Can Jewish law be fulfilled?

[angellous_evangellous]

I haven't had a Jewish student yet (that I know of), but I tell that it's going to be a lot of fun.:yes:

 

[Harmonious]

I don't think that Muffled has ever tried to live by the law, either. haha

You know...

It puzzles me. Muffled isn't the only Christian here who has told us that living a Torah life is a burden and that it is impossible.

But I'm one of the few people here who actually DOES it on a regular basis.

I've been told that "it is impossible to bring the law into my heart" (Pegg wasn't the first Christian to tell me this.)

I've been told that "it is a burden" (Muffled isn't the first Christian to tell me this.)

But what I haven't seen is a lot of Christians who are so convinced that "the law is a burden" ask Jews who LIVE by the Torah law what we think and feel about what we do.

Now, it is also true that not all Jews live by the Torah law, either. But how many people have asked Jews who DO live by Torah law (i.e. Orthodox Jews) how we feel about what we do instead of telling us that what we do is a burden, and that what we do is unnecessary because "Jesus has relieved us and saved us" from all that?

It's frustrating. But you know... We ARE here to answer questions.

 

[Harmonious]

I've been asked to answer a few questions, so here I go.

Moses spoke to ALL Israel.
Deuteronomy 29:10-15
10"You stand today, all of you, before the LORD your God: your chiefs, your tribes, your elders and your officers, even all the men of Israel,
11your little ones, your wives, and the alien who is within your camps, from the one who chops your wood to the one who draws your water,
12that you may enter into the covenant with the LORD your God, and into His oath which the LORD your God is making with you today,
13in order that He may establish you today as His people and that He may be your God, just as He spoke to you and as He swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
14"Now not with you alone am I making this covenant and this oath,
15but both with those who stand here with us today in the presence of the LORD our God and with those who are not with us here today

Notice verse 15. After listing all possible persons who are Israel, Moses says “both with those who stand here with us today in the presence of the LORD our God and with those who are not with us here today.” So who were not there that day? Answer…Future Generations of Israel.

Moses said….Deuteronomy 30:1-5
1"So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you,
2and you return to the LORD your God and obey Him with all your heart and soul according to all that I command you today, you and your sons,
3then the LORD your God will restore you from captivity, and have compassion on you, and will gather you again from all the peoples where the LORD your God has scattered you.
4"If your outcasts are at the ends of the earth, from there the LORD your God will gather you, and from there He will bring you back.
5"The LORD your God will bring you into the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it; and He will prosper you and multiply you more than your fathers.

Here is the BIG QUESTION….Has this been fulfilled?

No.

Has ALL Israel been gathered up and brought back to the land?

No.

A few of the tribe of Judah have come back. But what about the lost tribes?

I don't know if the lost tribes are coming back, but as it stands, not even all of the people from Judah, Benjamin, and Levi are all back in Israel. (I'm writing here from New York, so obviously I haven't been gathered back to Israel.)

What about all the generations that have died?
It is obvious that this passage has not been fulfilled.
So when Christians claim that the Law has been fulfilled by Jesus, they are not correct.
　
BigRed

I would agree with you on many levels.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

(I'm writing here from New York, so obviously I haven't been gathered back to Israel.)

Won't they give you a free plane ticket (I forget if it's to move there or just visit for a few weeks)?

 

[Harmonious]

Won't they give you a free plane ticket (I forget if it's to move there or just visit for a few weeks)?

I spent a year there learning, but I didn't have the wherewithal to stay.

I imagine that if I made a few different choices, that might not have been the case, but my mother made me promise that (at the tender age of 19) I come back to the States and go to college before I made the choice to live in Israel permanently.

Considering that between my parents and grandparents, they were financially supporting me, and I was not mature enough to make decisions beyond that for myself, it was not the right time.

I'm working on getting back there, when I can be a bit more financially solvent there.

The situation is complicated, but I've set the wheel in motion, only to have it grind to a halt - the Ministry of Immigration (of Israel) wants me to pay back my college loans before I make Aliya.

