Can women be prophetesses in Abrahamic religions?

[fullyveiled muslimah]

Yes, I got this LITTLE information from Proud Muslim from the Ishmael is not a prophet thread:





Can you show me when in the Qur'an and Hadith talk of the 46 signs.

• And do you care to elaborate these 46 signs that fit a person to the criteria of being prophethood, because I have already asked what these 46 signs are?

She didn't elaborate, and when asked what 46 signs that Ishmael had, she again didn't elaborate:

• Now would you care to tell me what 46 signs that Ishmael had?

The Qur'an has listed Ishmael as being a prophet. Ishmael had no visions and no visitations given in the Torah's and bible's Genesis. So there must be 46 signs from Ishmael, otherwise he isn't a prophet

But since you say that there are 46 signs, then prove it by giving me exactly 46 signs that Ishmael had.

Otherwise the Hadith is nothing but BS, especially if you can't provide me 46 signs of each and every prophet, listed in your Qur'an.

The Qur'an ignored many of the prophets not in your list, but they were prophets in the Tanakh and in the Bible.

The Qur'an completely ignored Samuel and Nathan, very important prophets in the time of King Saul and King David (in books 1 and 2 of Samuel).

Just because they are not listed in the Qur'an doesn't mean they weren't prophets. A number of prophets never wrote a single book or letter, and yet they were mentioned in the non-Islamic scriptures.

• Do you ignore them, simply because they are not in your precious list?

If you take the time to use your common sense yourself, and see that I have already given 4 references that explicitly say that Miriam, Deborah, Huldah and Anna were prophetesses, then who are you to dismiss them out of the hand.

I have backup my points with sources in post #17.

What have you given me?

Nothing than your opinion about women, with no sources to back up your position. You have said 46 signs, and that men are different from women, and yet you have no sources to either women can't be prophetesses or the 46 signs of Ishmael of being a prophet.

So you would have to realise your argument (and Proud Muslim's in the other thread) is weak and flawed.



Don't be a fool.

I am not asking you to redefine Islam. Neither Qur'an nor Sunnah clearly prohibit women from being female prophets, so how can Islam be redefined.

Judaism at least accept these women (except Anna) as being prophetesses.

• Are you dismissing their scriptures, because your Qur'an don't mention any woman, and yet don't prohibit it either?

And you have dismissed my view/reasoning and more importantly, my textual evidences, out of hand, so why should I even considered your opinion as being mean authorities, when you can't even backup your opinion with your sources.



Knowledge, FVM (fullyveiled muslimah). Knowledge.

Just because I don't have the belief in the Judaeo-Christian or Islamic religion, don't mean I don't care to gain knowledge. I care about knowledge.

I like researching mythology, legend and folklore, with side interests in history, arts, architectures and religions.

Do you know how many people believe your faith and other faiths, and yet they don't even understand what they believe?

You know if you notice gnostic, I don't really bother addressing you in the forums. The only reason I did it in this thread was because for some odd reason you thought it necessary to address me by putting my name in one of your posts. You may believe that I don't really bother with you due to you "proving me wrong" or perhaps I "can't back up what I say", but in reality the truth is a whole lot simpler than that. The reason why I don't bother debating with you chief among others is:

I DON'T LIKE YOU.

So, aside from that you debate for the sake of it, and I debate for purpose. You do this under the guise of seeking knowledge yet you enter every thread as though you've already figured it all out, and someone owes you an explanation. It smacks of arrogance and I hate arrogance. You already know the "answers" so there is no need whatsoever to address you or discuss anything at all with you. Even if I took the time out to offer you all the evidence you ask for (which I note you aren't worth that effort imo), you would still be able to "prove me wrong".

Another thing is that because you debate for the sake of a debate, you don't seem to want anything from it other than to prove someone wrong or be proven wrong yourself. That's not my style. You aren't thoughtful or thought-provoking, you're not insightful, you don't inspire me to want to talk to you at all, you don't ask compelling questions, and you don't offer me an intellectual challenge even though you may feel otherwise.

I'll tell you something, for everytime Kai or ymirgif has ****** me off on these forums, I can get a good discussion out of them. They have asked compelling questions that made me think, and go back and re-evaluate my own knowledge base. You should take notes. For instance the Caliphate thread where the question was asked why the Muslims don't have one. That was a good one and deserved answers and replies. Your threads do no such thing.

I would appreciate it if we could simply avoid one another. I can't control what you write, but I would be ever grateful to Allah if you just didn't address me like.... ever. From here on out I will avoid you to the best of my ability.

