Can the US afford socialized medicine?

[Reverend Rick]

Are you seriously suggesting that we cannot afford to spend less money than we spend now?

We are not spending anything on 20-40 whatever million people!

Your going to cover them AND maintain the same level of coverage for everyone else AND make it less expensive right?

All I see is people providing health care at clinics and hospitals going broke. YOU WILL DO MORE FOR LESS SAYS THE ALL MIGHTY GOVERNMENT :help:


Here is a last ditch effort for you to understand basic economics.

If you do more for less the savings has to come from somewhere other than thin air right? Obama's plan must be a magic plan.

Why can't you be honest and just say, I want to ruin over 20% of private industry in this country and let the government try and do a better job.

We have a medicare system that is going bankrupt and you want to take 600 billion away from seniors and give the health care to someone else! :cigar:

 

[Smoke]

We are not spending anything on 20-40 whatever million people!

Do I have to explain what per capita means?

Your going to cover them AND maintain the same level of coverage for everyone else AND make it less expensive right?

All I see is people providing health care at clinics and hospitals going broke. YOU WILL DO MORE FOR LESS SAYS THE ALL MIGHTY GOVERNMENT :help:


Here is a last ditch effort for you to understand basic economics.

If you do more for less the savings has to come from somewhere other than thin air right? Obama's plan must be a magic plan.

Why can't you be honest and just say, I want to ruin over 20% of private industry in this country and let the government try and do a better job.

We have a medicare system that is going bankrupt and you want to take 600 billion away from seniors and give the health care to someone else! :cigar:

Lots of other countries deliver better healthcare at a lower cost; it's not magic.
Or are you suggesting that Americans are just too stupid to be able to achieve the kinds of things the Europeans, Canadians and Japanese can achieve?

 

[Reverend Rick]

Do I have to explain what per capita means?

No, and here is where we can reach an understanding. Yes, you can lower the cost for everyone but the total we spend on health care will be more right? More people will have to spend money that is not being spent at the present time.

Lots of other countries deliver better health care at a lower cost; it's not magic.
Or are you suggesting that Americans are just too stupid to be able to achieve the kinds of things the Europeans, Canadians and Japanese can achieve?

Americans are stupid by European standards. They have more education and viable skills to earn a much higher standard of living. Do they have half their people paying zero income tax?

 

[Reverend Rick]

Now Rick, you've been spouting this same nonsense no matter how many times people address it.

If we're in debt, why are we paying MORE to keep this system? If you were paying a monthly fee for a magazine subscription or something, and you found out that another dealer was offering the same magazine for half the price, and you were looking for ways to save money, would you stick with your current dealer and say "bah, I can't afford the cheaper one!"?

To apply your example, say I spent a dollar for a magazine with 100 pages in it. Yes if we printed twice as many magazines with 75 pages at a cost of 50 cents a piece, half the subscribers would pay nothing (like our tax system). I would still pay a dollar and get 25% less magazine.

 

[Reverend Rick]

See, the thing you're missing is that we're already paying for healthcare. What we're proposing is instituting a system where we are still paying for healthcare, but we're paying half as much as we are now. We're not adding anything.

Your adding 40 million more people without one more nurse or doctor to see them.

Except that we're not purchasing anything. We're replacing an expensive system we already have with a much less expensive system.

And putting a larger work load on the medical profession. :yes:

That's true. So, then you should be all about saving the country tens or hundreds of billions of dollars, shouldn't you? By my math, spending $600 billion dollars on something instead of $1.2 trillion (and getting better results) reduces the debt by $600 billion dollars.

Barry, is that you?

No, what you are doing is taking health care away from seniors and giving it to someone else. That is the plan after all, kill off the seniors right?

 

[Smoke]

No, and here is where we can reach an understanding. Yes, you can lower the cost for everyone but the total we spend on health care will be more right? More people will have to spend money that is not being spent at the present time.

