Can Jewish law be fulfilled?

[angellous_evangellous]

evil is an act...its not a thing, its not tangible, its doesnt exist until someone does something which IS evil.

so how could God have 'created' it?

He couldnt, and he didnt. It doesnt exist unless you or I or God perpetrates an evil act.

That's the point. If God does an evil act, how long does it resonate because of his awesome power?

Similarly, we are made in the image of God, so when we perpetuate evil, how long does it resonate?

The longer it resonates, the more tangiable it becomes.

 

[BigRed]

haha you're really grasping at straws, man.

Jesus's death at the hands of the Romans was not his arrangement. His death was due to his pacifism - he would not resist their aggression, being consistent with his interpretation of God's law.

As for not having children, perhaps he did. Who knows? Accusing him of sin based on this is even weaker than your other attempts.

Just say'in. I don't care if you think that Jesus sinned - I'm just pointing out that these points are pretty useless if you're going to try and exploit them in a debate, etc.

Thanks for your opinion.
I'll put those ideas on the bottom of the stack.

BigRed

 

[Pegg]

Power is NOT a verb, but a noun.
It could be that you are having difficulty with grammar. :sorry1:

yeah that was silly of me lol

but i was thinking of Power as a noun because God uses his power to create, to put life into things, to power the sun and by his power we exist and light exists etc... but that was a short sighted use of the word Power i admit.

And since one of the ways we experience and understand God as the All-Powerful, or Almighty, that is why we refer to God this way.

Yup. Because it is a name, a description, not a translation for "God".

What confuses me is that you have used the word 'God' here rather then 'Power' while trying to explain that the Almighty is Power and that is why Elohim does not mean God

see my confusion

But you see... God never refers to angels as children. He calls various humans children all over the place. It describes a relationship.

no, but he does call them his 'beheh' which means 'sons'
You are presenting me with a completely new perspective that i haven't heard before which is why im having a hard time getting my head around it.

Also, humans are called both 'sons' and 'children' ... so whats the significance of the angels not being called 'children' (that's why i asked you the difference between the two, because my understanding is that they are the same, perhaps the Hebrew understanding is something different?)

 

[BigRed]

evil is an act...its not a thing, its not tangible, its doesnt exist until someone does something which IS evil.

so how could God have 'created' it?

He couldnt, and he didnt. It doesnt exist unless you or I or God perpetrates an evil act.

Here is something I wrote recently.
Do you see a relevant connection to evil?

Bible God does not exist. "God is Love" 1John 4:8 But Bible God endorses slavery, polygamy, genocide, and the murder of Heretics and Homosexuals. Bible God treats women as 2nd class citizens, and he is prejudiced against the handicapped. Bible God intends to burn Billions in Hell for all eternity. This is not love. "God is love" is contradicted by the above mentioned unloving actions. Therefore Bible God does not exist.

BigRed

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Here is something I wrote recently.
Do you see a relevant connection to evil?

Bible God does not exist. "God is Love" 1John 4:8 But Bible God endorses slavery, polygamy, genocide, and the murder of Heretics and Homosexuals. Bible God treats women as 2nd class citizens, and he is prejudiced against the handicapped. Bible God intends to burn Billions in Hell for all eternity. This is not love. "God is love" is contradicted by the above mentioned unloving actions. Therefore Bible God does not exist.

BigRed

You should work on that until it's no longer circular logic.

 

[Harmonious]

Two were exiled not 4.

Not necessarily. Two were MENTIONED.

We don't know that four were not exiled.

 

[Harmonious]

Hebrews1:5
For to which of the angels did He ever say,
"YOU ARE MY SON,
TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU"?
And again,
"I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM
AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME"?

BigRed

Interesting...

 

[Pegg]

:hugkiss:

:shout

took ya's long enough :slap:

 

[Harmonious]

yeah that was silly of me lol

but i was thinking of Power as a noun because God uses his power to create, to put life into things, to power the sun and by his power we exist and light exists etc... but that was a short sighted use of the word Power i admit.

Mistakes happen. All is well.

