Can Jewish law be fulfilled?

[Harmonious]

IV. No murder​

1. "Against any person murdering anyone"​

Negative Mitzvah 289​

Exodus 20:13 "You shall not murder"

​

V. No adultery​

1. "Against [a man] having union with his mother."​

Negative Mitzvah 330​

Leviticus 18:7 "She is your mother, do not act immodestly with her"​

2. "Against [a man] having union with his sister."​

Negative Mitzvah 331​

Leviticus 18:9 "Do not act immodestly...with your sister"​

3. "Against [a man] having union with the wife of his father."​

Negative Mitzvah 332​

Leviticus 18:8 "Do not act immodestly with your father's wife"​

4. "Against [a man] having union with another man's wife."​

Negative Mitzvah 347​

Exodus 20:13 "You shall not commit adultery"​

5. "Against [a man] copulating with a beast."​

Negative Mitzvah 348​

Leviticus 18:23 "Do not act indecently with an animal"​

6. "Against a woman copulating with a beast."​

Negative Mitzvah 349​

Leviticus 18:23 "A woman may not act indecently with an animal"​

7. "Against [a man] lying carnally with a male."​

Negative Mitzvah 350​

Leviticus 18:22 "Do not have a relationship with a male as you would with a woman"​

8. "Against [a man] lying carnally with his father."​

Negative Mitzvah 351​

Leviticus 18:7 "Do not act immodestly with your father"​

9. "Against [a man] lying carnally with his father's brother."​

Negative Mitzvah 352​

Leviticus 18:14 "Do not act immodestly with your father's brother" ​

10. "Against engaging in erotic conduct that may lead to a prohibited union. [That is, petting by persons whose marriage would be illicit.]"​

Negative Mitzvah 353​

Leviticus 18:6 "No person shall approach a close relative and act immodestly" ​

http://www.noachide.org.uk/html/66_commandments.html

 

[Harmonious]

VI. Courts of justice​

1. "To appoint judges and officers in each and every community."​

Positive Mitzvah 176​

Deuteronomy 16:18 "Appoint judges and officers in all your gates"​

2. "To treat the litigants equally before the law."​

Positive Mitzvah 177​

Leviticus 19:15 "With righteousness, judge your neighbor" ​

3. "To inquire diligently into the testimony of a witness."​

Positive Mitzvah 179​

Deuteronomy 13:15 "Then you shall inquire, search, and ask diligently"​

4. "Against the wanton miscarriage of justice by the court."​

Negative Mitzvah 273​

Leviticus 19:15 "You shall do no unrighteousness in judgment" ​

5. "Against the judge accepting a bribe or gift from a litigant."​

Negative Mitzvah 274​

Exodus 23:8 "And you shall take no bribe"​

6. "Against the judge showing marks of honour to but one litigant."​

Negative Mitzvah 275​

Leviticus 19:15 "Nor honor an important person"​

7. "Against the judge acting in fear of a litigant's threats."​

Negative Mitzvah 276​

Deuteronomy 1:17 "You shall not be afraid because of any man" ​

8. "Against the judge, out of compassion, favouring a poor litigant."​

Negative Mitzvah 277​

Exodus 23:3 "You shall not favor a poor man in his cause" ​

9. "Against the judge discriminating against the litigant because he is a sinner."​

Negative Mitzvah 278​

Exodus 23:6 "You shall not pervert the judgment of the needy in his cause" ​

10. "Against the judge, out of softness, putting aside the penalty of a mauler or killer."​

Negative Mitzvah 279​

Deuteronomy 19:21 "And your eye shall not have pity" ​

 

[smokydot]

Eventually.
But I'm not sure how to think about that. Either people will consistently start making the right choice, or God will rescind free will.
I've never been comfortable thinking of that "end of time" scenario, as the prophecies are there, but I don't understand how this concept works based on my belief system.
In other words... Maybe, but I really don't have the vocabulary to discuss it intelligently.

The orthodox Chrisitan "end of time scenario" is quite simple. . .

at the appointed time, when the rebellion (apostasy) has occurred and the man of lawlessness has been revealed, who will oppose God
and exalt himself over everything that is called God,

Jesus will return on the clouds (in the east) in blazing fire with his powerful angels, and with a loud shout (command), with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, Jesus will raise the dead,

those in Christ, both the raised and those who were still living, will "rapture" (rise) together to meet Jesus in the clouds,

then the lawlessless one will be overthrown by the breath of Jesus' mouth, and destroyed by the splendor of his coming.

The orthodox "scenario" is taken from the epistles, and not from symbolic prophecies.

