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Bible Discrepancies

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Mister Emu, Oct 4, 2004.

  1. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

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    Concerning the earlier post about Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:24..
    And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

    It looks to me as if it was directly plagiarised from psalms 22:1
    [[To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David.]] My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? [why art thou so] far from helping me, [and from] the words of my roaring?

    Am I correct in this assumption or is there more to it than that?
    Am I missing something?
     
  2. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member It's My Birthday!

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    "Plagiaism" is the wrong term. The Tanach did not originally come complete titles and chapter breaks. It would not be at all unusual for someone to quote the first few words of a psalm as a means of referencing it. Those who were attempting to sell their messianic cult to an initially Jewish audiance contrived the reference as prooftext.
     
  3. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

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    You`re right Deut. it is the wrong term.
    Thanks for pointing towards Psalms.
     
  4. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
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    Two things to point out,

    Exodus 20:5 has a clause, "them that hate me".

    and

    the word translated as iniquity('avon) means both the iniquity and the consequences or punishment of iniquity. I, as I will state everytime, am not a hebraic scholar, so this could be wrong, believe that it might mean that in a lineage that hates the Lord sin(iniquity) will be passed on, but the Lord will not punish you for your father's sin nor will you be punished for your son's sin.
     
  5. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

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    I don`t see how that matters.
    God is visiting the "inequity" of those who "hate" him unto that persons descendents.
    It doesn`t state that the descendents also hate him.

    Original sin is evidence of this.

    Sure it might mean that ..or any number of other things but thats not what it says.

    It doesn`t say the Haters descendents hate also.

    `avon
    aw-vone'
    or oavown (2 Kings 7:9; Psalm 51:5 (7)) {aw-vone'}; from '`avah' (5753); perversity, i.e. (moral) evil:--fault, iniquity, mischeif, punishment (of iniquity), sin.
     
  6. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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  7. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

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  8. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
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    Ok, it does not say that the line hates the Lord, but I will stand by my statement that it can be interpreted differently than the KJV, such as The Message(MSG)

    Exodus 20:5
    Ezekiel 18:20
    I do not believe the Lord changes, I know there is a Bible verse that says something to this effect, I just can't find it.
     
  9. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

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    Emu,

    Your two translations say the same as the KJV with different words.

    There`s not difference in content
    "Jesus loves me..this I know....
    `cause my Bible tells me soooooooooooo"
     
  10. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
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    Well Linwood,

    I was under the impression that you thought there was a contradiction within the Bible based on the KJV using the word iniquity for both passages, and thus in one instance the Lord said iniquity can be passed down and in another He says it doesn't get passed down, for these verses The Message(MSG) corresponds with what I believe, that the two passages refer to two different things.

    I am sorry if I was mistaken.
     
  11. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

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    You were not mistaken I do believe it is a contradiction as you stated.
    I don`t see any signifigant difference between the KJV version and what you posted.

    I don`t doubt thats what you beleive, it is not however what the verses say.

    :)
     
  12. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
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    There is a difference, Sin can be passed on, however you will not be punished for someone else's sin
    And this is what The Message versions says as well.
     
  13. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

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    Are we reading the same verse?

    That appears to say you are punished for your fathers sins..
     
  14. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
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    If you look closely, they are getting punished for the sins "parents pass on to them" meaning(to me) that the sin is being done by the generation that it is being passed on to.
     
  15. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

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    Mr.Emu,

    You almost threw me for a moment.

    When I read the translation of Exodus you posted I did indeed skim over it because truthfully I have read most of the accepted versions of it ..even recently.

    When prompted to "read Closely" I noticed the wording was nothing I`d seen and couldn`t figure where it came from so I re-traced this thread and noticed it is from "The Message" Bible. (I had intitially thought you were refering to the actual "message" of the verse but now I see it is a Bible.

    The message is not a translation of the Bible it is one pastors paraphrasing of the NT.
    He himself states it is paraphrasing and wrote it because.." I kept asking myself, if Isaiah or John were writing what they wrote for these people I am living with, how would they say it?"

