain the correlation between mass killings and cannabis use?

There really isn't one. And, as I posted earlier, those with mental illnesses are more likely to use marijuana, and those who commit mass killings sometimes (but not always) do display signs of mental instability.

I'll rephrase: "Alcohol is already legal, therefore we should allow more of these dangerous drugs to be legal?"

When you look at the statistics, nothing is more dangerous and deadly than tobacco, alcohol is second. Excluding tobacco, alcohol kills more people than all prescription, OTC, and illegal drugs combined. Certain prescription drugs, such as opium-based narcotics, pose a major risk, especially when they are prescribed to people who have little-to-no knowledge and/or experience with drugs, but there aren't many people who actively speak out against the dangers they pose. But people do lash out against pot, even though water, via hyperhydration, has killed more people than pot.

You'd have a point if marijuana use has increased by a serious magnitude since it has been made legal or the laws have simply been unenforced. But it hasn't. Cannabis use has remained more or less consistent since the laws have changed. However, let's list some other countries with similar legalization, decriminalization, or unenforced;

Actually, in Portugal drug use has declined since they decriminalized. And a recent study, conducted in Washington I think, has shown that the number of teens using pot since legalization has decreased. As far as I can tell, if your goal is to decrease drug use, your best option is to legalize.

Alcohol is the worst for violence, and most people use weed with little or no ill effect, and often benefit from it, but it clearly causes significant problems in some people.

Lot's of things cause adverse effects in some people. Anti-depressants, for example, will make some people even more depressed and even suicidal. Some people had bad reactions to alcohol. Some people even get motion sickness in a car. But we are talking about general usage.

 

[Nietzsche]

When are we going to ban alcoholic beverages ?

You better not. I'm on heavy doses of morphine and oxycontin, and despite that I can barely tolerate this planet and its people as-is. Just, no. No.

 

[leibowde84]

http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co...sian-killer-was-on-cannabis-too-so-what-.html

http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2015/06/what-are-you-afraid-of-.html

There seems to be a disturbing correlation in many of the recent mass killings and irrational acts of violence we have had. Many seem to be heavy cannabis users. People are immediately dismissive of such a notion, cannabis users are harmless stoners, but sure, that's the majority. Could you entertain the possibility that a minority of heavy users are psychiatrically affected by the drug, and prone to irrational acts of violence?

From the article I've posted above:
"the culprits of the 2011 Tucson massacre,at which Congreswoman Gabrielle Giffords was terribly wounded and six people died, the culprits of the beheading of Jennifer Mills Westley in Tenerife, of the beheading of Mrs Palmira Silva in London, of the grotesque murder of Lee Rigby in Woolwich, of the Charlie Hebdo and related killings in Paris, of the killings of two Canadian soldiers in the past year, of the bludgeoning to death of Sheffield church organist Alan Greaves, not to mention a large number of other notably violent and deranged, irrational crimes ( see: http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2011/07/high-and-violent.html ) have all been revealed to be cannabis users. Now this killer [the Tunisian shooter] has been revealed to be a cannabis user too."

As the writer of this article also says, I am not personally claiming that cannabis is causing these acts of violence. However, it is a disturbing correlation, and surely, as the writer is calling for, some sort of inquiry should be had into what exactly is going on?

I urge people to read the articles and research the matter (the above listed events are not the only ones where the perpetrators were cannabis users, there are many more, and many which we simply don't have access to records to know if they did or not. Another example would by Dylan Roof, the Charleston church shooter, who was also a heavy cannabis user). I hope people will not immediately jump to emotional conclusions, dismissing it as false. I would like to re-iterate, I am not claiming that cannabis causes mass violence, I do not have enough evidence for such a claim, but am pointing out there is a disturbing correlation and would like a proper inquiry into it to investigate.

I feel like the more reasonable response to this "correlation" is the FACT that a ridiculously large number of people use cannabis. Also, alcohol has a much higher correlation to violence than cannabis has ever been shown to. So, why the emphasis on cannabis rather than alcohol?