 

[Harmonious]

11. "Against the judge discriminating against a stranger or an orphan."​

Negative Mitzvah 280​

Deuteronomy 24:17 "You shall not pervert the judgment of the stranger or the orphan" ​

12. "Against the judge hearing one litigant in the absence of another."​

Negative Mitzvah 281​

Exodus 23:1 "You shall not raise a false report" ​

13. "Against appointing a judge who lacks knowledge of the Law."​

Negative Mitzvah 284​

Deuteronomy 1:17 "Do not respect persons in judgment" ​

14. "Against incrimination by circumstantial evidence."​

Negative Mitzvah 290​

Exodus 23:7 "And the innocent and righteous you shall not slay"​

15. "Against punishing for a crime committed under duress."​

Negative Mitzvah 294​

Deuteronomy 22:26 "But to the girl you shall do nothing" ​

16. "That the court is to administer the death penalty by the sword [i.e., decapitation]."​

Positive Mitzvah 226​

Exodus 21:20 "[The sin] shall surely be avenged" ​

17. "Against anyone taking the law into his own hands to kill the perpetrator of a capital crime."​

Negative Mitzvah 292​

Numbers 35:12 "The murderer shall not die until he stands before the congregation in judgment"​

18. "To testify in court."​

Positive Mitzvah 178​

Leviticus 5:1 "And he is witness, whether he has seen or known of it" ​

19. "Against testifying falsely."​

Negative Mitzvah 285​

Exodus 20:13 "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor"

VII. No limb of a living animal​

1. "Against eating a limb severed from a living animal, beast, or fowl."​

Negative Mitzvah 182​

Deuteronomy 12:23 "And you may not eat the life with the meat"​

2. "Against eating the flesh of any animal which was torn by a wild beast which, in part, prohibits the eating of such flesh as was torn off an animal while it was still alive."​

Negative Mitzvah 181​

Exodus 22:30 "Neither shall you eat any meat that is torn in the field"​

Source
​

 

[smokydot]

There is no curse. And all you're doing is more sidetracking.

Paul was wrong. Paul was purporting his own theological ideas, and can't even support them all of the time. This is one example of him not being able to support the idea that there is a curse of the law. The law is not a curse.

Even the scripture he is citing opposes what he is saying.

Anyone who has ever tried to live by the law knows what a curse it is. I, like Pilgrim in "Pilgrim's Progress" was very glad to be free of that heavy burden. * He breaks into a verse of "Burdens are Lifted at Calvary. *

So it is a metaphor, the law itself is not a curse but having to keep it is, but then the law was a palliative anyway.

Perhaps you could flesh out your reasoning on this since your conclusion is not obvious to me.

Who's on first, and who's on second here?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Anyone who has ever tried to live by the law knows what a curse it is. I, like Pilgrim in "Pilgrim's Progress" was very glad to be free of that heavy burden.

You once tried to live by "the law?"

I have the distinct impression that you're not a Jew.

 

[Harmonious]

You once tried to live by "the law?"

I have the distinct impression that you're not a Jew.

Angellous, that isn't his line. He's quoting Muffled.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Angellous, that isn't his line. He's quoting Muffled.

Ah, thanks.

There were no quotes.

I don't think that Muffled has ever tried to live by the law, either. haha

 

[smokydot]

Like me, huh?
I can honestly say that anyone who has ever tried to live by the law knows what an absolute blessing it is.
See, it helps to not only KNOW people who live by the law, but to BE someone who lives by Torah law.
And it annoys me to hear people like YOU, who probably never grokked the whole system of belief and law, speak of the way I live my life and God's gift to the Jews as a curse.

The curse is not the law itself. . .

the curse is the inability to attain perfect righteousness through perfect law keeping, which perfect righteousness is necessary to be acceptable to a holy God
who cannot tolerate the defilement of sin (anymore than an operating room can tolerate filth and vermin).

Only through faith In Jesus Christ is perfect righteousness freely received by those who believe in him and in his perfect atoning sacrifice for them.

Considering that you're not Jewish, it was never yours to carry.
And people ask me why the obligations of Jews and non-Jews are different... The simple answer is that non-Jews WOULD find the full complement of commandments that God gave the Jews burdensome.
That is why non-Jews have SEVEN laws to deal with, and Jews have a collective 613 commandments to contend with.

 

[Muffled]

Like me, huh?

I can honestly say that anyone who has ever tried to live by the law knows what an absolute blessing it is.

See, it helps to not only KNOW people who live by the law, but to BE someone who lives by Torah law.

And it annoys me to hear people like YOU, who probably never grokked the whole system of belief and law, speak of the way I live my life and God's gift to the Jews as a curse.

