Buddhism and Theism

[Aupmanyav]

It's not that I believe all of this verbatim. Just that, this is what the story is.

Will read more about it and thanks for bringing it to attention. I was interested to know when exactly he said that he has attained enlightenment. Under the Bodhi tree? Eagle's point?
Mahayanists also are not really theists. At heart they are apatheists. Of course, in Indonesia, there is no place for anyone else other than monotheists, as per my knowledge.

"The title indicates that unlike most people who are "asleep", a Buddha is understood as having 'woken up' to the true nature of reality and sees the world 'as it is' (yatha-bhutam). A Buddha has achieved liberation (vimutti, Skt - Vimukti), also called Nirvana, which is seen as the extinguishing of the "fires" of desire, hatred, and ignorance, that keep the cycle of suffering and rebirth going."
Gautama Buddha - Wikipedia

 

[PearlSeeker]

I don't know. If Buddhism is not theistic why all the statues, prayers, blessings, shrines, temples etc. Buddha (or Buddhas) is not considered god but he is treated like a deity.

This reminds me of vegetarian "meat". They don't want to eat meat but they eat something that looks and tastes similar to meat.

 

[Colt]

I don't know. If Buddhism is not theistic why all the statues, prayers, blessings, shrines, temples etc. Buddha (or Buddhas) is not considered god but he is treated like a deity.

This reminds me of vegetarian "meat". They don't want to eat meat but they eat something that looks and tastes similar to meat.

It's a tragedy really! A large religion that has so many good qualities, everything except a God. It sails to a safe harbor but runs aground before entering.

 

[syo]

It's theistic. It describes the gods, and the gods are deists.

 

[firedragon]

Will read more about it and thanks for bringing it to attention. I was interested to know when exactly he said that he has attained enlightenment. Under the Bodhi tree? Eagle's point?
Mahayanists also are not really theists. At heart they are apatheists. Of course, in Indonesia, there is no place for anyone else other than monotheists, as per my knowledge.

"The title indicates that unlike most people who are "asleep", a Buddha is understood as having 'woken up' to the true nature of reality and sees the world 'as it is' (yatha-bhutam). A Buddha has achieved liberation (vimutti, Skt - Vimukti), also called Nirvana, which is seen as the extinguishing of the "fires" of desire, hatred, and ignorance, that keep the cycle of suffering and rebirth going."
Gautama Buddha - Wikipedia

Honestly, I don't know about eagles point. Where is that?

But of course as you know the story is that the Buddha was enlightened under the protection of the giant naga raja called muchalinda. The irony is, even the tree they say was called Muchalinda apparently. But, some folklore call it the Shree Maha Bodhi and they say it exists in India and the King Asoka's son Mahinda carried a plant or a child of the tree. They say that he was the evangelist and spread Buddhism to other countries.

I don't know much about Indonesia. But I do know some Indonesians. Some of them are Hindu from Bali and they have different imagery for the exact same God in India, with different names.

Yep. yathabhootham. It's strange you know between Sanskrit and Pali the difference in this word would be the pronunciation. Tham will be pronounced with a agosha type "em" in Sanskrit but as a "Thum" in Pali. Like pronouncing Tummy (stomach). Beautiful. Yes. The Buddha sees things as it should be seen "in reality". Thats what yatha bhootham means. And yes. He did achieve Vimutti which is the Nivan or Nirvana which means when you put out a fire, an escape from Dhukka or sadness and/or suffering of the samsara bhave dhuka. vimutti means emancipation. Freedom. But more like an earned freedom or a freedom fought for. That word is not used for freedom if you are born with freedom. Lets say you are rebelling against the government for freedom it will be called a vimutti chara.

Nirvana or Nivana as you rightly said is an extinguishing of the fire. Surprising. I have not heard that mentioned by others. Let's say you lost money and you are sad. It's a heartache. If something brings you closure, that's a nivana. Well, the exact meaning is putting out a fire.

 

[Aupmanyav]

'Yatha' is 'thus'. 'Bhuh' is to be, to be born, etc. 'Came into existence' - 'abhuvah', 'Swayambhuh' is 'self-arisen'. 'Swayam' is 'self', 'Su-ayam'. Yes, most words in Pali are from Sanskrit and the indigenous language of the area, 'Prakrit' - 'natural'. The Jain language is "prakrit'. IMHO, Pali an Sanskrit are not to far apart. That also shows that by Buddha's time, the Aryan language and people had penetrated all over North India. The South Indian pronunciation differs majorly in two things. A clear dental 't' is converted in a softer 'th', and 'Rri' (ऋ) as in 'RigVeda' or 'Rishi' is pronounced as 'RugVeda' and 'Rushi'.