 

[Caladan]

I just want to point out that being of noble birth or a ruler is not the same thing as being a prophet from the Islamic POV. It cannot be denied there were many female rulers in ancient times up until today. What also must be mentioned was that in order to receive that respect and recognition she HAD to be of noble birth and bloodline. The average woman of ancient times didn't have it so well. Unless we're going to do a little revisionist history and say that women in general had it pretty good, which we know that's not true. So yes there were plenty of well recongnized queens and respected female figures, but this was not the typical state of things especially for women. History is replete with instances of women being treated less than human, denied education, denied simple rights, etc etc.

There were some Prophets who were also kings, but many many more who were from the poor and the average people. This is what I'm thinking of, a woman from among the poor and average. Women having it good was the exception not the rule.

I dont think this answer cover all bases.
what about women leaders who began at the bottom of the social ladder, like Joan of Arc?

many groups of people didnt 'have it good' but had considerable success non the less. Tacitus informs us that many senators in Rome where descendant of slaves.

also, we have to address the women who were prophetesses, but did not come from the lowest parts of society, you acknowledge that there were prophets that came from a high social status, what about those of them who were women?

 

[gnostic]

You may believe that I don't really bother with you due to you "proving me wrong" or perhaps I "can't back up what I say", but in reality the truth is a whole lot simpler than that. The reason why I don't bother debating with you chief among others is:

I DON'T LIKE YOU.

It is your right to "like me" or "not like me". I supposed I am not an easy person to like.

So, aside from that you debate for the sake of it, and I debate for purpose. You do this under the guise of seeking knowledge yet you enter every thread as though you've already figured it all out, and someone owes you an explanation. It smacks of arrogance and I hate arrogance.

When I don't get answer, which supplied evidences to support the other view, I do get somewhat...antsy.

You need to realise that if you participate in a debate, you do need to provide evidence(s) or source(s), whether it be textual, physical or otherwise, to support your points. Otherwise, the points presented would be weak, and less than persuasive.

But leaving that aside.

I have given you private apology. This is a public one.

If you wish I don't want to communicate, discuss or debate with you, then I will do so. I will not correspond with you in the future.

If you think I rude, offensive, aggressive and arrogant, then I will apologise.

I am sorry. I do offer my sincere apology to you.

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

It is your right to "like me" or "not like me". I supposed I am not an easy person to like.



When I don't get answer, which supplied evidences to support the other view, I do get somewhat...antsy.

You need to realise that if you participate in a debate, you do need to provide evidence(s) or source(s), whether it be textual, physical or otherwise, to support your points. Otherwise, the points presented would be weak, and less than persuasive.

But leaving that aside.

I have given you private apology. This is a public one.

If you wish I don't want to communicate, discuss or debate with you, then I will do so. I will not correspond with you in the future.

If you think I rude, offensive, aggressive and arrogant, then I will apologise.

I am sorry. I do offer my sincere apology to you.

I'm not a rigid person gnostic. You don't owe me apology the first for being yourself. In fact you owe me nothing at all whatsoever. That's nothing to say sorry over. It's just that I'm a straight-shooter and I can't hide that. I too apologize if I have offended you in any way. My comments were snarky and I am sorry for that. I meant it, but I said it in a rude manner, and again I offer my apologies to you.

BTW: I do not have a detailed sketch of Ismail's (as) life in order to supply you with each instance demonstrating his prophethood. That's a tall order for a layman such as myself. However, I will be looking for the list of the 45/6 attributes of Nubuwwat. If/when I find them I'll post them.

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

I dont think this answer cover all bases.
what about women leaders who began at the bottom of the social ladder, like Joan of Arc?

many groups of people didnt 'have it good' but had considerable success non the less. Tacitus informs us that many senators in Rome where descendant of slaves.

also, we have to address the women who were prophetesses, but did not come from the lowest parts of society, you acknowledge that there were prophets that came from a high social status, what about those of them who were women?

Well of course my answer does not cover all bases, I would argue it doesn't cover very many. My answers even up until this point have been my opinion only. There is not evidence I have Islamic or otherwise that state specifically that the reason Allah didn't pick female prophets is because x,y,z. These were just some of the reasons I thought perhaps a woman wasn't picked.

I do not believe women have ever been chosen for this job because I have not seen any Islamic evidence, whether Qur'an or hadith that says anything about it. I do realize that Qur'an nor hadith covers or bothers to cover the name and gender of every nabi/rasul to ever grace the Earth. I don't have a problem with that. I also want to point out that Christians and Muslims share a common belief generally in most prophets. However, we are different religions and I am not bound by what the Bible says. Nor am I bound by my own religion to accept everything the Bible says. So though it may be the case that the Bible has cited some female prophets, I am not compelled to accept that.