Considering that you're not Jewish, it was never yours to carry.

And people ask me why the obligations of Jews and non-Jews are different... The simple answer is that non-Jews WOULD find the full complement of commandments that God gave the Jews burdensome.

That is why non-Jews have SEVEN laws to deal with, and Jews have a collective 613 commandments to contend with.

You may think it is a blessing to carry 613 burdens (commandments but this must be a short list) but I wouldn't exchange not having to carry any (despite your attribution of seven) for anything.

However that does not mean that the law can't be a blessing to me simply because I don't have to carry it.

On the other hand when looking at the verse it appears to refer to the penalty associated with breaking the law ie hanging on a tree. In Jesus we find one who is innocent of braking any law and yet is hung as a lawbreaker. In this he becomes the the sacrificial lamb without blemish (Who takes away the sins of the world) by taking on the curse that is the result of our sin.

 

[smokydot]

You once tried to live by "the law?"

I have the distinct impression that you're not a Jew.

No, check that one out again. . .the quotes were so scrambled I couldn't even tell who was saying what, and then they were scrambled again in my post. . .I have tried to correct them, but still don't know who said what there, except for me at the bottom.

 

[Harmonious]

In general, I'm not answering you, as a rule. But for this, I'll respond.

The curse is not the law itself. . .

the curse is the inability to attain perfect righteousness through perfect law keeping,

Humanity was never geared to be perfect. And God doesn't expect us to be.

We don't fall short for not being perfect. If we live our lives as justly as we can, we will have done good and made God proud.

which perfect righteousness is necessary to be acceptable to a holy God
who cannot tolerate the defilement of sin (anymore than an operating room can tolerate filth and vermin).

You only say that because Jesus said so.

God was never that cruel.

A person distances himself from God when he sins, true. But a person is complicated, and is fulfilling some laws, even as he's breaking others.

Only Christians (and not even ALL Christians, at that) have this mindset that "if you break ONE law, you are a worthless sinner, never to be redeemed on your own recognizance."

God keeps track of our decisions, our obstacles, our motivations, our efforts, our confusions, and everything else that goes into our actions.

A sin is not a simple matter of black and white. There are a series of complex decisions that goes into making one simple choice. God takes all of these things into account when weighing the merits of what exactly we did.

According to the way you are depicting God, once you make a mistake, you are bad, never to be considered good until someone can come and take away your sin. Frankly, I want nothing to do with an evil dictator of that nature.

God is loving, forgiving, and while He's also exacting, He also gives us the entirety of our lives to right any wrongs we might do and to see the error of our ways.

Only through faith In Jesus Christ is perfect righteousness freely received by those who believe in him and in his perfect atoning sacrifice for them.

As you are free to believe. I believe that is nonsense, but I've already expressed that.

 

[Harmonious]

You may think it is a blessing to carry 613 burdens

It's not a burden, but you know... takes a nation...

(commandments but this must be a short list)

No, it is a complete list. But you are so taken with relief in "not dealing with it" that you don't even know what it encompasses.

but I wouldn't exchange not having to carry any (despite your attribution of seven) for anything.

Then aren't you lucky you aren't a Jew?

Jesus didn't relieve you of that "burden." Simply not being a Jew means you never had to carry the full complement of commandments that God gave to Jews.

However that does not mean that the law can't be a blessing to me simply because I don't have to carry it.

You are right. When Jews follow Torah law, it is a blessing to the world, and YOU didn't have to do anything to be a part of that blessing.

How lucky for you.

On the other hand when looking at the verse it appears to refer to the penalty associated with breaking the law ie hanging on a tree.

There is NO transgression in Jewish law which encompasses crucifixion as a punishment. So, this is absolute nonsense.

In Jesus we find one who is innocent of braking any law

No, he's not.

and yet is hung as a lawbreaker.

By the Romans. Don't pin Jesus' death on the Jews. The "kangaroo court" in which Jesus was supposed to be found guilty is highly suspicious, and I'm not sure that it actually existed as other than bad fiction.

(It helps to know the general behavior of the people who would have comprised the Jewish court at the time, and the entirety of the story involved in what you think of as Jesus' defining moment is so twisted that it is not at all believable except by those who are more interested in wish fulfillment than truth.)

In this he becomes the the sacrificial lamb without blemish (Who takes away the sins of the world) by taking on the curse that is the result of our sin.

In your own heart and mind.

 

[smokydot]

In general, I'm not answering you, as a rule. But for this, I'll respond.Humanity was never geared to be perfect. And God doesn't expect us to be.

So how long must I do penance?