Yes, Mahinda took a branch of Bodhi tree to Sri Lanka. Of course, Bali Hinduism has developed in its own style and we respect it for what it is.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I don't know. If Buddhism is not theistic why all the statues, prayers, blessings, shrines, temples etc. Buddha (or Buddhas) is not considered god but he is treated like a deity.

This reminds me of vegetarian "meat". They don't want to eat meat but they eat something that looks and tastes similar to meat.

That is for concentration and as a beacon. The same way with Hindu deity idols, and to strengthen the feeling we do consecration (Prana Pratishtha - only in temples and not in household nitches). After that, the idol is considered the living God. Even then, it is 'nimitta' (token, target, reason, motive, indication, sign, etc).

Buddhists do not kill for food (technically), but if someone else does it, then they do not waste it. Buddha accepted non-veg. food. Jains and Vaishnava Hindus will not do that. For them, non-violence is the cardinal principle.

It's a tragedy really! It sails to a safe harbor but runs aground before entering.

It sails merrily even in rough seas without being superstitious or afraid.

 

[firedragon]

'Yatha' is 'thus'. 'Bhuh' is to be, to be born, etc. 'Came into existence' - 'abhuvah', 'Swayambhuh' is 'self-arisen'. 'Swayam' is 'self', 'Su-ayam'. Yes, most words in Pali are from Sanskrit and the indigenous language of the area, 'Prakrit' - 'natural'. The Jain language is "prakrit'. IMHO, Pali an Sanskrit are not to far apart. That also shows that by Buddha's time, the Aryan language and people had penetrated all over North India. The South Indian pronunciation differs majorly in two things. A clear dental 't' is converted in a softer 'th', and 'Rri' (ऋ) as in 'RigVeda' or 'Rishi' is pronounced as 'RugVeda' and 'Rushi'.

Yes, Mahinda took a branch of Bodhi tree to Sri Lanka. Of course, Bali Hinduism has developed in its own style and we respect it for what it is.

You know somehow I feel that Pali and Sanskrit are very different. I think that both of the languages had another root language. But I have not done any scholarly studies on that. Just guessing. For example, in Sanskrit Vairya will be hatred or anger. In Pali, it is "vera". But most languages who were born in Sanskrit will be vairya. Pali is quite different though there are similarities.

Swayambhu. Brother. Bhu in Sanskrit is more like an occurrence. Stable. Grounded. It could be a "arisen" depending on the context. But that's not the base meaning of the word. Like Thushnimbhu.

Anyway in Sanskrit its swayambhu. In Pali it is Sayambhoo'. The "Me" component "Swa" is a general root for many languages, but not Pali. The Swa component in many languages has been taken from Sanskrit. Swayamposha. Swasthi.

Anyway, when you say South Indian language, do you mean something like malayali? I have heard that language. It's very harsh. Compared to Sanskrit that is. I think Hindi and Urdu are more like Sanskrit. But still I like Sanskrit.

Ah yes. Mahinda took a plant to Sri Lanka. But the legends say that he had a ship full of people and he left some people in the countries he went to spreading Buddhism. I don't believe the magical aspects of him suddenly appearing in some hill top etc. But it seems viable that some one like him could have gone to other countries to propagate Buddhism.

But I think I made a mistake. It was not Mahinda who took a plant. It was someone afterwords. It was a lady. Mahinda just spread Buddhism. Now I have lost all the names.

 

[Aupmanyav]

For Tushnim, see this: Tushnim, Tūṣṇīm: 11 definitions
And this: Sanskrit - Dictionary, Sanskrit - Dictionary
That is where the word Santosha (Satisfaction) comes from.
Sure, Prakrit will have words for daily life, but academics and religion depended on Sanskrit. It had a better store of words for that.
'Tushnim-bhu' will be 'become quiet', also I think 'be satisfied'. It is a Sanskrit word.
All Urdu / Hindu verbs are from Sanskrit, Hasna, Rona, Khana, Peena, Sona, Jagna, Gana, etc.

 

[PearlSeeker]

It's a tragedy really! A large religion that has so many good qualities, everything except a God. It sails to a safe harbor but runs aground before entering.

Non-theistic philosophy is possible. But religion? It's contradictory.

 

[crossfire]

Non-theistic philosophy is possible. But religion? It's contradictory.

