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Featured Bahaullah: Kitab-i-Iqan: “Book of Certitude”

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by paarsurrey, May 9, 2019.

  1. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    I have no idea, Paar. I just read other peoples' views.
     
  2. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    We never believe in the return of individual soul in the body of another person. That would be reincarnation. Moses soul or His individuality was not the soul or individuality of Abraham. It is the Spirit that returns, meaning, the manifestation of the same spiritual quality and powers in a new person. The analogy is that of many mirrors facing the same sun. Mirrors are the Messengers of God, and the Sun being God. Moses, Jesus and other Manifestations are the same spiritual return, who is the Spirit of God. Jesus is called Spirit of God. No need for the 12th imam to have a physical pre existence. It is the Spirit who is preexistence.
    There is a Hadith in Shia sources, which says, in our hadithes, there are Mutishabohat too. Meaning, not everything the imams said are meant to be taken literally. And there is a Hadith from Imam Reza, saying, if God wants to keep a person alive for a long time for the needs of humanity, He would have kept Muhammad alive. Meaning, the idea of keeping any person alive for a long time, is false.


    Here:

    معجم أحاديث الإمام المهدي ع - الكوراني العاملي، الشيخ علي - کتابخانه مدرسه فقاهت

    It is in Shia sources. The Hadith is like this: the Qaim lives for 120 years. He disappears and appears as a 33. years old youth...
    This hadith is fulfilled, because when the Bab was martyred, Bahaullah was 33.


    If you also carefully see other hadithes, you will see that when Shia Imams were speaking of disappearance of Qaim, they meant, His disappearance after the Rise of Qaim, and they meant His imprisonment. They spoke of two disappearances, a short and a longer one. The Shia clergy misunderstood these, thinking these two disappearances are literally the child of 11th Imam, as currently believed among Shia people. But the actual hadithes of imams, talk about two disappearances after the rise of Qaim. One is short, and it is when, the qaim leaves his family and stays in mecca. This is fulfilled by the Bab, as in the beginning he left Persia and stayed in mecca for less than a year or so. The second disappearance according to hadith, is 6 years, and it is the number of years the Qaim is imprisoned. It is also fulfilled by the Bab, as He was imprisoned in 6 years, after He returned from mecca.
     
    #42 InvestigateTruth, May 17, 2019
    Last edited: May 17, 2019
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  3. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    I would offer this is why the Muslim Clergy tried to rid Persia of both the Bab and Baha'u'llah. Also I see it is a core teaching in the Kitab-i-iqan, that it is the message from God that endures over all opposition.

    No matter what argument the Clergy used against the Bab or Baha'u'llah, both the Bab and Baha'u'llah were always able to prove their point by the Koran, any other scriptures, or offer a tradition from any source when required. The impotency of the clergy was always demonstrated against such innate knowledge.

    Though personally I am extremely limited in my ability to offer a reply, a God given certitude pervades my soul that the answer is available. That certainty comes from reading the many stories about these confrontations between the Bab and Baha'u'llah with the Clergy. It is always the defeated that stoop to injustice to ensure they do not relinquish any of their perceived power over the masses.

    Baha'u'llah offered to them, one and all, that all trace of their rejection will vanish along with them, but the Message from the Bab and Baha'u'llah will be celebrated throughout all time. That Message now in its infancy, destined to mature and become world embracing, sees us now at the dawn of celebrating all of God's Messengers in the Oneness of God as a united humanity.

    Well that is my view and it was inspired by reading the 'Summons of the Lord of Hosts'. :) In this work, I see that no Messenger has ever before made it so clear as to what God had offered as Baha'u'llah now has.

    The Summons of the Lord of Hosts | Bahá’í Reference Library

    Peace be upon one and all. Regards Tony
     
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  4. Komori

    Komori Member

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    This has little do with such an issue. The point is that Shaykh Ahmad, Sayyid Kazim, and the Bab all assume the physical existence and later Occultation of the Twelfth Imam, whereas Baha'u'llah denies this and calls their ideas "vain imaginings."
    This doesn't even support your position since the Bab obviously did not live for 120 years.
    The Bab was not imprisoned for 6 years. His entire ministry barely lasted 6 years.
     