Your notions of God are too human (anthropormorphic). . .he can't change his holy nature which cannot tolerate sin. . .it defiles his presence. . .that is what Leviticus was given to reveal. . .that is why a Savior is necessary.

We don't fall short for not being perfect. If we live our lives as justly as we can, we will have done good and made God proud.
You only say that because Jesus said so.
God was never that cruel.
A person distances himself from God when he sins, true. But a person is complicated, and is fulfilling some laws, even as he's breaking others.
Only Christians (and not even ALL Christians, at that) have this mindset that "if you break ONE law, you are a worthless sinner, never to be redeemed on your own recognizance."
God keeps track of our decisions, our obstacles, our motivations, our efforts, our confusions, and everything else that goes into our actions.
A sin is not a simple matter of black and white. There are a series of complex decisions that goes into making one simple choice. God takes all of these things into account when weighing the merits of what exactly we did.
According to the way you are depicting God, once you make a mistake, you are bad, never to be considered good until someone can come and take away your sin. Frankly, I want nothing to do with an evil dictator of that nature.
God is loving, forgiving, and while He's also exacting, He also gives us the entirety of our lives to right any wrongs we might do and to see the error of our ways.
As you are free to believe. I believe that is nonsense, but I've already expressed that.

 

[Harmonious]

but I wouldn't exchange not having to carry any (despite your attribution of seven) for anything.

Are admitting that you can't be bothered to live a simple moral life? This is too big a burden for you?

Have you even READ the list of seven commandments? And this is too much for you?

Is it that great a burden that you can't refrain from murder? Is it that great a burden that you can't refrain from stealing?

Really?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

So how long must I do penance?

Your notions of God are too human (anthropormorphic). . .he can't change his holy nature which cannot tolerate sin. . .it defiles his presence. . .that is what Leviticus was given to reveal. . .that is why a Savior is necessary.

If you think about this, I suspect that it's not in line with the theology of God's power and holiness. Can God be defiled by sin? If not, how can his presence be defiled by it?

 

[Harmonious]

So how long must I do penance?

It's not a matter of time.

If I can see that you will respond to what I say civilly, and not insult me and lie to me again, then I'll see about changing my mind.

Your notions of God are too human (anthropormorphic). . .

You tell me this, and YOU'RE the one who believes in Jesus as God, or something like that...

Interesting, that.

he can't change his holy nature which cannot tolerate sin. . .

Says YOU. God never said so. Jesus might have.

But I'm sure you can see the theme... I don't believe Jesus was relevant.

And it also helps to understand that even in a verse in the OT that refers to God being intolerant of sin, it also helps to remember that there are plenty of verses that describe how God would rather a sinner turn from his sin than to punish the wicked.

I'm just not sure why you ignore all of the verses that talk about God's willingness to forgive, and only home in on the ones where God mentions His anger.

It is a puzzlement to me.

And then, of course, the only way to get out of the dilemma that Christian philosophy created, you need Jesus to cleanse you of your sins.

But if you paid attention to the Jewish law, scriptures, and philosophy to start with, you would know that you don't need a scapegoat in order to be forgiven.

I would say that the Yom Kippur pagentry is one of the most misunderstood things on the Jewish calendar by non-Jews. Passover is another one that is completely misunderstood...

it defiles his presence. . .

As I said before, it is a matter of select reading on your part.

that is what Leviticus was given to reveal. . .

No. Leviticus (and ALL of Torah law) was given to be a lifestyle to the Jews. We learn it. We live it. We love it.

And we work to make ourselves holy, because God commanded us to be. We're not perfect, but God never expected us to be.

Only Jesus, and maybe Paul, said that the purpose of Torah law was "to show how we all fall short."

If you honestly believe this, then you pretty much believe that the purpose of the entirety of the OT is null and void, except for the parts that you like because you claim that they reference Jesus.

That's very nice. All of the prophets that God sent were one cosmic joke, just to show us how bad we are, so that :

that is why a Savior is necessary.

And I imagine that in your mind, the 3593 years before Jesus died was absolutely worthless, and that God lied to the Jews, just so that your precious savior could come and show us ALL the way, huh?

You know... You either didn't think this one all the way through, or you really are not cognizant of how you are making your belief sound.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Only Jesus, and maybe Paul, said that the purpose of Torah law was "to show how we all fall short."

Paul said that in Romans. Chapter 7 and 8 if I recall correctly.

 

[Harmonious]

Paul said that in Romans. Chapter 7 and 8 if I recall correctly.

See, I told you I had no reason to respect Paul.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

See, I told you I had no reason to respect Paul.

Glad to be of service, lol.