Buddhism and Theism

[firedragon]

karma is an order

What do you mean Karma is an order? Do you mean an order as in an organisation? An act of organising? Or is it a different meaning you speak of?

 

[Colt]

Okay. So who said he became the Buddha after he died?

In the sense that Budda became revered after he died. Thats what I mean.

 

[Colt]

Any tom, dick or harry can do cut and pastes just to make an impression.

You said Siddhartha died and became Buddha. Where in the world did you pick that up from?

Mate. You made a grave error. Just own up. It's wrong. And if you are now saying there are no early sources, did you just make that up with no sources whatsoever?

This is absurd. Unbelievably absurd.

WoW! You are very sensitive about the Buddha? A "grave error"? Like blasphemy??? There are depictions of Budda all over the place!

 

[Aupmanyav]

You said Siddhartha died and became Buddha. Where in the world did you pick that up from.

True. The day he realized the middle way, he became a Buddha. The tree under which Buddha got enlightenment, still survives.

In the sense that Budda became revered after he died.

Buddha was revered even in his life-time.

 

[Colt]

True. The day he realized the middle way, he became a Buddha. The tree under which Buddha got enlightenment, still survives. Buddha was revered even in his life-time.

Yes, understood, am I correct in saying that he became even more so after death? That his legacy went on to influence many people in many nations? Like Jesus, the Jesus movement was a small cult inside Judaism and only grew bigger after his death.

 

[firedragon]

WoW! You are very sensitive about the Buddha? A "grave error"? Like blasphemy??? There are depictions of Budda all over the place!

Nope. Not like Blasphemy. A grave error. I mean, an unfounded nonsense about Siddhartha died and becoming Buddha.

I don't think a decent reply from you could be expected after so many responses so just leave it.

 

[LuisDantas]

The Buddha was such in life, of course. It is not a very controversial piece of information.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I believe Buddhadasa is another one of these populist Western monks

Well he was a Thai Monk who lived his life and later passed in Chaiya, Surat Thani , Thailand.

He was a reformist which made him an interesting figure. I never heard of him in the west until I was givin a link to his Handbook for Mankind in another Buddhist forum in 2006.

He maintained the non-theistic nature of Theravada Buddhism , but didn't disparage the fact there were theists who carried with them a belief in God or gods for which such beliefs were not conducent with what he referred to as void mind.

 

[firedragon]

View attachment 64092
In the sense that Budda became revered after he died. Thats what I mean.

True. The day he realized the middle way, he became a Buddha. The tree under which Buddha got enlightenment, still survives.

Aup. You are right. Slight correction though. The day he realised the Madhyama Prathipadha according to his life story was not when he became the Buddha. After going through his paswagathawsan, he left even the teachers and practiced dushkara kriya. Then according to the story he realised it does not work. So he took up the "middle way" as you said, the madhyama prathipadha, and he meditated for some time. So realising the "middle way" was the beginning of his real journey. It is after his meditation which they say was the ana pana sathi bhavana that he attained enlightenment. Buddhi aga or Buddha.

It's not that I believe all of this verbatim. Just that, this is what the story is.

 

[The Hammer]

I take issue with this use of the word secularization.

You seem to be equating theism with religiosity. That is a serious and misguiding mistake.

No, I'm not equating theism and religiousity. Otherwise I'd be discounting people like Salix, of Advaita Vedanta (I know it's Hindu, it's an example).

But, in Asian countries there is a mix of the 3 different schools of Buddhism: Mahayana, Vajrayana, and Theravada. The first two have a reliance on deities, as far as I've learned in my classes on India, Culture, and Buddhism.

The last, and usually non-theistic branch of Theravada, is the only one that really took root in the West.

And now parts of what is religious (like Mindfulness), is being used secularly (mental health offices).

 

[LuisDantas]

No, I'm not equating theism and religiousity. Otherwise I'd be discounting people like Salix, of Advaita Vedanta (I know it's Hindu, it's an example).

