Cannabis and violence, mass killings

[Curious George]

http://www.camh.ca/en/hospital/abou...ness-associated-with-heavy-cannabis-use-.aspx
April 2, 2013 - People with mental illnesses are more than seven times more likely to use cannabis weekly compared to people without a mental illness, according to researchers from the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health (CAMH) who studied U.S. data.
Based on the number of individuals reporting weekly use, we see that people with mental illness use cannabis at high rates.
Researchers also found that individuals with mental illness were 10 times more likely to have a cannabis use disorder.

Before the 1920s/30s, no one cared and it wasn't illegal, so they wouldn't have kept records like that back then like they do now while the "war on drugs" is going on.

Didn't you claim that this study showed:

A study a few years ago showed that those with mental disorders are more likely to use cannabis, though the cannabis use itself does not cause the disorders.

No, it's not. If anything, the stronger types are better because you use less.

Now I am no expert, but I was under the impression that drug could act as a trigger for certain disorders.

You seem to be claiming different things in these two posts, could you elaborate?

 

[Paranoid Android]

Didn't you claim that this study showed:



Now I am no expert, but I was under the impression that drug could act as a trigger for certain disorders.

You seem to be claiming different things in these two posts, could you elaborate?

It can interact with mental illness. Approximately 60 % of EVERYONE that uses drugs has a mental illness.

 

[Curious George]

It can interact with mental illness. Approximately 60 % of EVERYONE that uses drugs has a mental illness.

Hmm, does this show what was claimed? No.

 

[Curious George]

The point is that these psychotic, violent people who are heavy users of cannabis are so because of the underlying issues, or mental disorder they already have. Cannabis use is only a symptom in their case (correlated, not causative), which means any ban, taxation, or whatever means or method to control the substance will not change those violent, psychotic people's underlying mental health. They will only find other ways of getting high during their psychosis. They could just as well breathe spray cans (yeah, you can get high from just breathing the gas in whip-cream canisters, outlawing whip-cream won't solve the problem).

The tongue-in-cheek posts earlier posts to this problem quite clearly. Water and psychosis are correlated. Coffee and psychosis is as well.

Water intoxication and symptoms of psychosis: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1770067/

High use of coffee linked to induced psychosis: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-06-21/high-caffeine-use-linked-to-psychotic-symptoms/2766144

Hmm, I understand that stats can be used to show correlation and make people jump to erroneous conclusions, butyou should probably attack the actual methodology.

 

[Curious George]

When the study was first announced by the media, the head researcher gave a statement that there was no correlation to suggest that pot usage caused mental illnesses - a response he gave to the media that hyped it up as if that's what the study was saying. Even though it's widely speculated that the increased chance of usage is due to self-medication, the study itself did not delve into it as that was outside of the scope of the research. And they never will find a strong enough correlation to link pot to causing mental illness, because there are a ton of people who smoke pot who don't have mental illnesses and function normally within society.

Cannabis is not mind altering. It may give a "scenic route" in your thought process, in some it may open the flood-gates of creativity, but mind-altering it is not.
Now, if you want to discuss psilocybin mushrooms or LSD, substances that give you entirely different perspectives and allow you to literally view the world differently and granting you new perspectives (they're both especially helpful in people managing end-of-life anxieties), those are mind altering.
There is also no correlation between pot and "irrational acts of violence." In a round-about way, that's like saying Bob Marley sung of hatred, chaos, and mass murders.

Well it would be nice to have the actual site of him saying this. But that is a pretty significant conclusion. If he were talking about the general population and not just his selected group, such a finding would be published. But it was not.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Well it would be nice to have the actual site of him saying this. But that is a pretty significant conclusion. If he were talking about the general population and not just his selected group, such a finding would be published. But it was not.

It was published a few years ago (which is why the issue of trying to find it again).

 

[Curious George]

It was published a few years ago.

Again, you are telling me you have no support for the claim that marijuana does not cause mental illness in any people.

I also would like to inquire about whether this claim extends to marijuana use as a trigger for mental disorders.

 

[Ouroboros]

Some interesting points about marijuana and its relationship with mental illness: http://www.drugabuse.gov/publicatio...ere-link-between-marijuana-use-mental-illness

 

[Curious George]

In America, the "war on drugs" is a political movement that increased enforcement of drug laws, made drug penalties more severe, made it so there are big kudos to those making drug busts, flooded society with fallacious anti-drug propaganda, and has even made it so a felony drug bust - even for nothing more possession - will prevent you from receiving any federal aid even though violent crimes, such as rape, will not bar someone from federal aid. The "war on drugs" is the reason America has such a high rate of people in prison. And while they say your brain on drugs is like an egg being fried, they never never imply things like your liver on alcohol abuse is like a sack of fruit in a plastic bag that was left out in the heat to rot and decay. Really the only thing it has succeeded in is filling jails and prisons with non-violent offenders who would be better off having to go to rehab.

There really isn't one. And, as I posted earlier, those with mental illnesses are more likely to use marijuana, and those who commit mass killings sometimes (but not always) do display signs of mental instability.

