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Bible Discrepancies

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Mister Emu, Oct 4, 2004.

  1. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
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    Dangit, why did my thread have to be closed, Oh well, I have gathered all the contradictions I am going to work on for now. Please do not post any more until I am through(and I will inform you all of that time)
     
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  2. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

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    I`m kinda curious as to why it was closed as well.
     
  3. Jaymes

    Jaymes The cake is a lie

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    Insert noise of curiousity here.
     
  4. harold e. rice

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    We are eagerly waiting for your apologetic response to the contradictions that were posted to you. Remember that it only take one to prove you wrong.

    You won’t believe it but there are over 1000 errors and contradictions in the bible from Genesis to Revelation.

     
  5. meogi

    meogi Well-Known Member

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    I wanna know why it was locked as well...

    and how you're doing Emu ;)
     
  6. Michelle

    Michelle We are all related

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    I would like to see the thread whether or not it is closed or not. Would someone please give me a link..pretty please smiles
     
  7. meogi

    meogi Well-Known Member

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  8. Michelle

    Michelle We are all related

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    Thanks Meogi!!

    It's time to move on, time to get going
    What lies ahead, I have no way of knowing
    But under my feet, baby, grass is growing
    It's time to move on, it's time to get going
     
  9. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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    Matthew 27:5 "...and Judas went and hanged himself"
    Acts 1:16-20 "...he burst asunder in the midst."
    The common misunderstood factor is the time element because the Word of God suggests nothing as to the immediacy of Judas' actions in Matthew 27:5, tradition sets the time soon after the betrayal of Jesus Christ and shortly before his crucifixion, however Judas could not have killed himself before the crucifixion. A few days later after the crucifixion and resurrection, eleven apostles were gathered together with Thomas, not Judas, absent according to John 20:24. Thus Judas must have been alive and present. Over 8 days later, in John 20:26-29, all 12 apostles were together to see the risen Christ, confirmed by I Corinthians 15:5. More evidence that Judas was alive and present. On the day of ascension, Acts 1 and I Corinthians 15:7 all 12 apostles again were present, including Judas.

    There is no valid evidence Judas' death happened prior to the ascension. If one closely observes the pronouns in Acts 1, all 12 whom Jesus had chosen were with Jesus at the time of his ascension. However after the ascension, there are indications of Judas' disappearance. In Acts 1:11 the angels refer to the apostles as "men of Galilee". Judas was the only non-Galilean. Therefore another time element. Judas must have left the presence of the other apostles after he witnessed the ascension of the Lord Jesus Christ and before the angels appeared. In Acts 1:13 the 11 men of Galilee were named one by one. Judas Iscariot is not listed. In Acts 1:18 Judas' death is described. In Acts 1:14-26 Judas is replaced by Matthias. Had Judas died before the ascension, certainly Jesus Christ would have chosen a replacement for him but it was Peter who assumed the responsibility. If Judas had died before the ascension and Jesus had not replaced him, Peter would have no reason to assume Judas needed to be replaced. Outside of one difficult verse, Matthew 27:5, there are no gospel records of Judas' death. Not even Luke, the writer of Acts, makes mention in his Gospel of his death. Without the singular Gospel account in Matthew, the record of Judas' death in Acts is clearly a post-ascension incident. This singular Gospel account has been traditinally used to place the death of Judas much earlier than its actual occurrence. Research demonstrates that Matthew 27:5 was not an expression describing his death, but rather shows Judas in tremendous mental anguish.

    The word translated "hanged himself" in the KJV is apanchomai from the Greek word apancho. Only used once in the New Testament. In classical literature it means "to strangle" or "to choke" and is used figuratively to mean to choke with anger or grief. The word apancho is a combination of apo, "away from," and ancho, "to squeeze or embrace." It carries a negative connotation meaning "to squeeze from". "Choking" is a literal "squeezing the life from" whereas "choking with grief" is a figurative as in the English expression "all choked up". This would be correct only to the extent that Judas did not die immediately in Matthew 27, but was extremely grieved over the betrayal. He was carried away by grief and despair. Over a period of time he let this grief consume him until he could no longer tolerate it. This figurative usage is verified in classical writings. Various older Greek manuscripts indicate difficulties others have with the word apancho by their deliberate change of the text to more familiar words like apeuchomai which means "to wish a thing away" [MSS 803, 983, 1415, 1608, 2521, and 2539]. Judas wished he had never betrayed Jesus. Fits with the word "repent" in verse 3. Judas regretted what he had done and tried to turn away from the actions in his mind, to wish his thoughts away. One ancient manuscript has the word apopnigo, which is also used figuratively "to choke with vexation or rage" [MS 273] A related word pnigalion means "nightmare". Another manuscript uses the word apago meaning "to lead away" [MS 827] These variations in the text indicate misunderstanding of apancho followed by deliberate and unwarranted attempts at clarification.