But, in Asian countries there is a mix of the 3 different schools of Buddhism: Mahayana, Vajrayana, and Theravada. The first two have a reliance on deities, as far as I've learned in my classes on India, Culture, and Buddhism.

I'm fairly certain that Soto Zen is a part of the Mahayana Vehicle and isn't particularly theistic.

Frankly, even Jodo Shinshu (Pure Land), the most theistic of all forms of Buddhism that I ever met, isn't all that theistic either. But it is very noticeable in Soto Zen.

The last, and usually non-theistic branch of Theravada, is the only one that really took root in the West.

And now parts of what is religious (like Mindfulness), is being used secularly (mental health offices).

Theravada may be more visible in your sample, I suppose. Nonetheless, I am quite surprised by your claim. My experience strongly hints otherwise. It is considerably easier to find Mahayana and Vajrayana. Sometimes a lot easier than I would prefer.

As for Mindfulness, it exists under that name precisely because it is distanced from any particular interest in Buddhism as such. I am just not sure why you expect it to be perceived as a representative of Buddhism instead of as the almost accidental and, indeed, very secular fork that it is. The goal is to reach a wider audience without bringing some of the doctrinary and cultural barriers that might otherwise be there.

 

[crossfire]

No, Buddhism is one of the largest religions in the world without a God. Buddhism grew out of the teachings of Gautama Siddhartha in the 6th century before Christ. Siddhartha had a spiritual philosophy of life which was enormously positive and impactful in India and beyond. After death Siddartha became the Budda, the new focus of hope for subsequent followers and the many interpretations of "Buddhism". As with Christianity things changed considerably after Siddartha was gone.

Buddha means "awakened one." A Buddha is a self-awakened one. Buddhists celebrate Bodhi Day for Buddha's awakening and becoming a self-awakened Buddha while seeing the Morning Star rise during his meditation under the Bodhi tree.

 

[firedragon]

Avidya is ignorance. Mental confusion. The main cause of Dukkha (insatisfaction).

Arguably, the main goal of religious practice is to dissolve and remove it.

Vidhya means science. Avidhya means unscientific. Dukkha does not mean in "insatisfaction". Dukkha comes from Dhuk. Sadness. being unsatisfied is one of the Dhuka's. It's not "The" Dhukka. Dhukka is a plural or a gathering of everything under the umbrella. Samsare bhave Dhuka. That is another Duka. This life, being living in this Samsara is a sadness in this plain. Gihi or the home as we know today is also a duka. Satisfaction is a dhuka. Dissatisfaction if there is such a word is another Dhuka. That is why the Buddha preached the Chathur Aarya Sathya.

The main goal in Buddhism is to drive towards Madhyama Prathipadha. It does not give you satisfaction or take you away from dissatisfaction. It is a void in between. It's not this or that. It's the "Riktha" in between. Neither this or that. That is the whole concept of Madhyama Prathipadha.

 

[JustGeorge]

As for Mindfulness, it exists under that name precisely because it is distanced from any particular interest in Buddhism as such. I am just not sure why you expect it to be perceived as a representative of Buddhism instead of as the almost accidental and, indeed, very secular fork that it is.

Probably because a lot of folks assume the two are one and the same.

Years ago, I attended a Buddhist Path group that was sponsored by a UU church. I checked up to see if they were still in existence after Covid; it appears it has now changed to a 'Mindfulness Minutes' group. Probably to reach a wider audience, like you say. I can feel the several of the guys I used to attend with cringing at this, and I lost any interest in attending again.

Likely, the councils that had made the switch had no idea that this would be a problem for any(I was on some of those councils at some point, so was familiar with the patterns of thinking). Many aren't aware that the mindfulness movement and Buddhism are not the same thing. Some feel they are practicing Buddhism by engaging in mindfulness practices.

There's probably no harm in it. Maybe as years go by, new 'Buddhist' movements will come from it, though it can be a little confusing communicating between Buddhists and those in this new movement.

 

[LuisDantas]

Vidhya means science. Avidhya means unscientific. Dukkha does not mean in "insatisfaction".

Tell me more. How many moons does that world have?