When you look at the statistics, nothing is more dangerous and deadly than tobacco, alcohol is second. Excluding tobacco, alcohol kills more people than all prescription, OTC, and illegal drugs combined. Certain prescription drugs, such as opium-based narcotics, pose a major risk, especially when they are prescribed to people who have little-to-no knowledge and/or experience with drugs, but there aren't many people who actively speak out against the dangers they pose. But people do lash out against pot, even though water, via hyperhydration, has killed more people than pot.

Actually, in Portugal drug use has declined since they decriminalized. And a recent study, conducted in Washington I think, has shown that the number of teens using pot since legalization has decreased. As far as I can tell, if your goal is to decrease drug use, your best option is to legalize.

Lot's of things cause adverse effects in some people. Anti-depressants, for example, will make some people even more depressed and even suicidal. Some people had bad reactions to alcohol. Some people even get motion sickness in a car. But we are talking about general usage.

please find the Washington study you cite. I believe the trend was decreasing before the "legalization" in Washington.

You talk a lot about other drugs being more harmful, your use of water as a bigger killer is a misuse of statistics.

The use of other drugs is permitted because of balancing harm vs. Good. If this is your argument for marijuana, I am pretty sure there are hundreds of studies documenting beneficial effects of marijuana.

However, the way your argument is formed now seems to be "but this is bad too" which doesn't give a fair portrayal of the other regulated drugs, nor does it support any relaxation of the law for marijuana.

If I have two cracks in my window and choose to fix the minor one first, that I had a bigger crack does not negate reasoning to fix the little crack, nor does it make fixing the little crack illogical.

 

[Curious George]

"Abuse" ... absolutely. But, responsible "use" should not be punished or met with any legal resistance, imho.

Responsible use should be punished if this is a reasonable way to limit abuse. Pretty sure there is no right to use drugs recreationally.

 

[Curious George]

I have little to no background on this subject. It seems there are many positive uses for marijuana and the negative side effects are extremely low in comparison to other acceptable drugs (excepting, of course, the often desired side effects).

There was substantial anti-marijuana propaganda unleashed unjustly. I generally disagree with banning things (especially when done with unfounded rhetoric). While to my knowledge nothing has given us cause to believe marijuana cannot act as a trigger for certain disorders, nothing has given us any reason to suspect proportions of this not already deemed acceptable by the administrative bodies.

I believe there is a substantial and growing body of actual research which would be important for me to understand in order to have an informed opinion.

Honestly, I am surprised more research was not cited here.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Again, you are telling me you have no support for the claim that marijuana does not cause mental illness in any people.

No, I told you it's hard to find because it was published awhile ago. Many media outlets ate the study up as saying pot causes mental illness, but the head researcher gave a statement saying that is not the case.

However, the way your argument is formed now seems to be "but this is bad too" which doesn't give a fair portrayal of the other regulated drugs, nor does it support any relaxation of the law for marijuana.

I am pointing out the flaws in such arguments. People say pot is bad, but there are a myriad of other things that are worse. We say "hard" drugs are dangerous, but when you look at the statistics prescription narcotics are are more of a problem. We say you shouldn't do drugs because of the risks and how bad they are, but the two legal ones, alcohol and tobacco, are more destructive and deadly than everything else combined. And we also completely ignore the risks associated with numerous drugs, such as caffeine or OTC drugs.

 

[Curious George]

No, I told you it's hard to find because it was published awhile ago. Many media outlets ate the study up as saying pot causes mental illness, but the head researcher gave a statement saying that is not the case.

I am pointing out the flaws in such arguments. People say pot is bad, but there are a myriad of other things that are worse. We say "hard" drugs are dangerous, but when you look at the statistics prescription narcotics are are more of a problem. We say you shouldn't do drugs because of the risks and how bad they are, but the two legal ones, alcohol and tobacco, are more destructive and deadly than everything else combined. And we also completely ignore the risks associated with numerous drugs, such as caffeine or OTC drugs.

And I am pointing out the flaws in your argument.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

And I am pointing out the flaws in your argument.

My argument isn't flawed, as I am pointing out that concerns are not valid, and people place this label of "bad" inconsistently.

 

[Curious George]

My argument isn't flawed, as I am pointing out that concerns are not valid, and people place this label of "bad" inconsistently.

No, you have nowhere indicated the concerns are not valid. You suggested a guy who wrote a study made a public comment (that can not be found) and did not include this supposed finding in the paper.

And your second point would be a little more valid if all people who were anti marijuana were also anti alcohol and tobacco. This is not the case. Caffeine and water comments hardly compare.

Tobaccois even iffy, because one could specifically worry about intoxication.

So, your arguments are flawed. However, that should be somewhat easy to rectify.

 

[Poisonshady313]

And your second point would be a little more valid if all people who were anti marijuana were also anti alcohol and tobacco. This is not the case.

I thought that is the point. People who are anti-marijuana ought to be anti-alcohol and anti-tobacco if their "drugs are bad" position is to be consistent. But the idea that a special level of evil is conferred upon pot despite its RELATIVE harmlessness suggests that, for the most part, positions against marijuana are irrational.