What confuses me is that you have used the word 'God' here rather then 'Power' while trying to explain that the Almighty is Power and that is why Elohim does not mean God

see my confusion

I do. I'm not sure how to straighten this out.

no, but he does call them his 'beheh' which means 'sons'

No, not really. In the narrative of the prophet or other text (and it is helpful to remember that if it isn't in the Five Books of Moses, God didn't word the book - the prophet writing it did, unless he is reciting "Thus saith the Lord...") if a person is called Benei Elohim, it isn't God calling that person a "son of God."

In Job, for example, the author referred to angels as "beings of power." God didn't call them that.

And Beheh...

You are presenting me with a completely new perspective that i haven't heard before which is why im having a hard time getting my head around it.

Okay.

Also, humans are called both 'sons' and 'children' ... so whats the significance of the angels not being called 'children' (that's why i asked you the difference between the two, because my understanding is that they are the same, perhaps the Hebrew understanding is something different?)

Idiom and context.

I'm not sure what else you are looking for.

 

[Harmonious]

evil is an act...its not a thing, its not tangible, its doesnt exist until someone does something which IS evil.

so how could God have 'created' it?

It is a possibility, permitted to exist in this world, because He gave humans free choice.

 

[Pegg]

That's the point. If God does an evil act, how long does it resonate because of his awesome power?

Similarly, we are made in the image of God, so when we perpetuate evil, how long does it resonate?

The longer it resonates, the more tangiable it becomes.

It can't resonate and become tangible because its not tangible. If i fall over and hit my knee, that is evil... it is not going to linger around me as if its an entity because its not.


in discussing trials brought upon us designed to tempt us to sin, James said
1:13 When under trial, let no one say: “I am being tried by God.” For with evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone"

the evil spoken of in the hebrew scriptures can be translated as anything bad
“I FORM the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil"
The Hebrew word in the above verse is ra‛ and in the following scriptures is used in various ways but they all use the same hebrew word 'ra' but they are certainly not an entity of any kind.

Ge 2:9; "...the knowledge of good and bad"
40:7; "“...For what reason are YOUR faces gloomy today?”
41:3; "...seven other cows ..., ugly in appearance"
Ex 33:4; When the people got to hear this evil word, they began to mourn
De 6:22; kept putting signs and miracles, great and calamitous, upon Egypt
28:35; will strike you with a malignant boil upon both knees and both legs
Pr 23:6; Do not feed yourself with the food of anyone of ungenerous eye
28:22 A man of envious eye is bestirring himself

 

[Pegg]

Here is something I wrote recently.
Do you see a relevant connection to evil?

Bible God does not exist. "God is Love" 1John 4:8 But Bible God endorses slavery, polygamy, genocide, and the murder of Heretics and Homosexuals. Bible God treats women as 2nd class citizens, and he is prejudiced against the handicapped. Bible God intends to burn Billions in Hell for all eternity. This is not love. "God is love" is contradicted by the above mentioned unloving actions. Therefore Bible God does not exist.

BigRed

i think your complaint is actually against the actions of people, not God. polygamy, slavery, murder, prejudices etc... all these are actions carried out by people, not God. And if you actually read the laws of God you'll see that your assumption that he approves or condones all these things is wrong. His laws discouraged them.

So i dont agree with your logical fallacy at all.

 

[Harmonious]

I agree that Jesus sinned numerous times.
For example....
Chronologically, the first commandment by God was at Genesis 1:28.
""God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth""

This commandment is repeated several times in the Bible.....a sure sign that this is important to God. It is one of the 613 Mitzvot. [Commandments]

Yup.

This commandment has been interpreted to obligate a man to marry and attempt to have children.
As far as we know, Jesus never married and never had any children. At least this is the traditional Christian view.
If Jesus never married nor had children he sinned by failing to attempt to be fruitful and multiply.

BigRed
You can ask HARMONIOUS, the resident Jewish scholar, her opinion.
I would be interested to read her opinion.

Well...

You see... In general, I would say that you are right. As far as the gospels are concerned, Jesus is never seen to look for a wife, to be married (which fulfills a LOT of commandments right there, all by itself), and to fulfill the commandment of being fruitful and multiplying.

However... There are a few examples of when that is impossible for a born Jew to fulfill.