 

[Twilight Hue]

I'm fairly certain that Soto Zen is a part of the Mahayana Vehicle and isn't particularly theistic.

Frankly, even Jodo Shinshu (Pure Land), the most theistic of all forms of Buddhism that I ever met, isn't all that theistic either. But it is very noticeable in Soto Zen.




Theravada may be more visible in your sample, I suppose. Nonetheless, I am quite surprised by your claim. My experience strongly hints otherwise. It is considerably easier to find Mahayana and Vajrayana. Sometimes a lot easier than I would prefer.

As for Mindfulness, it exists under that name precisely because it is distanced from any particular interest in Buddhism as such. I am just not sure why you expect it to be perceived as a representative of Buddhism instead of as the almost accidental and, indeed, very secular fork that it is. The goal is to reach a wider audience without bringing some of the doctrinary and cultural barriers that might otherwise be there.

There are no gods in Soto Zen aside from some metaphors and its definitely Mahayana. Your correct. It was actually one of the first schools I encountered when starting Buddhism.

Pureland is appealing to theists and I think it was a form of Buddhism that catered to people who had trouble letting go of theistic beliefs.

 

[Sand Dancer]

From what it is you currently know and understand about Buddhism; Is it a theistic or non-theistic practice?

Does Buddhism have deities and other spirits, or is it purely a philisophical position?

Original forms are not theistic, but later forms have included celestial beings.

 

[firedragon]

Tell me more. How many moons does that world have?

Vidhya or Dukkha has nothing to do with a moon or any number of moons. So, it's just irrelevant.

 

[firedragon]

I'm fairly certain that Soto Zen is a part of the Mahayana Vehicle and isn't particularly theistic.

Luis. Maha is big or huge. Yana means vehicle. There is no Mahayana Vehicle. It's like saying "Big vehicle vehicle".

Theravada may be more visible in your sample, I suppose. Nonetheless, I am quite surprised by your claim. My experience strongly hints otherwise. It is considerably easier to find Mahayana and Vajrayana. Sometimes a lot easier than I would prefer.

What you must realise is that this Theravada and Mahayana are made up words for political reasons. The Mahayana principles are quite different from the Therawadha, but the root of these things is the papacy like authority of a person or persons and the opposition to that practice. In Therawadha, the typical practice SHOULD BE with no temples and no pujya paksa. But they do practice it. Forgetting what people practice in principle Mahayana is supposed to be about vihara's, lead priests, chanting as worship, invocations, sounds, singing, and having an ultimate goal of becoming a Buddha or Agga Bodhy. Ultimate in intellect. Maybe that's a good translation. In Theravada Buddhism in principle these are all irrelevant. Follow the fundamental of Madhyama Prathipadha, Arya ashatangika Marga, Chathurarya Sathya, etc. You aim to become an arahath. Rahath meaning is actually to mean "vanish". But in the concept of Buddhism this means some has gone past the Sovan position and become arahath which is a higher level of enlightenment and it's basically achieving nivana. There is a story of a boy who hurt his eye and was covering his eye with one hand while paying homage to his teacher monk. The monk got angry and reprimanded him. Then it came to light that he was just covering an eye. After that the monk knew the boy would attain the position of arahath soon and he did. So the idea is, there is no person special or age special. Anyone can become arahath.

So these are the fundamental differences.

This Vajrayana concept is the same as general Zen Buddhism. Vajira means a representative. But they interpret it as a hard or strong person. Like a person you appoint as the president is supposed to be a strong person. In Zen Buddhism their concept is to achieve the Agga Bodhi position which is to have a mind like a diamond where its the hardest substance on earth, and when light goes in, it does not come out but reflects for you to be enlightened by it. Vajrayana means again "Yana" or Vehicle.

Mahayana Buddhism is more famous in some countries. Especially in the west. But that does not mean Therawadha Buddhism is outnumbered so easily. There are millions and millions of Therawadha Buddhists in the world. What one must understand is that the Tipitaka was written by Therawadha Buddhists.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Original forms are not theistic, but later forms have included celestial beings.

I call it, bring your God to the temple day.