    Judas' response in Matthew 27:5 wasn't so different from Peter's, who upon realizing his weakness in denying the Master, withdrew himself from the people and wept bitterly. Both were emotionally distraught upon realizing their errors but the difference is obvious. Peter was able to overcome his trauma and again follow the Master. Judas continued to let his emotions hold sway in his mind, so that when he saw Jesus Christ ascend, Judas' distraught mind and errational thinking led him to the point that a spirit of suicide possessed his mind. At that point Judas departed for his own property and killed himself.
     
  10. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

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    I`ll check out the possible mistranslation but it makes no sense to me that Judas would have killed himself AFTER Christ ascended.

    What was the purpose?
    He had seen the living Christ and apparently Christ wasn`t any too angry with him or he wouldn`t have been with the apostles
    His act had brought about the salvation of all mans sins.
    Not something most would kill themselves for.

    Judas truly felt great remorse for his betrayal yet you tell me he was given a second chance and decided to kill himself instead of repaying Jesus for his mercy?

    Also if Judas was present with the disciples when Christ arose I find it difficult that no one ever asked him about his betrayal.
    I`d think even if Christ accepted him he`d still have a few choice words for him.
    That was some serious torture and a horrible death he went through..god or not.
    If not Christ then I`m sure peter would have said something about it.
    They couldn`t have been happy with him before Christs resurrection.

    I`m not buying it.

    I`ll check for the mistranslation though.
     
  11. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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    Good luck.
     
  12. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

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  13. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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    Judas could not have killed himself before the crucifixion. Like I said before, a few days later, after the crucifixion and rez, 11 apostles were gathered with Thomas being the absent one according to John 20:24. Then 8 days later, all 12 apostles were together to see the risen Christ in John 20:26-29, confirmed furthermore by I Corinthians 15:5. Even Acts 1 and I Corinthians 15:7 indicate Judas was alive. Acts 1 states all 12 apostles WHOM JESUS HAD CHOSEN were with Jesus at the time of the ascension. Go figure why you ignore all of these accounts but focus on the only record in Matthew 27:5 which says Judas went and hanged himself. Ignorance. But I try not to be ignorant, therefore there is a deeper meaning behind the translation of "hanged". Obviously you are misled by Hollywood and websites. When a person does unpreconceived research, he does not determine beforehand what he will find, research doesn't begin with answers, it looks for the answers. Your simple, cursory reading of a website does not denote study. Its dull how you focus on one verse which "appears" to have Judas kill himself yet ignore the multiple other verses which indicate Judas did not kill himself until after the ascension. If that isn't ignorance, I don't know what is. As for the figurative usage, its verified in the classical writings of Aristophanes, Vespae. You are the only incorrect Mr. Biblical scholar.
     
  14. Michelle

    Michelle We are all related

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    And or a simple contradiction in the bible. Actaully, there are many scholars that feel the account in Matthew is hearsay. The author had no first hand knowledge of his death and made the mistake of writing what he had heard. You do realize that Matthew and Luke were written YEARS after the death of Jesus right?

    Then are some people that think that the author made it up so that another vauge old testament phrophecy would come true.

    Then are some people that think that story in Luke is hearsay. That the bursting story was intended as a methaphor of his spiritual death. I really do not have an opinion other than the obvious ...one of these accounts or perhpas both are wrong and trying to change the meaning of a word to make it fit isn't a valid answer. An omni God would not need your help in his use of words as I am presuming you are trying to prove that the bible is the true word of God and there are no contradictions..but the fact you are even in this postion proves otherwise.
     
  15. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

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    I’m not even talking about when Judas hanged himself.
    I’m talking about the translating of the word apagchomai which translates literally to “hanged to death” when in the context of Matthew 27.

    I thought it was more important that we can agree on the translation before you even continue to discuss the meaning of the scripture.

    I will read the scripture you’ve posted and give credit for any possibility it enables about Judas but I want to clear up this translation problem.
    You claim the translation of apagchomai doesn’t literally mean hanged but is synonymous shame.
    I’ve shown that Thayers Lexicon states the meaning is to be taken at face value.

    Apagchomai does literally mean “hanged”.

    This would mean that Judas did indeed literally hang himself in Potters Field by the neck until dead in the book of Matthew.

    I realize this lexicon is old (1889) so maybe there has been some update in a new Greek-English translator.
    But Thayers is the only one I have access to and considering the age of the Biblical texts I’m not sure it matters.
    Considering the word isn`t used anywhere else in the NT I cannot use a Biblical source for use in context.
    Provide a more valid source than mine and I’ll concede the point.

    Your statement….

    Doesn’t carry much weight with me as far as empirical evidence is concerned.
    The logic breaks down to ..

    1-“Trueblood proclaims a lack of ignorance
    2-“Therefore True blood can’t be ignorant.
    3- “Therefore apagchomai doesn’t mean hanged.

    I will look at the scripture you’ve posted…again.
    If it in any ways implicates a change in the way the Greek correctly translates I’ll concede.
    I just wanted to clarify that the only basis we’re going on so far is your interpretation which is based on faith..Nothing more.

