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Cannabis and violence, mass killings

Sultan Of Swing

Well-Known Member
http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co...sian-killer-was-on-cannabis-too-so-what-.html

http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2015/06/what-are-you-afraid-of-.html

There seems to be a disturbing correlation in many of the recent mass killings and irrational acts of violence we have had. Many seem to be heavy cannabis users. People are immediately dismissive of such a notion, cannabis users are harmless stoners, but sure, that's the majority. Could you entertain the possibility that a minority of heavy users are psychiatrically affected by the drug, and prone to irrational acts of violence?

From the article I've posted above:
"the culprits of the 2011 Tucson massacre,at which Congreswoman Gabrielle Giffords was terribly wounded and six people died, the culprits of the beheading of Jennifer Mills Westley in Tenerife, of the beheading of Mrs Palmira Silva in London, of the grotesque murder of Lee Rigby in Woolwich, of the Charlie Hebdo and related killings in Paris, of the killings of two Canadian soldiers in the past year, of the bludgeoning to death of Sheffield church organist Alan Greaves, not to mention a large number of other notably violent and deranged, irrational crimes ( see: http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2011/07/high-and-violent.html ) have all been revealed to be cannabis users. Now this killer [the Tunisian shooter] has been revealed to be a cannabis user too."

As the writer of this article also says, I am not personally claiming that cannabis is causing these acts of violence. However, it is a disturbing correlation, and surely, as the writer is calling for, some sort of inquiry should be had into what exactly is going on?

I urge people to read the articles and research the matter (the above listed events are not the only ones where the perpetrators were cannabis users, there are many more, and many which we simply don't have access to records to know if they did or not. Another example would by Dylan Roof, the Charleston church shooter, who was also a heavy cannabis user). I hope people will not immediately jump to emotional conclusions, dismissing it as false. I would like to re-iterate, I am not claiming that cannabis causes mass violence, I do not have enough evidence for such a claim, but am pointing out there is a disturbing correlation and would like a proper inquiry into it to investigate.
 
Cannabis can lead to psychosis in certain individuals, the stronger stuff available now can cause greater problems than the less potent varieties of the past. This is a fact.

Having said that, correlation isn't causation. Many Western Jihadis, for example, come from a street culture where cannabis use is common. People who turn into killers are also more likely to be people with personalities that tend towards drug use, that drug use is a symptom rather than a cause.

It is very difficult to isolate individual factors as specific causes rather than simple correlations though and attempts to do so are often facile and anecdotal rather than rigorous and scientific.
 

Sultan Of Swing

Well-Known Member
Cannabis can lead to psychosis in certain individuals, the stronger stuff available now can cause greater problems than the less potent varieties of the past. This is a fact.

Having said that, correlation isn't causation. Many Western Jihadis, for example, come from a street culture where cannabis use is common. People who turn into killers are also more likely to be people with personalities that tend towards drug use, that drug use is a symptom rather than a cause.

It is very difficult to isolate individual factors as specific causes rather than simple correlations though and attempts to do so are often facile and anecdotal rather than rigorous and scientific.
I agree with a lot of what you have said, which is why I believe there should be a proper government-ordered independent inquiry into the matter that would hopefully shed more light on the area. Correlation is not causation, you're right, but of course also correlation is not necessarily not causation. Correct me if I'm wrong, but white supremacists were in plenty 100 years ago, but to my knowledge they didn't have these lone wolf attacks where they shoot up churches. It is deranged, irrational behaviour, and the only thing that appears to have changed between then and now is the huge increase in cannabis use by these killers.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Could you entertain the possibility that a minority of heavy users are psychiatrically affected by the drug, and prone to irrational acts of violence?
A study a few years ago showed that those with mental disorders are more likely to use cannabis, though the cannabis use itself does not cause the disorders.
the stronger stuff available now can cause greater problems than the less potent varieties of the past. This is a fact.
No, it's not. If anything, the stronger types are better because you use less.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
so has anyone seen Reefer Madness.

In recent years it was often played on a popular tv station......as entertainment!

When it was filmed it was an anti marijuana propaganda film.
The US gov wanted to scare people away from it.
There is no actual control and without control....you cannot tax it.

The film is now considered ridiculous.
It is now a display of how far disinformation will be used to affect your life.

I really don't believe cannabis draws violence out of anyone by it's chemistry.