Okay, I do have to explain what per capita means. When the World Heath Organization says we pay $6,714 per capita for healthcare, that means $6,714 for every single person in the U.S., whether they actually receive healthcare or not.

Americans are stupid by European standards.

I'm afraid the evidence does point in that direction.

 

[Smoke]

To apply your example, say I spent a dollar for a magazine with 100 pages in it. Yes if we printed twice as many magazines with 75 pages at a cost of 50 cents a piece, half the subscribers would pay nothing (like our tax system). I would still pay a dollar and get 25% less magazine.

Nobody is suggesting printing less magazine. Other advanced countries have proven that you can print more magazine and distribute it to everybody, and do it all at a lower cost.

 

[Smoke]

No, what you are doing is taking health care away from seniors and giving it to someone else. That is the plan after all, kill off the seniors right?

Is that what the Japanese do?

I'm suggesting that we can learn from other countries who do it better and more cheaply than we do.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Okay, I do have to explain what per capita means. When the World Heath Organization says we pay $6,714 per capita for healthcare, that means $6,714 for every single person in the U.S., whether they actually receive healthcare or not.

Oh, I see. We spend 6,714 a year on people who don't walk into a doctors office or hospital.........:areyoucra

 

[Smoke]

Oh, I see. We spend 6,714 a year on people who don't walk into a doctors office or hospital.........:areyoucra

When we talk about per capita costs, Rick, we're talking about the average cost per person. Obviously, we spend little or nothing on some people and a great deal more than $6714 on others.

 

[Reverend Rick]

When we talk about per capita costs, Rick, we're talking about the average cost per person. Obviously, we spend little or nothing on some people and a great deal more than $6714 on others.

OK, If we see more people for less per person, we still could spend more collectively thought right?

 

[Smoke]

OK, If we see more people for less per person, we still could spend more collectively thought right?

There are no more people. Everybody in the U.S. is figured into this calculation.

 

[Smoke]

Let me try to explain it this way.

Let's say you have two groups of 100 people each.

In the first group, 80 people have cars, and they pay $10,000 per car. Per capita spending on cars in this group is $8,000.

In the second group, everybody has a car, and they pay $5,000 per car. Per capita spending on cars in this group is $5,000. Plus, they have better cars than the first group.

 

[Reverend Rick]

OK smoke, someone has to absorb a loss here. Where does the savings come from?

Right now medicare pays a very small amount for a certain service that is provided. If a doctor has all medicare patients he would go broke.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Let me try to explain it this way.

Let's say you have two groups of 100 people each.

In the first group, 80 people have cars, and they pay $10,000 per car. Per capita spending on cars in this group is $8,000.

In the second group, everybody has a car, and they pay $5,000 per car. Per capita spending on cars in this group is $5,000. Plus, they have better cars than the first group.

So if I have to make the cars, I have to make them better for less right? Great deal for the folks, but a rotten deal for the car manufacturer.

 

[enchanted_one1975]

I am getting to think that the majority of folks here think the people and the government should be like children and mommy on allowance day.

 

[xkatz]

Not in this recession.

 

[Smoke]

So if I have to make the cars, I have to make them better for less right? Great deal for the folks, but a rotten deal for the car manufacturer.

Who cares? Why should everybody else suffer so the car manufacturer can sell an inferior product at a higher price?

 

[Smoke]

I am getting to think that the majority of folks here think the people and the government should be like children and mommy on allowance day.

What a stupid analogy. What children band together to form a mommy, support the mommy, and decide how the mommy shall act?

 

[enchanted_one1975]

Who cares? Why should everybody else suffer so the car manufacturer can sell an inferior product at a higher price?

The product gets inferior because the government price-fixing keeps the product from advancing into a superior product.

What a stupid analogy. What children band together to form a mommy, support the mommy, and decide how the mommy shall act?

When is the last time you had a say-so? I wasn't invited to that meeting.