    Again with the personal attack.
    Stick with the subject; give some support for your statements.
    You cannot attack my argument so you choose to attack me.
    A person you know absolutely nothing about other than I can read and have no faith in a god.

    “ I cannot dispute a word you say so obviously you are misled.”

    Isn’t that how the inquisition started?
    It’s a shame the fundamentalist ideology hasn’t change a bit since then

    I’m not going to respond to the rest of the ad hominum in your post..it would take too much time and space.
    I’ll just get to the scripture you claims supports the hanging of Judas as figurative.
    Then I’ll find your reference.

    Just because I see little support in the scripture you’ve cited doesn’t mean I’m wrong.
    You`ll have a difficult time convincing most Christians of your interpretation.

    Jhn 20:24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.

    This verse does give support to the concept that all 12 apostles may live.
    (That wasn’t so hard was it?)

    However the statement “one of the twelve” is how we still think of any one apostle and now they’re all dead.

    It is probably used to refer to one of the original 12 in Jesus` inner circle.
    It in itself isn’t definitive when weighed against the word in the later gospels of Matthew and Luke
    But it is support.

    1Cr 15:5
    And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

    See above..

    1Cr 15:7
    “After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.”

    All this states is that ALL the apostles saw Jesus, it doesn`t support the assertion that Judas still lives.
    If Judas is dead then he is no longer an Apostle who could see Jesus so he wouldn`t be included in any statement made by the living concerning “All of the apostles”.

    Where?
    Acts one says a lot of things but I don`t see where it says Judas was still alive.

    Act 1:11
    “Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”

    The “two men in white” left behind right at the moment of the ascension greeted the apostles present as “Ye men of Galilee”.
    Judas was the only apostle who was not from Galilee wasn’t he?
    If Judas was there he was being snubbed by these two mysterious “men in white”.

    Act 1:13
    “And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James [the son] of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas [the brother] of James.”

    Count how many lived there during Jesus` ascension…11 not twelve.
    Note the Judas mentioned was not Judas Iscariot
    Maybe Judas Iscariot was the only apostle with his own pad
    I dunno.
    I can find no reference to a living Judas Iscariot in Acts 1.
    Maybe I`m just dense could you tell me where acts 1 refers to all twelve apostles in a living state at the time of Christs ascension?

    So you have whatever support the phrase “One of the twelve” spoken of in historical context gives you .

    Which isn’t much considering most Biblical scholars and Christians themselves consider the numbers game you`re using is merely yet another biblical contradiction between multiple authors of the gospels and the Pauline writings.

    I’ll look him up then thanks but I’m not finding much reference to anything but his plays and prose online.
    Can you give me the name of the screenplay if that’s what it is?

    In what context did he use the word?
    Did he always use it in that context?
     
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  16. anders

    anders Well-Known Member

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    No dictionary or translation even hints at a figurative meaning of 'hang'.

    I checked my Greek Bible dictionaries, printed in 1784, 1913, 1950 and 1978. Meanings given are, for example, 'suspend, strangle, hang' and 'hang oneself'. One dictionary, adressing Mt 27:5, adds "death by hanging was generally regarded as ignominious in antiquity".

    Translations into eight languages all use the expected word for 'hang'. So, all scholars agree. Judas hung himself by his neck until he was dead.
     
  17. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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    Think about it for a sec. No other Gospel mentions Judas' death. The only actual description of his death is in Acts. He committed suicide in a fashion common to his times, he impaled himself on a sharp instrument. Very similar to Saul's suicide, Israel's first king. Don't get me wrong, I do agree that "apanchomai" can be used literally. But I also believe it can be used figuratively as well. You suggest that it must only be used literally at all times, why? I mentioned that Aristophanes' writings used a figurative sense of the word. I mentioned that other Greek manuscripts use "apeuchomai"[to wish a thing away], "pnigalion"[a nightmare], "apopnigo"[choke with vexation and rage], each indicating that something terrible must of befallen Judas, like a spiritual force which began to consume him that ultimately led up to his suicide. I believe defining a translation is a process in reading and discussing the meanings of the scripture, something you do not think important. And of course I base my interpretation on faith that the bible contains Words of God and that its important to weed out man's words. Its obvious that there are two completly different accounts of Judas' death in the Bible, thus suggesting a contridiction but with a very simple figurative usage[common in language] the scripture would fit like a hand in a glove. Tell me? An athiest as yourself, why would you be so interested in the Bible to begin with? Do you think you'll discover some new technology or are you just interested in people who believe it contains Words of God
     
  18. Feathers in Hair

    Feathers in Hair World's Tallest Hobbit

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    True Blood, this sounds rather blatantly like a personal attack. Please rethink posting such things in the future.
     
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  19. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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    I will try to tone down my responses. Apology to Lin and the readers.
     
  20. Michelle

    Michelle We are all related

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    You have yet to show any evidence of Aristophanes usage of the word. It would be nice to compare the two usages side by side. A lot of words have multiple meanings and how they are used in a sentance along with the context make it obvious.
     
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