Can Jewish law be fulfilled?

[fallingblood]

This is a common Christian belief, that Jesus fulfilled Jewish law. But is that even possible? As in, can anyone fulfill Jewish law?

To me, it simply doesn't sound right.

 

[ellenjanuary]

Just because I say it, it doesn't mean it sounds right to me either.

But isn't that the big difference, that to Christians, Jesus is messiah, whereas Jews are still waiting for messiah?

 

[Harmonious]

This is a common Christian belief, that Jesus fulfilled Jewish law. But is that even possible? As in, can anyone fulfill Jewish law?

To me, it simply doesn't sound right.

It doesn't. It isn't possible for someone to fulfill the law, and then it is over and done.

There are commandments that are meant to be done daily. Completing them yesterday does not change a Jew's obligation to do them today. There are weekly commandments, there are monthly commandments, there are annual commandments, and there are once in a life-time commandments.

There are some commandments that men have that women don't have, or that Jews have that non-Jews don't have. Someone who has a higher level of obligation can acquit someone of their obligation if they have an equal or lower level of obligation.

For example: a Jewish man is supposed to recite Kiddush, a benediction that sanctifies the day, on Shabbat. A man who makes it and has other people in mind means that he can fulfill their commandment of hearing Kiddush. But that only works for this round. Kiddush has to be made for Friday night and again on Saturday at lunchtime. One Friday night recitation might clear the obligation for the others joining him for Shabbat dinner, but everyone (Jewish) is obligated to make or hear Kiddush again on Saturday. And, of course, next Shabbat comes with its own set of obligations.

The concept of one man coming to "fulfill the law" such that no one has to do it anymore is not at all Jewish.

 

[fallingblood]

It doesn't. It isn't possible for someone to fulfill the law, and then it is over and done.

There are commandments that are meant to be done daily. Completing them yesterday does not change a Jew's obligation to do them today. There are weekly commandments, there are monthly commandments, there are annual commandments, and there are once in a life-time commandments.

There are some commandments that men have that women don't have, or that Jews have that non-Jews don't have. Someone who has a higher level of obligation can acquit someone of their obligation if they have an equal or lower level of obligation.

For example: a Jewish man is supposed to recite Kiddush, a benediction that sanctifies the day, on Shabbat. A man who makes it and has other people in mind means that he can fulfill their commandment of hearing Kiddush. But that only works for this round. Kiddush has to be made for Friday night and again on Saturday at lunchtime. One Friday night recitation might clear the obligation for the others joining him for Shabbat dinner, but everyone (Jewish) is obligated to make or hear Kiddush again on Saturday. And, of course, next Shabbat comes with its own set of obligations.

The concept of one man coming to "fulfill the law" such that no one has to do it anymore is not at all Jewish.

Thank you. I didn't think one man could, but wasn't 100% sure.

 

[Autodidact]

I don't even know what that's supposed to mean.
"Intentional homicide is against the law."
"Not any more. Someone fulfilled it."

It's like a sentence that is grammatical, but has no meaning, like saying that someone smelled a dream.

 

[Gloone]

Jesus fulfilled the law by living by it instead of using to gain some type of favor or advantage with god. Like people in past generations did a lot. An example is Moses getting the commandments from god then seeing everyone dancing around a statue of a cow and he went into an outrage broke then tablets then killed 1,000s of his own people before going back up to the top of the mountain and rewriting the commandments a second time and bringing them forth to his people. He basically rebelled and went against god’s word then acted as if he had something to establish with his people after killing them. I’m pretty sure that is why it is written somewhere in the bible “thou shalt not turn thy back to god” like he did.

Matthew
17“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

To me practicing and teaching does not mean standing in front of an altar every Sunday and reading from a book and acting like you know something the rest of the world doesn’t.

 

[fallingblood]

Jesus fulfilled the law by living by it instead of using to gain some type of favor or advantage with god.

It is at that point that your credibility falls away as you simply do not understand why Jews follow the law.

 

[Gloone]

It is at that point that your credibility falls away as you simply do not understand why Jews follow the law.

Where is your credibility to dismiss my credibility. I am earnestly waiting for you give me an educated response on why Jewish people follow the law.

 

[Harmonious]

Jesus fulfilled the law by living by it instead of using to gain some type of favor or advantage with god.

To me practicing and teaching does not mean standing in front of an altar every Sunday and reading from a book and acting like you know something the rest of the world doesn’t.

Failingblood was right about this in the other thread as well. But I'll give you my ideas.

You really don't understand the concept of why Jews follow the commandments. It is not a matter of currying favor or seeking advantage with anyone. It is a matter of: God commanded us, and therefore, we do it.

Since God is the Master of the Universe, there is nothing we can really give God, as God owns everything anyway. What we CAN do to show our love is to live as God commanded us to.

There are many facets to the relationship between the Jews and God. As Song of Songs expresses, the love between us can be like that of a husband and wife, but that is a bit esoteric for my understanding.

God is our Father in Heaven. God is our King. God is our Judge. God is many things, and He does many things.

 

[Autodidact]

Jesus fulfilled the law by living by it instead of using to gain some type of favor or advantage with god.

Again, this sentence doesn't read for me. How do you live the law? You either follow it or not. And how would living the law in effect negate it?

Jews follow God's commandment because (they believe) that He's God, He created us, and our job is to do what He says. We have a covenant, which means a sacred deal, with God. We agreed to worship Him (and only Him) and follow His commandments. He agreed to protect us, bless us, and make us a great nation. We keep our end of the deal because we promised to, or our ancestors did, a long time ago.