Harmful people just are....harmful.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co...sian-killer-was-on-cannabis-too-so-what-.html

http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2015/06/what-are-you-afraid-of-.html

There seems to be a disturbing correlation in many of the recent mass killings and irrational acts of violence we have had. Many seem to be heavy cannabis users. People are immediately dismissive of such a notion, cannabis users are harmless stoners, but sure, that's the majority. Could you entertain the possibility that a minority of heavy users are psychiatrically affected by the drug, and prone to irrational acts of violence?

From the article I've posted above:
"the culprits of the 2011 Tucson massacre,at which Congreswoman Gabrielle Giffords was terribly wounded and six people died, the culprits of the beheading of Jennifer Mills Westley in Tenerife, of the beheading of Mrs Palmira Silva in London, of the grotesque murder of Lee Rigby in Woolwich, of the Charlie Hebdo and related killings in Paris, of the killings of two Canadian soldiers in the past year, of the bludgeoning to death of Sheffield church organist Alan Greaves, not to mention a large number of other notably violent and deranged, irrational crimes ( see: http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2011/07/high-and-violent.html ) have all been revealed to be cannabis users. Now this killer [the Tunisian shooter] has been revealed to be a cannabis user too."

As the writer of this article also says, I am not personally claiming that cannabis is causing these acts of violence. However, it is a disturbing correlation, and surely, as the writer is calling for, some sort of inquiry should be had into what exactly is going on?

I urge people to read the articles and research the matter (the above listed events are not the only ones where the perpetrators were cannabis users, there are many more, and many which we simply don't have access to records to know if they did or not. Another example would by Dylan Roof, the Charleston church shooter, who was also a heavy cannabis user). I hope people will not immediately jump to emotional conclusions, dismissing it as false. I would like to re-iterate, I am not claiming that cannabis causes mass violence, I do not have enough evidence for such a claim, but am pointing out there is a disturbing correlation and would like a proper inquiry into it to investigate.

When are we going to ban alcoholic beverages ?
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
http://www.camh.ca/en/hospital/abou...ness-associated-with-heavy-cannabis-use-.aspx
April 2, 2013 - People with mental illnesses are more than seven times more likely to use cannabis weekly compared to people without a mental illness, according to researchers from the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health (CAMH) who studied U.S. data.
Based on the number of individuals reporting weekly use, we see that people with mental illness use cannabis at high rates.
Researchers also found that individuals with mental illness were 10 times more likely to have a cannabis use disorder.
It is deranged, irrational behaviour, and the only thing that appears to have changed between then and now is the huge increase in cannabis use by these killers.
Before the 1920s/30s, no one cared and it wasn't illegal, so they wouldn't have kept records like that back then like they do now while the "war on drugs" is going on.
 

Sultan Of Swing

Well-Known Member
When are we going to ban alcoholic beverages ?
This is a common, though strange, objection. Alcohol is already legal, therefore we should allow more dangerous drugs to be legal? If alcohol was illegal right now, and was not used by the vast majority of the populace, I would oppose its legalisation. However, it is already a widely used drug and restricting it would be extremely difficult, near impossible. Cannabis is a substance that is still illegal (at least in the UK), and the laws already exist, they just aren't being enforced.
 

Sultan Of Swing

Well-Known Member
http://www.camh.ca/en/hospital/abou...ness-associated-with-heavy-cannabis-use-.aspx
April 2, 2013 - People with mental illnesses are more than seven times more likely to use cannabis weekly compared to people without a mental illness, according to researchers from the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health (CAMH) who studied U.S. data.
Based on the number of individuals reporting weekly use, we see that people with mental illness use cannabis at high rates.
Researchers also found that individuals with mental illness were 10 times more likely to have a cannabis use disorder.

Before the 1920s/30s, no one cared and it wasn't illegal, so they wouldn't have kept records like that back then like they do now while the "war on drugs" is going on.
I don't understand this term "war on drugs". People who are arrested for cannabis possession don't get convicted, don't get put in prison, don't get punished. There is no effective deterrent by doing this. I don't see much of a war.
 

Sultan Of Swing

Well-Known Member
so has anyone seen Reefer Madness.

In recent years it was often played on a popular tv station......as entertainment!

When it was filmed it was an anti marijuana propaganda film.
The US gov wanted to scare people away from it.
There is no actual control and without control....you cannot tax it.

The film is now considered ridiculous.
It is now a display of how far disinformation will be used to affect your life.

