Can the US afford socialized medicine?

[Smoke]

The product gets inferior because the government price-fixing keeps the product from advancing into a superior product.

Who said anything about government price-fixing? I'm talking about greater efficiency. Other countries have already achieved it; Americans could do the same.

When is the last time you had a say-so? I wasn't invited to that meeting.

Sorry you're neither eligible to vote nor capable of contacting your representatives. Many of us are.

If the people didn't have any say, there wouldn't be any point in discussing politics. And even then, I don't think you'd find many mommies who were formed and supported by their children, so your analogy would still be a big fat fail.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

More seriously, can the US afford not to have socialized medicine when it must complete with countries that have it -- and thus have lower health care costs than the US?

GM has closed a bunch of plants here in Ontario recently, but according to the news reports, we were saved even more closures because our public health care program meant lower health care costs and therefore lower overhead (even taking into account differences in taxation) here than in the US. Instead, plants in the US were closed and ours were spared.

Think about it, we have x amount of dollars. We spend y amount of dollars. Divide one into the other and you come up with the percent we over spend. Cut every program by that percent.

If some programs experience an immoral underfunding, we simply cut other programs all together to reduce the percentage.

That sounds like it would work about as well as underpaying the rent and electricity until the credit cards are all paid off.

Personally, I think if you're going to get serious about paying down the debt, you've got to come up with a way to have a functioning government while you do it. That will probably mean a more nuanced approach.

 

[sonofskeptish]

All figures from World Health Organization, latest data available as of this morning:

Perhaps a dumb question, but don't these stats suggest that providing socialized medicine is "cheaper" and "better" for citizens?

 

[Smoke]

Perhaps a dumb question, but don't these stats suggest that providing socialized medicine is "cheaper" and "better" for citizens?

Well, see, I don't think that's a dumb question at all. I think that's a question any person with the use of his brain would ask. The real question is, if socialized medicine is cheaper and better, why are people like Rick and EO so strongly opposed to it?
As far as I can tell from what they've said here, they just have an ideological objection to government as such. Their arguments don't seem to have anything at all to do with realities here on the ground; it all seems to be about ideological purity -- and that in the service of an ideology that does not work, has never worked, and can never work.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Who cares? Why should everybody else suffer so the car manufacturer can sell an inferior product at a higher price?

What that boils down to is doctors and nurses would have to work longer and harder for less seeing all these extra patients while their individual fees collected would be smaller.

You keep talking about other countries. Most doctors I know came here from other countries. They came here to make more money. Things would have to be pretty bad for them in their country for them to learn English and move to another country so they could get ahead in life.

Many surgeons I know spent 20 years in college and internship before they ever saw a penny in income. Many have a million dollar student debt to pay off.

Other doctors do not take any new medicare patients because the government pays them such a small amount for a paticular service.

But who cares right? As long as people can get something for less. Health care is all about greed on both sides. No one has the higher moral ground here. :no:

 

[Smoke]

GM has closed a bunch of plants here in Ontario recently, but according to the news reports, we were saved even more closures because our public health care program meant lower health care costs and therefore lower overhead (even taking into account differences in taxation) here than in the US. Instead, plants in the US were closed and ours were spared.

So our healthcare system costs us jobs and tax revenues as in addition to the other costs.

Personally, I think if you're going to get serious about paying down the debt, you've got to come up with a way to have a functioning government while you do it. That will probably mean a more nuanced approach.

Please, that's just a rhetorical dodge Republicans like to use. If they really cared about deficits, they wouldn't always run them up so high. Ronald Reagan set a record for deficits. George H.W. Bush broke that record. George W. Bush broke that record. Rick was cheering Bush on the whole way; backed Bush's wars and tax cuts and has said as recently as yesterday or the day before that eight years of Bush was very good for him.

Nobody who really cared about deficits would vote Republican. Pretending to care about deficits is just a ruse.

 

[Smoke]

You keep talking about other countries. Most doctors I know came here from other countries. They came here to make more money. Things would have to be pretty bad for them in their country for them to learn English and move to another country so they could get ahead in life.

Yeah, and where are they coming from, Rick? They're all coming from Japan, France, and Denmark, right? Not from countries like India.

Many surgeons I know spent 20 years in college and internship before they ever saw a penny in income. Many have a million dollar student debt to pay off.

Other doctors do not take any new medicare patients because the government pays them such a small amount for a paticular service.

Maybe we'll have to take a look at how other countries -- the ones with successful healthcare systems -- manage these issues.