I do also want to point out that from the Islamic POV a prophet was only a considered so if they did three things.

1. Teach the oneness of Allah
2. Teach and proclaim that they themselves are the true messengers of Allah.
3. Teach the akhirah i.e., heaven, hell, judgment day, etc.

These three things are aside from other characteristics that differentiated a prophet from his peers, and other people in general.

I hope I'm being clear. I took this thread really as an opinion poll, and not as one that I would have to buckle down and bring my evidences. Sorry, sometimes I take some threads less seriously than others. I was really just chucking in my 2¢ in.

 

[gnostic]

You're gracious, fullyveiled muslimah.

I don't believe that you owe me an apology, because it was obviously that I have upset you here and elsewhere in RF. I can be tactless, I can be aggressive with my view, and taking the debate too seriously.

There was nothing that you wrote that offended me.

So, there's no need for you to apologise.

Nevertheless, I will still avoid addressing to you in future topic and replying posts....unless you make direct post to me. You have asked that we avoid each other:

I would appreciate it if we could simply avoid one another. I can't control what you write, but I would be ever grateful to Allah if you just didn't address me like.... ever. From here on out I will avoid you to the best of my ability.

So I wish you well.

 

[gnostic]

I dont think this answer cover all bases.
what about women leaders who began at the bottom of the social ladder, like Joan of Arc?

many groups of people didnt 'have it good' but had considerable success non the less. Tacitus informs us that many senators in Rome where descendant of slaves.

also, we have to address the women who were prophetesses, but did not come from the lowest parts of society, you acknowledge that there were prophets that came from a high social status, what about those of them who were women?

I just find that some of the Muslims saying that the women can't be female prophets because of their gender or their strength not very persuasive or logical points.

Especially when you considered that the bible say that the number of women were explictly named as being prophetesses. I think to ignore one source would be illogical, just because it is not the written in the Qur'an.

Also illogical to say that can't be women, as matter of either opinion or dogma, when nothing in the Qur'an or Sunnah that explicitly prohibited women from being women prophets.

Granted. Time were harsh for women back then, but there are precedence that women can do the same thing as men.

Granted that I am non-believer, but as mister emu's list of prophetesses of indicated, I can see quite clearly from the sources that is more than possible for women to be prophetesses, even when I don't believe in prophet or prophecy.

In the biblical story, Deborah was married, but it didn't stop her from being both judge of Israel for 40 years and from her being a prophetess.

The Judges also say that people living near the hill, which she like to sit, and people would go there to seek her for her wisdom. She was the one who guided Barak to victory in the war against Sisera, a commander of the Canaanite king's army.

Read chapter 4 and 5, then you will understand she had leadership, through her role as a prophet and judge.

One of you have argue that women can't go out unescorted. Well, Deborah clearly wasn't supervised by her husband, when she went with Barak and army of warriors to defeat the Canaanites. Just because Islamic or Arabic society don't allow women go unescorted, doesn't mean the ancient Hebrew women had the same customs.

Was Hagar escorted by adult male kinsman, when she was banished from Abraham's presence? She had practically raised Ishmael himself in the wilderness. This would suggest that she was survivor and stronger than the Muslim women. This clearly contradict the Qur'an's or Sunnah's commandment that women can't go out in public, unescorted.

There are so few women prophets, outnumbered by the male prophets, and in most case, not well-documented as in the case with Miriam or Deborah, but from the Hebrew and Christian sources they (women prophets) do exist.

As I said before, the Qur'an don't list every single male prophet that can be found in Tanakh or the Bible. I have already pointed out Samuel and Nathan. Samuel was a very important in prophet in Saul's and David's time. And Nathan was the one who brought message to David about the king's sin, as well as assisting Solomon to gain the throne (see 1 Kings 1).

 

[idea]

29 And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD's people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!
(Old Testament | Numbers11:29)

There are many more prophets than most recognize.


26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
(Old Testament | Genesis1:26 - 27)

before the fall, dominion was given - not just to Adam, but to both Adam and Eve - to both of "them". The image of the Gods is not male, it is "male and female".. It is a result of the fall that women are where they find themselves today. In heaven, the curse will be removed, and women will take their natural position again.

 

[challupa]

I just find that some of the Muslims saying that the women can't be female prophets because of their gender or their strength not very persuasive or logical points.

Especially when you considered that the bible say that the number of women were explictly named as being prophetesses. I think to ignore one source would be illogical, just because it is not the written in the Qur'an.

