• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Because the Bible said so. . . .

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
You need to reread and try to comprehend. I have nowhere said that I think I've figured out God. Reading Comprehension Skills 101, I suggest you take it.
You need to reread and try to comprehend. I have nowhere said that I think I've figured out God. Reading Comprehension Skills 101, I suggest you take it.




"God is the One who "has it figured out." I simply believe Him."

Yet if you claim to have figured out what God has figured out, you are kind being arrogant enough to claim that you've figured out God. With thousands of different interpretations for what God's 'word' is, you have to be incredibly full of yourself to insist that the way YOU interpret it is the only way that God INTENDED it to be interpreted.

Either you HAVE figured out God enough to know what God wants or you're just guessing.
 
Last edited:

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
But if he kept it to himself, how would you know?
But that objection applies to every character trait whatsoever. If an antisemite, a misogynist, a white racist, or a casteist keeps to himself how would one know? Unclear where you are going with this.
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
But that objection applies to every character trait whatsoever. If an antisemite, a misogynist, a white racist, or a casteist keeps to himself how would one know? Unclear where you are going with this.

Beliefs only matter if acted on.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Beliefs only matter if acted on.
Beliefs are beliefs because they influence how one interacts with the world. They are indeed acted on. I may not have interacted with a given person enough to notice it, but they will influence that person's behavior in some sphere of his life. Maybe with family, maybe how he raises his children, maybe how he votes, maybe what company he keeps etc. His actions will seek to actualize the kind of world he believes in, as my actions will try to actualize the kind of world I believe in. A simple example will be that, in my original example, he will choose to vote for politicians or donate to institutions that are skeptical of science and higher education. He may choose to donate to organizations that participate in intrusive proselytizations in other countries etc. If he has no faith in secular state institutions, he will work with politicians who try to dismantle them and hence create a service vacuum in society where faith organizations step in. Etc.
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
Beliefs are beliefs because they influence how one interacts with the world. They are indeed acted on. I may not have interacted with a given person enough to notice it, but they will influence that person's behavior in some sphere of his life. Maybe with family, maybe how he raises his children, maybe how he votes, maybe what company he keeps etc. His actions will seek to actualize the kind of world he believes in, as my actions will try to actualize the kind of world I believe in. A simple example will be that, in my original example, he will choose to vote for politicians or donate to institutions that are skeptical of science and higher education. He may choose to donate to organizations that participate in intrusive proselytizations in other countries etc. If he has no faith in secular state institutions, he will work with politicians who try to dismantle them and hence create a service vacuum in society where faith organizations step in. Etc.

No one makes decisions based on one belief. Beliefs are weighed in decisions like everything else, mood, facts, possible outcomes. If you are deterministic beliefs have no value, causes only matter. For me beliefs only matter if acted on. I'm fine if you don't believe that.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
No one makes decisions based on one belief. Beliefs are weighed in decisions like everything else, mood, facts, possible outcomes. If you are deterministic beliefs have no value, causes only matter. For me beliefs only matter if acted on. I'm fine if you don't believe that.
Yeah, this is rapidly going into the rabbit hole of consciousness and intentionality. So let's table that dialogue for now. :)
 

arthra

Baha'i
Is it dangerous to believe something just because it is in the Bible?

There's a lot of things in the Bible but I believe it does have inspirational passages that can "speak" to us. We are free I think to appreciate the social and historic context of when certain verses appeared and what their purpose was... We are free to acknowledge that people of an earlier time had a different view of their surroundings ..the political and social realities along with their view of the earth, planets and celestial bodies and therefore some of the words of scripture were crafted for that time and circumstance.
 

Bryan Bridges II

New Member
I think that unbelievers have a more objective perspective of what the Bible says and are therefore the best judges of what its message is. The unbeliever can look at a vague passage and say that it has no clear meaning as the Christians debate among themselves about which of them has the correct interpretation of what is essentially poetry.

The unbeliever can see an example of moral or intellectual failure by the deity and call it that, whereas the believer must sanitize the passage and convert it into something moral or reasonable, or just shrug his shoulders and say that God;s infinite goodness and intelligence transcends our puny minds' ability to understand that what appears monstrous or absurd really isn';t in some inexplicable way.

Ask an unbeliever what the story of Job tells us, and he'll agree with just about every other unbeliever: It is the story of a capricious god unjustly toying with the life of a good man as a demonstration to a demon. That's simply not acceptable to anyone, so the believer adds to the story to make it more palatable. Maybe God was punishing Job for an unstated sin, or training him to be a better person, or whatever one can improvise to justify what is unjustifiable without the ad hoc, just-so explanation.[/QUOTE