That would be if the child is born a Mamzer, or a Halachic *******. This would not be simply a child born out of wedlock, but a child born from incest or adultery.

Mary and Joseph were married. And Jesus was NOT Joseph's biological child. Therefore, Jesus might have been considered a child born of adultery. As such, he was a Mamzer, and it would have been forbidden for him to marry a woman who was born Jewish.

Oddly enough, there are two categories of Jewish women a Mamzer is permitted to marry. One, is a Mamzeret - a woman born in the same forbidden circumstances. Should that be the case, the children of that marriage would not be permitted to marry other born Jews "until the tenth generation."

The other is a woman who was a convert to Judaism.

Jesus could have tried to marry a convert to Judaism. Or he might have been sensitive to the idea that he would not have been able to marry a born Jewish woman.

If THAT were the case, Jesus' whole lackadaisical attitude towards family and the importance of family makes a lot more sense, though it isn't exactly the most flattering light to put on the man...

 

[Pegg]

It is a possibility, permitted to exist in this world, because He gave humans free choice.

but over and over he says that he will remove the wicked from the face of the earth...he will not allow them to exist... so free will and evil acts cannot be mutually exclusive. We cannot have both according to God.

Proverbs 2:21 For the upright are the ones that will reside in the earth, and the blameless are the ones that will be left over in it. 22 As regards the wicked, they will be cut off from the very earth; and as for the treacherous, they will be torn away from it

Pslam 37:20 For the wicked themselves will perish...
They must come to their end. In smoke they must come to their end

Psalm 104:35 The sinners will be finished off from the earth;
And as for the wicked, they will be no longer

 

[Harmonious]

but over and over he says that he will remove the wicked from the face of the earth...he will not allow them to exist... so free will and evil acts cannot be mutually exclusive. We cannot have both according to God.

Well...

God gives people free will. God does not necessarily initiate acts of evil, but the time comes that God allows it to occur. (It isn't with His blessing, you understand, as the people doing the evil are certainly sinning, but God has an intricate score card of justice and how it is allowed to play out in this world.)

 

[Pegg]

Well...

God gives people free will. God does not necessarily initiate acts of evil, but the time comes that God allows it to occur. (It isn't with His blessing, you understand, as the people doing the evil are certainly sinning, but God has an intricate score card of justice and how it is allowed to play out in this world.)

do you believe the time will come when God will not allow evil to occur?

 

[Harmonious]

do you believe the time will come when God will not allow evil to occur?

Eventually.

But I'm not sure how to think about that. Either people will consistently start making the right choice, or God will rescind free will.

I've never been comfortable thinking of that "end of time" scenario, as the prophecies are there, but I don't understand how this concept works based on my belief system.

In other words... Maybe, but I really don't have the vocabulary to discuss it intelligently.

 

[Pegg]

Eventually.

But I'm not sure how to think about that. Either people will consistently start making the right choice, or God will rescind free will.

I've never been comfortable thinking of that "end of time" scenario, as the prophecies are there, but I don't understand how this concept works based on my belief system.

In other words... Maybe, but I really don't have the vocabulary to discuss it intelligently.

thats ok, i was just interested from a jewish perspective because there is so much in the hebrew scriptures about the end of wickedness and wicked people

I dont believe everyone is wicked, i think most people want to do the right thing, but I also think that our world is designed in such a way as to make it difficult to do the right thing....somethings gotta change in terms of how we live


Can i ask you what your view of Daniel 2:44 is... is the kingdom being spoken of real to you?

 

[Harmonious]

thats ok, i was just interested from a jewish perspective because there is so much in the hebrew scriptures about the end of wickedness and wicked people

I dont believe everyone is wicked, i think most people want to do the right thing, but I also think that our world is designed in such a way as to make it difficult to do the right thing....somethings gotta change in terms of how we live


Can i ask you what your view of Daniel 2:44 is... is the kingdom being spoken of real to you?

Yes. It is Israel. Or will be, when the Jews get our act together.

 

[Pegg]

Yes. It is Israel. Or will be, when the Jews get our act together.

does that mean the belief is that a kingdom will rule all the earth from jerusalem?