Also illogical to say that can't be women, as matter of either opinion or dogma, when nothing in the Qur'an or Sunnah that explicitly prohibited women from being women prophets.

Granted. Time were harsh for women back then, but there are precedence that women can do the same thing as men.

Granted that I am non-believer, but as mister emu's list of prophetesses of indicated, I can see quite clearly from the sources that is more than possible for women to be prophetesses, even when I don't believe in prophet or prophecy.

In the biblical story, Deborah was married, but it didn't stop her from being both judge of Israel for 40 years and from her being a prophetess.

The Judges also say that people living near the hill, which she like to sit, and people would go there to seek her for her wisdom. She was the one who guided Barak to victory in the war against Sisera, a commander of the Canaanite king's army.

Read chapter 4 and 5, then you will understand she had leadership, through her role as a prophet and judge.

One of you have argue that women can't go out unescorted. Well, Deborah clearly wasn't supervised by her husband, when she went with Barak and army of warriors to defeat the Canaanites. Just because Islamic or Arabic society don't allow women go unescorted, doesn't mean the ancient Hebrew women had the same customs.

Was Hagar escorted by adult male kinsman, when she was banished from Abraham's presence? She had practically raised Ishmael himself in the wilderness. This would suggest that she was survivor and stronger than the Muslim women. This clearly contradict the Qur'an's or Sunnah's commandment that women can't go out in public, unescorted.

There are so few women prophets, outnumbered by the male prophets, and in most case, not well-documented as in the case with Miriam or Deborah, but from the Hebrew and Christian sources they (women prophets) do exist.

As I said before, the Qur'an don't list every single male prophet that can be found in Tanakh or the Bible. I have already pointed out Samuel and Nathan. Samuel was a very important in prophet in Saul's and David's time. And Nathan was the one who brought message to David about the king's sin, as well as assisting Solomon to gain the throne (see 1 Kings 1).

This doesn't have too much to do with prophetess status, but it does show that women had some say. Leah and Rachel definitely had control of their lives as they were the ones that named their sons and pretty much told Jacob who he was going to be with when it suited them. Right down to also impregnating their handmaidens when they said so. Women from matriarchial lines (which some were), had lots of say unlike now. Your comment about Hagar is true. She was actually quite strong and she should be an role model for Islam women being the mother of Ishmael and all. Don't they say they come from his line?

 

[gnostic]

This doesn't have too much to do with prophetess status, but it does show that women had some say. Leah and Rachel definitely had control of their lives as they were the ones that named their sons and pretty much told Jacob who he was going to be with when it suited them. Right down to also impregnating their handmaidens when they said so. Women from matriarchial lines (which some were), had lots of say unlike now. Your comment about Hagar is true. She was actually quite strong and she should be an role model for Islam women being the mother of Ishmael and all. Don't they say they come from his line?

I understand that both Hebrew and Islamic society was patriarchal, and that the men were better off than women in almost every circumstance back then, but it would seem that the Muhammad has weaken the women's position far more than the ancient Hebrew time.

I have commented on Deborah on a number of occasions here, but get absolutely no response about her from the Muslims.

She was clearly of not noble birth, and has independence, despite being married. People went to seek her for wisdom, and she was a prophetess. And it wasn't just women seeking her advice; both men and women went to the hill that she usually sit under a tree.

The status of Islamic women have been reduced as just objects to minding the house and children. Hagar was far stronger if she could survive alone with her son, while he was growing up.

 

[challupa]

I understand that both Hebrew and Islamic society was patriarchal, and that the men were better off than women in almost every circumstance back then, but it would seem that the Muhammad has weaken the women's position far more than the ancient Hebrew time.

I have commented on Deborah on a number of occasions here, but get absolutely no response about her from the Muslims.

She was clearly of not noble birth, and has independence, despite being married. People went to seek her for wisdom, and she was a prophetess. And it wasn't just women seeking her advice; both men and women went to the hill that she usually sit under a tree.

The status of Islamic women have been reduced as just objects to minding the house and children. Hagar was far stronger if she could survive alone with her son, while he was growing up.

Well it's actually rather interesting how people like to say the Hebrew were patriachial, but when you read the different versions you can see that it isn't that straightforward. There are lots of things like Rachel and Leah that go on that show the later versions of the scriptures were re-written to show up as patriachial. In fact it was a slow process and not really as prevalent as people thought in the beginning. Abraham's kin were somewhat but his son's wives were from a matriachial line and that showed in the earlier scriptures. Women have been increasingly suppressed over the centuries, but they didn't start out that way.

 

[gnostic]

I don't think that the women are restricted in the hebrew scriptures as well, not the way that Muslims or Islam claim women to be.