 

[smokydot]

If you think about this, I suspect that it's not in line with the theology of God's power and holiness. Can God be defiled by sin? If not, how can his presence be defiled by it?

We "come into God's presence" (Ac 2:28). . .it is that presence which is defiled. . .

This is seen in the High Priest not being allowed to enter the presence of the Ark in the Holy of Holies without first being cleansed of sin,
which would defile that presence and he would die. . .

it's like the whole operating area being defiled by any filth or vermin in the area, which could cause the patient to die from infection.

Sin is to the presence of God. . .as infection is to the operating area. . .it defiles the whole area by its own defilement. . .both are defiled.

It is the chief burden of the revelation in Leviticus to show that to come into the holy God's presence defiled by sin is to die.

Sin must first be dealt with in order to come into the holy God's presence. . .and that is the purpose of sacrifice in Leviticus,

which is the prefigure of the NT sacrifice of Jesus Christ which takes away (remits) sin.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

But what I haven't seen is a lot of Christians who are so convinced that "the law is a burden" ask Jews who LIVE by the Torah law what we think and feel about what we do.

As a biblical scholar I can tell you that for Paul, it was a burden. He may have had a teacher that over-emphasized certain aspects of the law - like for example, sex and the roles of women. Paul wanted to follow this closely, fanatically, and probably struggled with lust or homosexuality. Paul found solice in the Jesus movement, and worked out two things (1) that Gentiles and Jews alike had a law and could not fulfill it and (2) that Christianity should be a perfect unity of Jews and Gentiles following the law of love (e.g., the law of the Gentiles).

The whole idea that the law is a burden that is unfulfillable comes from Paul's own obsessions with his failures. It's his intellectual rationale for leaving Judiasm and forming a way to keep the law without punishing himself.

He has a personality like Martin Luther - he just beats himself up like crazy when he makes mistakes.

With all this being said... if Christians are not Jews, we have no place talking with Jews about their relationship to the law. It was a burden for Paul, he found solace in Christ, but that does not mean that it's not a blessing for Jews and Gentiles alike today.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

It is the chief burden of the revelation in Leviticus to show that to come into the holy God's presence defiled by sin is to die.

Sin must first be dealt with in order to come into the holy God's presence. . .and that is the purpose of sacrifice in Leviticus,
which is the prefigure of the NT sacrifice of Jesus Christ which takes away (remits) sin.

So if sin defiles anything, it defiles us. The problem arises when we stand before an undefiled God. But God's presence is still holy.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

The situation is complicated, but I've set the wheel in motion, only to have it grind to a halt - the Ministry of Immigration (of Israel) wants me to pay back my college loans before I make Aliya.

I want to immigrate to Canada, but I just might be in the same boat.

 

[smokydot]

It's not a matter of time.
If I can see that you will respond to what I say civilly, and not insult me and lie to me again,

Okay, Darlin',

You're gonna' have to read this to see that I did not lie to you ---> http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2324431-post805.html

then I'll see about changing my mind.
You tell me this, and YOU'RE the one who believes in Jesus as God, or something like that...
Interesting, that.
Says YOU. God never said so. Jesus might have.
But I'm sure you can see the theme... I don't believe Jesus was relevant.
And it also helps to understand that even in a verse in the OT that refers to God being intolerant of sin, it also helps to remember that there are plenty of verses that describe how God would rather a sinner turn from his sin than to punish the wicked
I'm just not sure why you ignore all of the verses that talk about God's willingness to forgive, and only home in on the ones where God mentions His anger.
It is a puzzlement to me.
And then, of course, the only way to get out of the dilemma that Christian philosophy created, you need Jesus to cleanse you of your sins.
But if you paid attention to the Jewish law, scriptures, and philosophy to start with, you would know that you don't need a scapegoat in order to be forgiven.
I would say that the Yom Kippur pagentry is one of the most misunderstood things on the Jewish calendar by non-Jews. Passover is another one that is completely misunderstood...
As I said before, it is a matter of select reading on your part.
No. Leviticus (and ALL of Torah law) was given to be a lifestyle to the Jews. We learn it. We live it. We love it.
And we work to make ourselves holy, because God commanded us to be. We're not perfect, but God never expected us to be.
Only Jesus, and maybe Paul, said that the purpose of Torah law was "to show how we all fall short."
If you honestly believe this, then you pretty much believe that the purpose of the entirety of the OT is null and void, except for the parts that you like because you claim that they reference Jesus.
That's very nice. All of the prophets that God sent were one cosmic joke, just to show us how bad we are, so that : And I imagine that in your mind, the 3593 years before Jesus died was absolutely worthless, and that God lied to the Jews, just so that your precious savior could come and show us ALL the way, huh?
You know... You either didn't think this one all the way through, or you really are not cognizant of how you are making your belief sound.