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  5. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    "A note: first, I will not comment on the isnads of these ahadith and their reliability,"
    Little general questions about Shia-Twelver-Muslims
    1. Is there a system of Isnad of Hadith in Shias?
    2. How do the Shia-Twelver-Muslims check/ascertain reliability of a Hadith?
    Please
    Regards
     
    #45 paarsurrey, May 18, 2019
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  6. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    This link

    The Four Books - Wikipedia

    This following link is about the 9 Hadith quoted in the Epistle to the Son of the Wolf. They are Akka Traditions (hadith). These are to me very special as I have twice had the bounty of seeing these fulfilled.

    Akka Traditions (hadith) in the Epistle to the Son of the Wolf

    Regards Tony
     
    #46 Tony Bristow-Stagg, May 18, 2019
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  7. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    "I have not examined the entire text for instances of this, but I know that in certain places, Shoghi Effendi has changed the original Persian first-person singular pronouns into first-person plural pronouns in English so that it seems that Baha'u'llah is ascribing to himself a degree of divine majesty." Unquote

    I will check and verify it when I will finish going through Farsi-Iqan. It is tantamount to dishonesty on the part of Shoghi Effendi, if he did so.

    I will appreciate if you elaborate further the points mentioned in your post with examples, please.

    Regards
     
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  8. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    This in no way matters, as Baha'u'llah has explained that the door to the knowledge of God is closed and all knowledge reverts back to knowledge of the Manifestations.

    Also, Shoghi Effendi had the authority to offer what Baha'u'llah was saying in His Message from God. Thus it means what it means.

    Shoghi Effendi most likely knew what was required in the translation to impart to a western mind, the concepts given by Baha'u'llah.

    Regards Tony
     
  9. Komori

    Komori Member

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    1. Of course.
    2. The method of the Shi'ah is very similar to that of the Sunnis, except we differ on which narrators we consider reliable. For example, we consider Abu Hurayrah, Anas bin Malik, and Aisha as unreliable, while the Sunnis take thousands of ahadith on their authority.
     
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  10. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    "the door to the knowledge of God is closed"

    It is a meaningless concept. Nobody can close the door to knowledge of God as nobody has hegemony on God-Allah-YHVH, He can give knowledge to anybody and anytime .
    If Bahaullah said it, it means that he found God's door closed for knowledge for himself (Bahaullah) and his blind-faith followers. Right, please?

    Regards
     
    #50 paarsurrey, May 19, 2019
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  11. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    See it as you wish to paarsurry, this is what God has said in the Temple of the 'Self of God';

    "O Salmán! The door of the knowledge of the Ancient Being hath ever been, and will continue for ever to be, closed in the face of men. No man’s understanding shall ever gain access unto His holy court. As a token of His mercy, however, and as a proof of His loving-kindness, He hath manifested unto men the Day Stars of His divine guidance, the Symbols of His divine unity, and hath ordained the knowledge of these sanctified Beings to be identical with the knowledge of His own Self. Whoso recognizeth them hath recognized God. Whoso hearkeneth to their call, hath hearkened to the Voice of God, and whoso testifieth to the truth of their Revelation, hath testified to the truth of God Himself. Whoso turneth away from them, hath turned away from God, and whoso disbelieveth in them, hath disbelieved in God. Every one of them is the Way of God that connecteth this world with the realms above, and the Standard of His Truth unto every one in the kingdoms of earth and heaven. They are the Manifestations of God amidst men, the evidences of His Truth, and the signs of His glory."

    To reject Baha'u'llah, is to reject Muhammad (peace be upon him) and all the Messengers and reject God from all eternity to all eternity.

    Regards Tony
     
    #51 Tony Bristow-Stagg, May 19, 2019
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  12. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    For obvious reasons the Bab or the others before Him, did not assume physical existence of 12th Imam. God spoke to people in the level of their understanding, so they do not get disturbed. The Shia sect had incorrectly believed for a 1000 years that the Hidden Imam has a physical existence. God did not tell them immediately they are wrong. He gradually made the truth clear to them.