 

[gnostic]

I don't remember the story of Esther and Ruth that well.

Do anyone think either of these women fit the profile of prophet?

I don't think they were. I think that they were just devout in their faith, but as I've said I don't remember their stories that well.

 

[gnostic]

TashaN:

I was wondering if you have any thought about women prophets.

Do you think there women can be female prophets?

I know that the Qur'an don't list any woman as being a prophet, but it also don't prohibit from women from being ones. Also the names in the lists in the Qur'an are not exhaustive, and many names that are found in the Hebrew texts are omitted in the Qur'an, most noticeable are Samuel and Nathan.

The Hebrew tanakh and Christian bible do list several. At least 3 are explicitly named in the Hebrew texts - Miriam, Deborah and Huldah. And one in the gospel (Anna).

Do gender prevents one from being a prophet?

Proud Muslim said that women are weak and emotional, hence they can't become prophets.

Do strength have do with being a prophet?

 

[gnostic]

I have not voted in the poll, because I am not sure which to pick.

For one, I don't believe in there being prophets, however, since some were named prophets in the religious literature, it is therefore possible that women can be prophetesses.

I supposed I could choose "Others..." in the poll selection.

 

[TashaN]

Just a general questions to those who are knowledgable about Islam:

Does Islam accept the prophets mentioned in the Torah as prophets?

Someone claimed this and I wanted to verify.

Although Islam teaches us that Allah has sent 124,000 Prophets, and amongst them, there were 315 Messengers, but we can't say for sure that EVERY single prophet mentioned in the Torah considered to be a real prophet according to Islam, because sometimes, a prophet has more than one meaning to different religions, and even to different cultures in the past, so when being translated into modern languages, different views might arise.


To gnostic:

Muslims are obliged to accept those who been mentioned by name in the Quran. Our position regarding those who been mentioned in the Torah, Bible, etc is that, we can't say for sure whether they were prophets or not. Prophet Mohammed said that we can't accept it all, and can't reject it all, when it comes to the contents of the previous scriptures, although as Muslims we have to believe in the scriptures themselves, that they were sent by Allah.

This wiki link is a good read as well:

Prophets of Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That's why, if some people posted the names of some prophets who been mentioned in the other scriptures than the Quran, i won't be able to say for certain whether they are prophets or not because i would never know, for the reasons i mentioned above.

 

[TashaN]

TashaN:

I was wondering if you have any thought about women prophets.

Do you think there women can be female prophets?

I know that the Qur'an don't list any woman as being a prophet, but it also don't prohibit from women from being ones. Also the names in the lists in the Qur'an are not exhaustive, and many names that are found in the Hebrew texts are omitted in the Qur'an, most noticeable are Samuel and Nathan.

The Hebrew tanakh and Christian bible do list several. At least 3 are explicitly named in the Hebrew texts - Miriam, Deborah and Huldah. And one in the gospel (Anna).

Do gender prevents one from being a prophet?

Proud Muslim said that women are weak and emotional, hence they can't become prophets.

Do strength have do with being a prophet?

Regarding women as prophets, there is no account in Islam about them, as far as i know, but who knows!

Some might give you reasons why women won't make it, but that's not because they are sure of their answer, but because they want to help you understand why women would be less favorable to hold this message, not that there were no women prophets at all. For me, i really don't know whether there were prophetesses or not. And as i said in my previous post, even if some prophets were mentioned in the bible for instance by name--men or women--i wouldn't know for certain whether it's true or not, period. I thought you knew that.

 

[Sahar]

The status of Islamic women have been reduced as just objects to minding the house and children.

I think your problem, gnostic, regarding Islam, that you speak based on your ignorance...

 

[cardero]

Can women be prophetesses in Abrahamic religions?
It depends on how fast God wants the gospel spread.:run:



Don't bother RF, I'll do it myself.

:slap:

 

[gnostic]

I think your problem, gnostic, regarding Islam, that you speak based on your ignorance...

There's nothing in Judaism or in the scripture that say a woman must take a male escort (kinsman) to go out in public.

Nor do they have dress code of what they should wear.

Women wearing headscarf is not mandate to hide the women's modesty. The ancient Israelites lived in arid region, just like the pre-Islamic and Islamic Arab societies do, so it make sense to protect the body from harsh climate. That's far more pragmatic reason why the women dress the way they back then and in that region. It is more to with survival.

Do you think Deborah could be both judge and prophetess if she stayed at home?

With Islam there are too many rules that restrict women movements in public, how they dress or they can't to strangers (esp. males) in public, which is far more oppressive than they do in Judaism.