But who cares right? As long as people can get something for less. Health care is all about greed on both sides. No one has the higher moral ground here. :no:

No, it's about seeing that everybody has healthcare and cutting costs. You prefer that millions of Americans go without healthcare because you think profits are a greater good than public health, and you want to whine about greed? :biglaugh:

Not falling for that one, either. But if you're seriously concerned about maximizing profits, I'm sure anybody you do business with, from your doctor to your car dealer to your newspaper boy, would be willing to let you pay triple if you really, really want to. You could even donate extra money to the government in addition to your regular taxes.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

So our healthcare system costs us jobs and tax revenues as in addition to the other costs.

If it makes you feel better, it meant that my town didn't completely lose its largest employer. We lost the truck plant, but GM's still here.

Please, that's just a rhetorical dodge Republicans like to use.

I don't dispute that. My point was that it doesn't even try to be realistic.

 

[Reverend Rick]

So Smoke, do you really think our doctors and nurses are inefficient and over paid?

 

[Smoke]

So Smoke, do you really think our doctors and nurses are inefficient and over paid?

I didn't say that. If you think that's where all the money is going, break it down for me. I've got a feeling that a fairly decent amount goes to the insurance business.

 

[Smoke]

Well, that's what we're down to. Rick has nothing to say in defense of his position; he's down to trying to make it look like Smoke hates doctors and nurses. That kind of stuff works best on FakeNews, though, where you have total control over what kind of response you'll allow.

And for the record, I don't hate doctors and nurses. Not even the really, really slow ones like Rick's friends who spent 20 years in college and internships.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I didn't say that. If you think that's where all the money is going, break it down for me. I've got a feeling that a fairly decent amount goes to the insurance business.

I don't see insurance stocks going through the roof or anything. :sorry1:

Right now everyone is focused on the economy. Insurance companies have to eat too. :yes:

Socialised medicine would put many folks out of a job. That would be more home foreclosures which in turn would put a strain on the banking system which would lay off more folks so on and so forth.

All this money generated by health care most likely passes down to many many families. It is a big part of our nations economy. Socialized medicine would hurt more people than it helped.

But that is the plan right? Take down the sucessful and give it to the poor. Oh wait a minute, the poor get medicaid don't they?

 

[Reverend Rick]

Well, that's what we're down to. Rick has nothing to say in defense of his position; he's down to trying to make it look like Smoke hates doctors and nurses. That kind of stuff works best on FakeNews, though, where you have total control over what kind of response you'll allow.

And for the record, I don't hate doctors and nurses. Not even the really, really slow ones like Rick's friends who spent 20 years in college and internships.

Yeah, he is real slow. How long do you think it takes to be a heart surgeon. If he gives me the time of day, he must be stupid right?

 

[Smoke]

Socialized medicine would hurt more people than it helped.

Oh, hey. I never thought of that. Why don't we try to double our healthcare costs? Hell, let's triple them. Then we can be really prosperous.

 

[Smoke]

Yeah, he is real slow. How long do you think it takes to be a heart surgeon. If he gives me the time of day, he must be stupid right?

If his college and internship took twenty years, that's pretty slow. It generally doesn't take that long.

 

[Magic Man]

Well, that's what we're down to. Rick has nothing to say in defense of his position;

Actually, that's what it's been down to since the beginning of the thread. Although others have joined in unexpectedly to show their ignorance and silliness, too.

 

[Sunstone]

I grant Rick is genuinely concerned that socialized medicine is a bad deal. Of course, I think he's wrong to side with the current system -- which seems to mainly benefit large corporate insurers and cost twice as much as comparable systems elsewhere. But I think he's sincere in believing socialized medicine is a bad deal.

 

[Smoke]

I grant Rick is genuinely concerned that socialized medicine is a bad deal. Of course, I think he's wrong to side with the current system -- which seems to mainly benefit large corporate insurers and cost twice as much as comparable systems elsewhere. But I think he's sincere in believing socialized medicine is a bad deal.

Oh, I think he believes it. But he can't give any credible reason why -- apart, as I said, from his ideological commitment to free market capitalism.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Actually, that's what it's been down to since the beginning of the thread. Although others have joined in unexpectedly to show their ignorance and silliness, too.

I will tell you what is ignorant, the democratic party that held a super majority in the senate and a majority in the house who had a democratic President that could not lead them effectively to get health care passed.

You guys blew it and you call us ignorant. Typical elitism and ultimate hypocrisy

 

[Smoke]

I will tell you what is ignorant, the democratic party that held a super majority in the senate and a majority in the house who had a democratic President that could not lead them effectively to get health care passed.

That's the most sensible thing you've said all day.

You guys blew it and you call us ignorant. Typical elitism and ultimate hypocrisy

I'm not a Democrat, and since 9-10ths is Canadian, I'm pretty sure he's not a Democrat, either. Has anybody on this thread identified as a Democrat?

Now, as to hypocrisy: how about your party's decades-long commitment to lowering taxes, increasing spending, and then complaining about the deficits you created?