There is certainly some truth to your assertion, but it is ultimately untrue. The unbeliever is not able to know the contents of scripture in the same way that a believer is. Your presupposition is that Christianity operates the same way as any other religion, which would be true is Christianity was of this world. But as Jesus said Himself, His kingdom is not of this world. The texts of the Bible are divinely inspired. Thus, those are still a part of this world can not see them for all that they are. Also, I believe Satan blinds people to the truth through lies, deceptions, false religions, fallen cultures, etc. God will also blind people as a punishment.
I can see how an non-Christian could decipher a vague passage when Christians can't. We Christians tend to mysticise or allegorize passages that we feel are empty of meaning. Not that they are empty of meaning. We just feel like they are sometimes. Or we find it too hard to resist the flow of our particular leaning. I find it that I want to see Calvinism in everything, because I am a Calvinist and that is just the way it is.
As for the story of the Job, God did as He pleased. It was exactly as you described, except that God is not capricious, He is not unjust, and He was not toying with Job. Job is a sinner. Like every other sinner, Job did not love the Lord his God, Creator, and sustainer, with all of his being. He did not love his God with perfection. Just like every other sinner, Job never did love his neighbor with perfection. He never forgave with perfection, worshipped with perfection, gave thanks with perfection, or did any other good thing with perfection. Rather, lingering over every good deed Job ever did was the stain of Job's sins, which the God of the Bible cannot and will not accept. Hence comes the cross.
Job was a sinner, and just like every other sinner, including me, Job deserves God's eternal wrath. So the reality is, Job deserved literally none of his blessings. He was not entitled to them just as I am not entitled to my blessings. I don't really understand all the reasons behind what God allowed to happen to Job, but I can accept it knowing that we honestly don't deserve any better, and it was only for a time. Job is reunited with his family right now.
I appreciate that you didn't use your opinion as a blugeon like so many others do; I am not trying to offend or insult you, so I hope nothing I said will cause any undue offense.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
There is certainly some truth to your assertion, but it is ultimately untrue. The unbeliever is not able to know the contents of scripture in the same way that a believer is.

As you know, I think that the unbeliever has the more objective perspective and thus the best understanding of what the words mean. Have you ever seen an apologist trying to convince an unbeliever that the days of creation were not literal days despite each having an evening and morning? What unbeliever would buy that?

Your presupposition is that Christianity operates the same way as any other religion

I made no assumptions. My comment was about how believers and unbelievers differ in their interpretations of scripture, a conclusion I have reached from experience reading the opinions of each. Unbelievers provide more or less the same interpretation, believers are all over the place.

The texts of the Bible are divinely inspired. Thus, those are still a part of this world can not see them for all that they are. Also, I believe Satan blinds people to the truth through lies, deceptions, false religions, fallen cultures, etc. God will also blind people as a punishment.

That's a religious belief that I don't share.

Also, I have good evidence that that is not correct: The extreme range of interpretations that believer offer us for the same issues. If believers were being led to a correct interpretation by a supernatural spirit, their understanding and answers ought to be identical. The only way to account for believers being so much less in step with one another than unbelivers is that they are giving their own opinions, not the Holy Spirit's, and that they are extemporizing in individual ways, something the unbeliever doesn't have any reason to do, and something strongly indicative of a confirmation bias at work.

I also never know what a believer means by "inspired." Why didn't you say authored by God and transcribed verbatim by men? If it means what most people mean when they use the word, then the words of the Bible were not all authored by the deity and only approximate what the deity would have written Himself.

The Flintstones was inspired by the The Honeymooners, but without access to the Honeymooners, you can't know just what aspects of the Flintstones come the developers of the Honeymooners and which were added by the developers of the Flintstones. Did the Honeymooners feature the Flintstone and Rubble families? No. It was the Kramdens and Nortons. Were they two couples, one a large, stocky man with a thin cynical wife and the other, a smaller sidekick with a giggly wife? Yes. Did the Honeymooners live in caves? No. Apartments.

That's what inspired means. Not the same, but related, one serving as the template for the other.

So which parts of the Bible are God's words, and which were added or interpreted by men free to ad lib? I wouldn't be interested in the latter.

As for the story of the Job, God did as He pleased. It was exactly as you described, except that God is not capricious, He is not unjust, and He was not toying with Job.

I judge the character of the god of the Christian Bible by His stated actions. Believers don't judge their god adversely whatever He does. They find a way to make the immoral moral and the absurd rational. That was my point.

Job is a sinner.

Then shouldn't he have been treated like any other sinner? I'm sure that you consider yourself a sinner. Why aren't you treated like Job?

Like every other sinner, Job did not love the Lord his God, Creator, and sustainer, with all of his being. He did not love his God with perfection. Just like every other sinner, Job never did love his neighbor with perfection.

Where did you read that? And how would that justify the treatment we read about?

I appreciate that you didn't use your opinion as a blugeon like so many others do; I am not trying to offend or insult you, so I hope nothing I said will cause any undue offense.

Thank you. You have not offended me. Au contraire. It's been a pleasure discussing this with you.
 

james dixon

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I was given a Bible titled “The Open Bible” when I was 27 years old. I am now 67 years old.

During that time, I spent the first 34 years looking at, reading, discussing the New Testament.

I have spent the remaining six years reading the Old Testament.

I know now why my teachers stuck with the New Testament and not discuss the Old. In the Old the Lord was speaking to one group of people and that group were the Israelites. He wasn’t speaking to me or mine, so why bother reading it.

Well, I read it & it does matter. All of; or most of the statements Jesus said came from the Old Testament. The Old and the New are intertwined and should not be separated; in my view

What do you say?
 
Top