If religion is the separation of the sacred from the profane, then Buddhism certainly qualifies. (Much moreso than some theistic religions, imo.)

 

[Aupmanyav]

Non-theistic philosophy is possible. But religion? It's contradictory.

Non-theistic philosophies also have rules - Buddhism, Jainism, Hinduism (Advaita, Samkhya, Yoga, Nyaya, Vaisheshika, Purva Mimamsa, etc.)

 

[PearlSeeker]

If religion is the separation of the sacred from the profane, then Buddhism certainly qualifies. (Much moreso than some theistic religions, imo.)

Sacred usually means something that is set aside because of the connection with god(s) or persons/spirits with a divine status.

 

[PearlSeeker]

Non-theistic philosophies also have rules - Buddhism, Jainism, Hinduism (Advaita, Samkhya, Yoga, Nyaya, Vaisheshika, Purva Mimamsa, etc.)

Yes, but if something is just a philosophy (no religion) you have only schools, studying, meditation/reflection, memorials ...

You don't have temples, prayers, altars, support from immortal/postmortal beings with special powers...

 

[PearlSeeker]

Let's look at an example of a Buddhist prayer (author: Geshe Kelsang Gyatso):

O Blessed One, Shakyamuni Buddha,
Precious treasury of compassion,
Bestower of supreme inner peace,

You, who love all beings without exception,
Are the source of happiness and goodness;
And you guide us to the liberating path.

Your body is a wishfulfilling jewel,
Your speech is supreme, purifying nectar,
And your mind is refuge for all living beings.

With folded hands I turn to you,
Supreme unchanging friend,
I request from the depths of my heart:

Please give me the light of your wisdom
To dispel the darkness of my mind
And to heal my mental continuum.

Please nourish me with your goodness,
That I in turn may nourish all beings
With an unceasing banquet of delight.

Through your compassionate intention,
Your blessings and virtuous deeds,
And my strong wish to rely upon you,

May all suffering quickly cease
And all happiness and joy be fulfilled;
And may holy Dharma flourish for evermore.
​

If we replace Buddha with Jesus we can see that it is believed that Buddha can do for you the same things as a Son of God can do. Though Buddha is not called god (or something similar), belief in him is practically the same as theism.

 

[Aupmanyav]

You don't have temples, prayers, altars, support from immortal/postmortal beings with special powers...

Don't we? Who has more? Nobody ever has counted, 2,000 or more deities, could be 5 or 10 thousand. Regions, cities, even villages have their own Gods and Goddeses.
List of Hindu deities - Wikipedia
Rigvedic deities - Wikipedia
List of fertility deities - Wikipedia

If we replace Buddha with Jesus we can see that it is believed that Buddha can do for you the same things as a Son of God can do. Though Buddha is not called god (or something similar), belief in him is practically the same as theism.

The Buddhist is remembering the teacher in his religion, and not a God.

 

[LuisDantas]

Non-theistic philosophy is possible. But religion? It's contradictory.

Hardly. You may be failing to take into account how arbitrary the idea of deity is - and therefore, how vague "theism" is to begin with.

 

[LuisDantas]

Of course, in Indonesia, there is no place for anyone else other than monotheists, as per my knowledge.

Yeah. There is a very serious problem with institutional monotheism, and Indonesia is certainly not spared from it.

The problem being that it is in essence a self-inflicted pressure from the community for its members to encourage and protect lies from its own members about what is ultimately a very personal detail of belief.

That is a terrible, very destructive habit despite being awfully popular in some societies. It creates a lot of dishonesty and establishes it as a supposedly necessary part of common courtesy towards others. Coming directly from that, there are considerable amounts of otherwise avoidable, unnecessary uncertainty and mistrust.

Any society that has convinced itself that it "ought to" believe in monotheism in a collective level is terribly misguided and deserves better.

 

[PearlSeeker]

Don't we? Who has more? Nobody ever has counted, 2,000 or more deities, could be 5 or 10 thousand. Regions, cities, even villages have their own Gods and Goddeses.
List of Hindu deities - Wikipedia
Rigvedic deities - Wikipedia
List of fertility deities - Wikipedia

The Buddhist is remembering the teacher in his religion, and not a God.

Ofcourse you have. I was just saying these are not just philosophical schools. These are religions.

The Buddhist prayer doesn't sound like a remembering of the master. It's a prayer of worship and petition.

 

[PearlSeeker]

The Buddhist is remembering the teacher in his religion, and not a God.

"... not a God." That's true. Buddha is believed to be more than a god. Devatideva—“god above the gods.”

Was Buddha God or Human?