 

[BigRed]

The orthodox Chrisitan "end of time scenario" is quite simple. . .

at the appointed time, when the rebellion (apostasy) has occurred and the man of lawlessness has been revealed, who will oppose God
and exalt himself over everything that is called God,

Jesus will return on the clouds (in the east) in blazing fire with his powerful angels, and with a loud shout (command), with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, Jesus will raise the dead,

those in Christ, both the raised and those who were still living, will "rapture" (rise) together to meet Jesus in the clouds,

then the lawlessless one will be overthrown by the breath of Jesus' mouth, and destroyed by the splendor of his coming.

The orthodox "scenario" is taken from the epistles, and not from symbolic prophecies.

The Time has Passed w/o fulfillment.
Mark 13:26 (New American Standard Bible)
"Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory.

Daniel 7:13-14 (New American Standard Bible)
13"I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14"And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.

Daniel 7:16-28(New American Standard Bible)
"I approached one of those who were standing by and began asking him the exact meaning of all this So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of these things:

'These great beasts, which are four in number, are four kings who will arise from the earth.

Thus he said: 'The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it

'But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever.

'Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.'

In Mark's Gospel, Jesus refers to himself as "the son of man who comes in the clouds" to receive the kingdom from the "Ancient of Days", God. [Prophecy of Daniel Chapter 7]
The son of man is supposed to receive the kingdom at the fall of the 4th beast or kingdom. It is widely recognized that studying the beasts leads to the obvious conclusion that the 4th beast is the Roman Empire. [see also revelation chapters 17 and 18]
Well ......the Roman Empire has fallen....Gibbons wrote the book....and the son of man has not received the kingdom. Jesus was a false prophet with an unfulfilled prophecy.

BigRed

"MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?"
Perhaps at the last moment, Jesus realized that he was not who he thought he was.

 

[smokydot]

You know...
It puzzles me. Muffled isn't the only Christian here who has told us that living a Torah life is a burden and that it is impossible.
But I'm one of the few people here who actually DOES it on a regular basis.
I've been told that "it is impossible to bring the law into my heart" (Pegg wasn't the first Christian to tell me this.)
I've been told that "it is a burden" (Muffled isn't the first Christian to tell me this.)
But what I haven't seen is a lot of Christians who are so convinced that "the law is a burden" ask Jews who LIVE by the Torah law what we think and feel about what we do.
Now, it is also true that not all Jews live by the Torah law, either. But how many people have asked Jews who DO live by Torah law (i.e. Orthodox Jews) how we feel about what we do instead of telling us that what we do is a burden, and that what we do is unnecessary because "Jesus has relieved us and saved us" from all that?
It's frustrating. But you know... We ARE here to answer questions.

Well, perhaps the emphasis is wrong. . .the NT problem with the law is its curse. . .not its burden.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

"MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?"
Perhaps at the last moment, Jesus realized that he was not who he thought he was.

That's cute, but you do realize that Jesus was quoting a psalm?