 

[Curious George]

I thought that is the point. People who are anti-marijuana ought to be anti-alcohol and anti-tobacco if their "drugs are bad" position is to be consistent. But the idea that a special level of evil is conferred upon pot despite its RELATIVE harmlessness suggests that, for the most part, positions against marijuana are irrational.

Hmm no. Firstly, we would need to define relative harmlesssness. Are we talking the water and caffeine arguments? Yeah, not so much.

Alcohol and tobacco? Sure let's give it a whirl. In what ways do people support alcohol and tobacco but not support marijuana.

Because as of now the straw man is getting bigger. I haven't seen the argument that marijuana is bad but alcohol and tobacco are good.

Now if someone believes they are all bad but are not for the legalization of marijuana, that does not mean their point is irrational.

There are several reasons why this is so. Perhaps they believe keeping something illegal is easier than making something illegal, therefore choose to focus on marijuana.

Perhaps they focus on intoxicating substances such as alcohol and marijuana, therefore do not say tobacco should be illegal.

Perhaps they focus on odorous substances that they have to smell when people smoke, so alcohol is acceptable but tobacco and marijuana are not (at least in smokable form).

Or perhaps they have another reason. The point is that building a straw man doesn't help anything. Attacking non existent arguments just detracts from the chance to make a good argument advocating the legalization of marijuana if that is what you want.

But trying to set it up so everyone against marijuana is wrong, because of other things are bad, is a horrible argument.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Alcohol and tobacco? Sure let's give it a whirl. In what ways do people support alcohol and tobacco but not support marijuana.

Because as of now the straw man is getting bigger. I haven't seen the argument that marijuana is bad but alcohol and tobacco are good.

Now if someone believes they are all bad but are not for the legalization of marijuana, that does not mean their point is irrational.

There are several reasons why this is so. Perhaps they believe keeping something illegal is easier than making something illegal, therefore choose to focus on marijuana.

Number of people arrested for a marijuana law violation in 2013: 693,482

• Number of those charged with marijuana law violations who were arrested for possession only: 609,423 (88 percent)

http://www.drugpolicy.org/drug-war-statistics

More than half a million people were arrested for possession of a substance which has as much recreational value as alcohol yet is far less responsible for deaths than alcohol, and this is just dandy because anti-pot individuals are too lazy to try to bring back the prohibition of alcohol? There is a double standard. Either it's illegal because it's dangerous and therefore more dangerous substances ought to be made illegal, or marijuana should be treated just like alcohol. Let it be legal, only for adults, and zero tolerance for driving while impaired.

Perhaps they focus on intoxicating substances such as alcohol and marijuana, therefore do not say tobacco should be illegal.

People who favor the legalization of marijuana bring up tobacco not in the context of intoxication, but in the context of the fact that it kills 480,000 people annually, while marijuana kills 0 people annually.

Perhaps they focus on odorous substances that they have to smell when people smoke, so alcohol is acceptable but tobacco and marijuana are not (at least in smokable form).

Perhaps perhaps perhaps. You're full of perhaps. Without perhaps, marijuana is less dangerous than either alcohol or tobacco, yet it remains illegal.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I thought that is the point. People who are anti-marijuana ought to be anti-alcohol and anti-tobacco if their "drugs are bad" position is to be consistent. But the idea that a special level of evil is conferred upon pot despite its RELATIVE harmlessness suggests that, for the most part, positions against marijuana are irrational.

Yes, that is the point. People who often claim pot is bad do not go on such campaigns against alcohol, even though alcohol is addictive and very destructive when abused, whereas marijuana itself is not addictive, there are no withdrawals from suddenly quitting, and when it comes to deaths alcohol is only bested by tobacco, whereas pot hasn't killed anyone. They say it's supposed to be a gateway drug, even though it's been established it isn't pot but the illegal status that exposes people to other drugs. They say it's worse than smoking a tobacco cigarette, but a joint a day, even after 20 years, has only negligible effects.

 

[Curious George]

Number of people arrested for a marijuana law violation in 2013: 693,482

• Number of those charged with marijuana law violations who were arrested for possession only: 609,423 (88 percent)

http://www.drugpolicy.org/drug-war-statistics

More than half a million people were arrested for possession of a substance which has as much recreational value as alcohol yet is far less responsible for deaths than alcohol, and this is just dandy because anti-pot individuals are too lazy to try to bring back the prohibition of alcohol? There is a double standard. Either it's illegal because it's dangerous and therefore more dangerous substances ought to be made illegal, or marijuana should be treated just like alcohol. Let it be legal, only for adults, and zero tolerance for driving while impaired.


People who favor the legalization of marijuana bring up tobacco not in the context of intoxication, but in the context of the fact that it kills 480,000 people annually, while marijuana kills 0 people annually.



Perhaps perhaps perhaps. You're full of perhaps. Without perhaps, marijuana is less dangerous than either alcohol or tobacco, yet it remains illegal.

Perhaps...

But it is still a bad argument. A flawed argument and an argument based on a straw man, hence the plethora of perhaps....