 

[Gloone]

Again, this sentence doesn't read for me. How do you live the law? You either follow it or not. And how would living the law in effect negate it?

There is no such thing as following a law, you have to actually live and breath it for it to be fulfilled. An example is its easy for someone to say; "I'm sorry for smacking you upside the head. I thought I was doing the right thing but didn't know it would cause you so much harm." The way someone would live or fulfill a law would be for them to never have slapped someone upside the head to begin with. That way no one is hurt and no one has to offer an apology or repent or ask for forgiveness or do w/e it is that your GOD requires or asks of you.

Jews follow God's commandment because (they believe) that He's God, He created us, and our job is to do what He says. We have a covenant, which means a sacred deal, with God. We agreed to worship Him (and only Him) and follow His commandments. He agreed to protect us, bless us, and make us a great nation. We keep our end of the deal because we promised to, or our ancestors did, a long time ago.

Well my understanding of commandments and Oral law is that is it something that is suppose to be spoken and lived not written down on paper an followed. This agrees with the post I made earlier that was given by the man himself, Jesus.

 

[Autodidact]

There is no such thing as following a law,

Say what? There's no such thing as following a law? Like, for example, if you don't rob people, aren't you following the law against robbing people?

you have to actually live and breath it for it to be fulfilled.

I'm sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about. What does it even mean to "fulfill" a law.

An example is its easy for someone to say; "I'm sorry for smacking you upside the head. I thought I was doing the right thing but didn't know it would cause you so much harm." The way someone would live or fulfill a law would be for them to never have slapped someone upside the head to begin with. That way no one is hurt and no one has to offer an apology or repent or ask for forgiveness or do w/e it is that your GOD requires or asks of you.

Of course, Jesus didn't do that, did He? He just threw any laws He didn't want to follow out the window.

Well my understanding of commandments and Oral law is that is it something that is suppose to be spoken and lived not written down on paper an followed. This agrees with the post I made earlier that was given by the man himself, Jesus.

No, it's all just supposed to be followed. That means obeyed.

 

[Harmonious]

Again, this sentence doesn't read for me. How do you live the law? You either follow it or not. And how would living the law in effect negate it?

Jews follow God's commandment because (they believe) that He's God, He created us, and our job is to do what He says. We have a covenant, which means a sacred deal, with God. We agreed to worship Him (and only Him) and follow His commandments. He agreed to protect us, bless us, and make us a great nation. We keep our end of the deal because we promised to, or our ancestors did, a long time ago.

You get it.

:yes:

 

[fallingblood]

I think Autodidact made a great point. I can't live and breath, lets say, the law to not murder and thus fulfill it, and by that regards, other people can murder and it not be a law anymore. It doesn't make sense.

 

[Autodidact]

I think that Christians have a big problem. Well, they have quite a few--this is just one of them. Their religious founders, Jesus and Paul, were Jews, and started out within the framework of Judaism. The religion, for historical reasons, has gone on to become something completely different. But they can't come out and say that, because it was created within Judaism. So they have to come up with some way to reconcile all the contradictions this creates. Does the law of the Tanakh apply to Christians, or not? Well, yes, except when it doesn't. (nowadays it seems to apply only to other people--gay people--and not whenever it might inconvenience the Christian.) So they come up with a nonsense phrase that somehow satisfies them. They can't say Jesus abolished the law, since He says in no uncertain terms He did not. So they say He "fulfilled" it. "Fulfilled" in this sentence means "did something or other so I don't have to follow it any more, without abolishing it."

They have a similar problem with polytheism. From a Jewish point of view, Christianity is obviously a polytheistic religion. But Christians cannot just admit this. For some reason they have to worship 2-3 Gods, and call it one, so they can say they're monotheistic. Again, I think this problem arises because Christianity originated as a variant of Judaism. If its founders had just made it up as a brand new religion, they could have said they have new laws, and worship 2-3 Gods. But they can't.

Because of this historical accident, in my view Christianity is flawed/dishonest/hollow at its core.

 

[Gloone]

Say what? There's no such thing as following a law? Like, for example, if you don't rob people, aren't you following the law against robbing people? I'm sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about. What does it even mean to "fulfill" a law. Of course, Jesus didn't do that, did He? He just threw any laws He didn't want to follow out the window.
No, it's all just supposed to be followed. That means obeyed.

Laws in religion and commandments are a little different than actual laws made by governments.

 

[Autodidact]

Laws in religion and commandments are a little different than actual laws made by governments.

In what way?

 

[Gloone]

I think Autodidact made a great point. I can't live and breath, lets say, the law to not murder and thus fulfill it, and by that regards, other people can murder and it not be a law anymore. It doesn't make sense.

So you give no credit to god and just decide to murder. That doesn't make any sense to me, maybe it makes sense to you.

 

[Autodidact]

So you give no credit to god and just decide to murder. That doesn't make any sense to me, maybe it makes sense to you.

What? What he's saying is, no matter how well I live and breath the law against murder, other people still need to follow that law. How does someone (Jesus) living and breathing the law mean future Christians no longer have to follow it?

 

[Gloone]

What? What he's saying is, no matter how well I live and breath the law against murder, other people still need to follow that law. How does someone (Jesus) living and breathing the law mean future Christians no longer have to follow it?

It doesn't and that isn't what it is saying. Where do you get that from?