22:1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me, from the words of my groaning?
2 O my God, I cry by day, but you do not answer,
and by night, but I find no rest.
3 Yet you are holy,
enthroned on the praises [1] of Israel.
4 In you our fathers trusted;
they trusted, and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried and were rescued;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by mankind and despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they make mouths at me; they wag their heads;
8 “He trusts in the Lord; let him deliver him;
let him rescue him, for he delights in him!”
9 Yet you are he who took me from the womb;
you made me trust you at my mother's breasts.
10 On you was I cast from my birth,
and from my mother's womb you have been my God.
11 Be not far from me,
for trouble is near,
and there is none to help.
12 Many bulls encompass me;
strong bulls of Bashan surround me;
13 they open wide their mouths at me,
like a ravening and roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint;
my heart is like wax;
it is melted within my breast;
15 my strength is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to my jaws;
you lay me in the dust of death.
16 For dogs encompass me;
a company of evildoers encircles me;
they have pierced my hands and feet [2]—
17 I can count all my bones—
they stare and gloat over me;
18 they divide my garments among them,
and for my clothing they cast lots.
19 But you, O Lord, do not be far off!
O you my help, come quickly to my aid!
20 Deliver my soul from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dog!
21 Save me from the mouth of the lion!
You have rescued [3] me from the horns of the wild oxen!
22 I will tell of your name to my brothers;
in the midst of the congregation I will praise you:
23 You who fear the Lord, praise him!
All you offspring of Jacob, glorify him,
and stand in awe of him, all you offspring of Israel!
24 For he has not despised or abhorred
the affliction of the afflicted,
and he has not hidden his face from him,
but has heard, when he cried to him.
25 From you comes my praise in the great congregation;
my vows I will perform before those who fear him.
26 The afflicted [4] shall eat and be satisfied;
those who seek him shall praise the Lord!
May your hearts live forever!
27 All the ends of the earth shall remember
and turn to the Lord,
and all the families of the nations
shall worship before you.
28 For kingship belongs to the Lord,
and he rules over the nations.
29 All the prosperous of the earth eat and worship;
before him shall bow all who go down to the dust,
even the one who could not keep himself alive.
30 Posterity shall serve him;
it shall be told of the Lord to the coming generation;
31 they shall come and proclaim his righteousness to a people yet unborn,
that he has done it.

 

[BigRed]

Well, perhaps the emphasis is wrong. . .the NT problem with the law is its curse. . .not its burden.

Deuteronomy 30:11-19
11"For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach.

12"It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?'
13"Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?'
14"But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15"See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;

16in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the LORD your God may bless you in the land where you are entering to possess it.
17"But if your heart turns away and you will not obey, but are drawn away and worship other gods and serve them,
18I declare to you today that you shall surely perish. You will not prolong your days in the land where you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess it. 19"I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants.

As it says ...""this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you""

""I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life""
Choosing to follow the Law is a blessing that leads to Life.
The Curse is rejecting the Law.

""So choose life""

BigRed

 

[smokydot]

As a biblical scholar

C'mon, guy. . .you are a scholar of Hebrew, Greek or both. . .but you are not in a theology or divinity program, you are in a humanities program. . .that is not a basis for Biblical scholarship. Let's don't blow it here. . .

takes plI can tell you that for Paul, it was a burden. He may have had a teacher that over-emphasized certain aspects of the law - like for example, sex and the roles of women. Paul wanted to follow this closely, fanatically, and probably struggled with lust or homosexuality. Paul found solice in the Jesus movement,

C'mon, guy. . . the NT reports that Paul was converted by Jesus in a personal appearance of overwhelming power and might which struck him blind (a perfect representation of his spiritual blindness at the time). . .Paul said he was a Christian by the power, revelation and grace of God. . ."solace" is such a weak presentation
of his testimony.

and worked out two things (1) that Gentiles and Jews alike had a law and could not fulfill it and (2) that Christianity should be a perfect unity of Jews and Gentiles

Perfect unity in Christ's Church, the body of Christ, through faith in him.

following the law of love (e.g., the law of the Gentiles).
The whole idea that the law is a burden that is unfulfillable comes from Paul's own obsessions with his failures. It's his intellectual rationale for leaving Judiasm

Now you know that is contrary to the revelation of the NT. . .or do you?

and forming a way to keep the law without punishing himself.

Are you saying that Paul's theology is made up by him and that he didn't get it in personal revelation from Jesus Christ, which is the testimony of the NT?

He has a personality like Martin Luther - he just beats himself up like crazy when he makes mistakes.