    How would they say it in English?

    How does Peterson have a clue as to how they would say it in English considering he doesn`t know who "They" are, "They" didn`t speak English, and "They" are dead hundreds of years dead.

    One mans paraphrasing of a book may very well make a book more readable and lord knows the Bible can use a bit more readability and I offer kudos to Mr.Peterson for doing so .
    But
    There should ne a huge disclaimer on every one of these "interpretations" warning what it really is so as not to mislead anyone.

    The first link below has a link to The Message online, just start reading anywhere and you`ll see the liberties taken with the text are far to liberal to be taken as Biblical verse.

    Petersons Bible is the only one to use this "Pass On to Them" nonsense.
    he`s clearly taking liberties .
    The original Greek no where says anything even close to this.

    It`s amazing to me how Gods word becomes so pliable for a Christian when it suits their purpose but it`s engraved in stone when they deem it to be.
    If thats the best you`ve got Mr.Emu...:banghead3

    The original verse stands as it was written.
    You are indeed punished for the sins of your forefathers for at least 3-4 generations in Exodus 20:5.

    But then it is contradicted in Ezekeil 18:19 and you are not punished for the sins of your forefathers.

    It is a direct contradiction.


    http://beta.biblegateway.com/versions/index.php?action=getVersionInfo&vid=65&lang=2
    http://www.atu2.com/news/connections/peterson/
    http://www.navpress.com/BibleProducts/
     
  16. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

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    The Contradiction of the Day

    The Pentateuch

    The Pentateuch consists of the first five books of the Old Testament.

    Genesis
    Exodus
    Leviticus
    Numbers
    Deuteronomy

    It is commonly accepted by Christians that The Pentateuch was written by Moses.
    This belief is supported by scripture elsewhere in the Bible .
    1 Kings 2:3
    2 Kings 14:6
    2 Kings 21:8
    Ezra 6:18
    Daniel 9:11
    Mark 12:26
    Luke 16:29
    The above verses are just a sampling of the support offered in both the OT & the NT, there are many more.

    However, if Moses were the author of the Pentateuch how could he write this ?
    How could Moses know how old he would be when he died?
    How could Moses know where he was buried?
    How could he know his grave would never be found?
    How could he know his people mourned for 30 days?
    How could he know no other would ever see the face of God?
    Who writes an account of their own funeral?
    How did he know what Joshua commanded the Isrealites?
    Even if he was in heaven and did know all of this, how did he write it all down?

    He was dead.
    Dead people don`t write
     
  17. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    An ignorant misconception is not an internal contradiction. You're stretching ...
     
  18. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

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    Ignorant misconception is what I wish to dispel.
    Yes I`m stretching

    All the above and dozens of other verses show support for Moses writing "The Book of the Law" The Pentateuch.
    However no scripture I can find states that Moses wrote ALL of the Pentetauch, that is where I`m stretching.
    It is generally agreed by Biblical scholars that the books writers are unknown.
    This is not however in agreement with mainstream Christianitys "ignorant misconception."
     
  19. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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    Exodus was specifically given to the tribes of Israel. The verse does not effect anyone outside of the tribes. This law wasn't permanent either. Even the wording "visit the sins unto the forth generation" could suggest a period of time that would come when God would stop the visits. Ezekeil is merely a general statement. To me it doesn't even sound like a law at all but a general statement for all of mankind. The law you stated in Exodus was specifically given to Israel and Ezekeil is a general state of the human race. Because of sin, there is death. The righteousness of the righteous is the knowledge of good, and the wickedness of the wicked is the knowledge of evil.
     
  20. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

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    It doesn`t matter TrueBlood, remember my only purpose with these contradictions is to prove the errancy of the Bible.
    To Christians who hold the Bible as inerrant every word of it is from God and therefore law.

    This contradiction shows them at the very least that God didn`t put forth a perfect work in the Bible.
     
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