I really don't believe cannabis draws violence out of anyone by it's chemistry.

Harmful people just are....harmful.
How would you explain the correlation between mass killings and cannabis use?
 

jonathan180iq

Well-Known Member
so has anyone seen Reefer Madness.

In recent years it was often played on a popular tv station......as entertainment!

When it was filmed it was an anti marijuana propaganda film.
The US gov wanted to scare people away from it.
There is no actual control and without control....you cannot tax it.

The film is now considered ridiculous.
It is now a display of how far disinformation will be used to affect your life.

I really don't believe cannabis draws violence out of anyone by it's chemistry.

Harmful people just are....harmful.
I think this is the first time I have openly agreed with something you have written.

obama-beer-1.jpg
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
This is a common, though strange, objection. Alcohol is already legal, therefore we should allow more dangerous drugs to be legal? If alcohol was illegal right now, and was not used by the vast majority of the populace, I would oppose its legalisation. However, it is already a widely used drug and restricting it would be extremely difficult, near impossible. Cannabis is a substance that is still illegal (at least in the UK), and the laws already exist, they just aren't being enforced.

More dangerous drugs ? Cannabis is more dangerous ? Please tell me your source.
 

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
I agree with a lot of what you have said, which is why I believe there should be a proper government-ordered independent inquiry into the matter that would hopefully shed more light on the area. Correlation is not causation, you're right, but of course also correlation is not necessarily not causation. Correct me if I'm wrong, but white supremacists were in plenty 100 years ago, but to my knowledge they didn't have these lone wolf attacks where they shoot up churches. It is deranged, irrational behaviour, and the only thing that appears to have changed between then and now is the huge increase in cannabis use by these killers.
You'd have a point if marijuana use has increased by a serious magnitude since it has been made legal or the laws have simply been unenforced. But it hasn't. Cannabis use has remained more or less consistent since the laws have changed. However, let's list some other countries with similar legalization, decriminalization, or unenforced;

Netherlands
Belgium
Spain
Portugal
Germany
Austria
Romania
Estonia
Denmark
Moldova
Italy
Croatia
Slovenia
Russia
Switzerland
Czech Republic
Albania
Luxembourg

Hmmm..

No spikes in violent crimes in those countries..
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
I'll rephrase: "Alcohol is already legal, therefore we should allow more of these dangerous drugs to be legal?"

Why not ? The problem is the current hypocrisy.
We turn a blind eye to alcohol consumption and engage in a war against cannabis.
Rather than spending even more resources in a fruitless war, how about doing something to heavily reduce alcohol abuse ?
 

Sultan Of Swing

Well-Known Member
Why not ? The problem is the current hypocrisy.
We turn a blind eye to alcohol consumption and engage in a war against cannabis.
Rather than spending even more resources in a fruitless war, how about doing something to heavily reduce alcohol abuse ?
Such as?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
There seems to be a disturbing correlation in many of the recent mass killings and irrational acts of violence we have had. Many seem to be heavy cannabis users. People are immediately dismissive of such a notion, cannabis users are harmless stoners, but sure, that's the majority. Could you entertain the possibility that a minority of heavy users are psychiatrically affected by the drug, and prone to irrational acts of violence?

Of course I can. It is, after all, psychoactive.

I never understood why people expected otherwise.
 

BSM1

What? Me worry?
Why not ? The problem is the current hypocrisy.
We turn a blind eye to alcohol consumption and engage in a war against cannabis.
Rather than spending even more resources in a fruitless war, how about doing something to heavily reduce alcohol abuse ?


I believe you can find more instances of people without mental illnesses attacking others when they are drunk than you can people with mental illnesses attacking others when they are stoned. About the only thing you're going to "attack" when you're stoned is a bag of corn chips.
 
No, it's not. If anything, the stronger types are better because you use less.

Am not sure that it makes people use less, didn't with anyone I know anyway.

I know plenty of people who have had issues with cannabis. One friend who had preexisting issues was made far far worse by smoking weed to the point of becoming delusional and incoherent. Other friends who freely admit it caused them significant issues with paranoia. Making violent people feel paranoid is asking for trouble.

Alcohol is the worst for violence, and most people use weed with little or no ill effect, and often benefit from it, but it clearly causes significant problems in some people.

Just as it does no good to demonise it, it does no good to pretend that there are no harms associated with it.
 
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