You do realize that is conjecture. . .or do you?

With all this being said... if Christians are not Jews, we have no place talking with Jews about their relationship to the law. It was a burden for Paul, he found solace in Christ,

Aw, man. . .that "solace" thing in Christ as an "escape" from the law is so without basis in the NT. . .you do know that is conjecture, don't you?

but that does not mean that it's not a blessing for Jews and Gentiles alike today.

Well, it was nice while it lasted.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

C'mon, guy. . .you are a scholar of Hebrew, Greek or both. . .but you are not in a theology or divinity program, you are in a humanities program. . .that is not a basis for Biblical scholarship. .

It most certainly is, and I am in a divinity school teaching divinity students. My Ph.D. is "Doctor of Philosophy in the Interpretation of the Bible and Early Christian Literature." I have had to master a good deal of biblical scholarship and I am considered a biblical scholar. This subject is within the broader aspect of the humanities - I have degrees in the arts (humanities) rather than sciences.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Smoky,

I thought about addressing your questions one by one, but I think that in this case you can pretty much guess the answer to all of them.... with the important qualification that if I didn't say it, I didn't say it. Do in that case, the answer is a resounding "no."

If I'm not quoting Scripture, I know that I'm not quoting it.

Finally, with respect to the "conjectures," they aren't something pulled out of thin air but are the product of long reflection on the Scriptures and scholarship. I know that you probably don't respect that because you yourself don't see it when you just causually look at the Scriptures or your Sunday School notes.... or perhaps your understanding of inspiration won't allow you to even entertain ideas like this. But it's not an empty conjecture, and just pointing that out or accusing me of that is no better than if it was.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Hey somky....

Imagine me.... teaching seminary students....

muwhahahaha

 

[smokydot]

So if sin defiles anything, it defiles us. The problem arises when we stand before an undefiled God. But God's presence is still holy.

Filth and vermin in the operating area defiles the area by its own defilement. . .both are defiled.

Do you have any basis in the OT Scriptures for sin not defiling the presence of God? Would you please present them so we can examine them?

What you state is not in agreement with Leviticus and the regulations regarding the Holy of Holies. . .but you're correct in a certain sense. . .

you will die before you get a chance to defile his presence if you enter it in sin. . .so in that sense, his presence is never defiled. . .he doesn't allow it.

The point is: sin in the presence of God results in death,

just as it did for the High Priest if he entered the Holy of Holies uncleansed by sacrifice from sin,

and that included any infraction while performing that particular ceremony itself!

And it's better to use the Scriptures as our plumbline and bound for understanding, rather than the parsing of our human reasoning,
which has no plumbline or bounds.

 

[smokydot]

The Time has Passed w/o fulfillment.
Mark 13:26 (New American Standard Bible)
"Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory.

That's pretty much what I indicated.

The following are taken from highly symbolic prophecy, and are not the basis for orthodox understanding of the second coming of Jesus, which comes from the didactics.

Daniel 7:13-14 (New American Standard Bible)
13"I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14"And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.
Daniel 7:16-28(New American Standard Bible)
"I approached one of those who were standing by and began asking him the exact meaning of all this So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of these things:
'These great beasts, which are four in number, are four kings who will arise from the earth.
Thus he said: 'The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it
'But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever.
'Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.'
In Mark's Gospel, Jesus refers to himself as "the son of man who comes in the clouds" to receive the kingdom from the "Ancient of Days", God. [Prophecy of Daniel Chapter 7]
The son of man is supposed to receive the kingdom at the fall of the 4th beast or kingdom. It is widely recognized that studying the beasts leads to the obvious conclusion that the 4th beast is the Roman Empire. [see also revelation chapters 17 and 18]
Well ......the Roman Empire has fallen....Gibbons wrote the book....and the son of man has not received the kingdom. Jesus was a false prophet with an unfulfilled prophecy.
BigRed
"MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?"
Perhaps at the last moment, Jesus realized that he was not who he thought he was.

Oh, no. . .he was forsaken by God for a while. . .it was part of the wrath of God on sin (Jn 3:36) which he took in our place.