    The Qaim, is in reality an expression for the manifestation of the Will of God, working among mankind to establish the pure Religion. It took 120 years for the Religion of God to be completed. It started by the mission of the Bab, who declared in 1844. Then continued through revelation of Bahaullah, and then Abdulbaha, Shoghi Effendi, and finally the establishment of the Universal House of Justice in year 1963, which marked the completion of Religion. When you count from 1844 to 1963, there are 120 years!
    120 years is not a literal life of the Qaim! We know that now, since it came to pass.
    In different hadithes, life span of Qaim is expressed different ways. In some, the Imams have said 7 years. This is the years the Bab's revelation continued. In some Hadithes They have said 9 years. This is the duration of revelation of the Bab till the beginning of mission of Bahaullah. In another Hadith they have said 19 years. That is from declaration of the Bab till Declaration of Bahaullah. In another Hadith, they have said 40 years. That is, the duration of mission of Bahaullah.
    6 years mentioned in hadithes is not the duration. It is the years the Qaim will be imprisoned in them:
    1845, 1846, 1847, 1848, 1849 and 1850!
     
    #52 InvestigateTruth, May 20, 2019
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  13. Komori

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    I am all for metaphorical interpretation (ta'wil), but this is where I begin to take issue with the Baha'i implementation of it. How is anyone supposed to argue against you when you are making such arguments? It's unfalsifiable. Any claim of the Bab's which you want to explain away, you can just play this card. Use Occam's razor. To any critical observer, it is pretty obvious what the Bab believed.
     
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  14. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    How is it possible that two Revelations so close together can fulfill all these traditions? Some have a outward clear fulfillment, some have the inward spiritual fulfillment and some have a combination. Just like the Akka Hadith quoted above.

    Take any other claiments and see if they can in any way fit into the vast amount of prophecy requirements of all scriptures. Remember Elijah always comes first, so any other claim must have an Elijah and then they must explain fulfilment.

    The Mathimatical probability that it is mere chance is huge.

    Regards Tony
     
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  15. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    It is simple. Because how can the Bab really believed in existence of the 12th Imam as literally son of the 11th Imam, when the Bab claims to be the Qaim? The Bab did NOT say, the 11th Imam had a child who died, and I am his return!
     
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  16. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    Muhammad and Shia Imams have taught how to establish if a Hadith is to be accepted or rejected. Their logic is as follows: since the Quran has all details and everything in it, a true Hadith would have its root in the Quran. Thus if a Hadith has a Quranic evidence that it comes from the Quranic verses, it is to be accepted. If it has no Quranic basis, and is not compatible with the Book of God, it is absurd, and to be rejected. Like the idea of a long living Qaim, is not in the Quran, thus it is absurd from this point of view.
    The idea of checking Hdithes based on their chains of narrators is a man-made idea, and the Imams did not instruct checking the Hadithes in this way. You do not have the signature of the narrators and their written testimony to prove that they indeed were part of the chain.
     
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  17. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    If anybody can have access to knowledge of God, then why did God send Prophets to people to reveal the words of God to them? He would have just given knowledge to anybody at any time, and no need for a Prophet to be between God and ordinary people.
     
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  18. Komori

    Komori Member

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    This is exactly what he said, and I have already provided numerous quotations to this effect. In the Qayyum al-`asma' and the Kitab al-fihrist, he lists off all the Twelve Imams and affirms their existence, and in the Persian Bayan and various other places, he very clearly claims to be the return of Imam al-Mahdi.

    And if we did have such evidence, you would just say that they are obviously forged or that we cannot know for sure that these are authentic, because that is what you Baha'is always do. You do not understand the basics of the science of hadith. Ahadith are not just automatically accepted because they have a chain.
     
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  19. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    I see the Primal point is in reality the return of all Prophets and Messengers.

    If someone was waiting for God to send the tooth fairy before they could except all that God had offered in the past, well I see the Bab would fulfil their expectations.

    Thus the Bab is the fulfillment of all traditions, right or wrong and it is the Message of the Bab that has given the correct interpretation.

    Thus the fellow that needed the tooth fairy when they accept the Bab, in turn recognises the folly of their previous expectations and grows by immersion in the new found truth from God.

    It is man that makes a mokery of what was really from God and God will guide us all if we are looking, but if we are not looking and mock what is from God, then

    40:28 "And a believing man from the family of Pharaoh who concealed his faith said, "Do you kill a man [merely] because he says, 'My Lord is Allah ' while he has brought you clear proofs from your Lord? And if he should be lying, then upon him is [the consequence of] his lie; but if he should be truthful, there will strike you some of what he promises you. Indeed, Allah does not guide one who is a transgressor and a liar."

    Regards Tony
     
  20. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    The Bab confirmed the 12 Shia Imams as the Right path in Islam in Qayoomalasma, and that includes the 12th Imam, being the Son of the 11th Imam, though in a spiritual sense. Let's remember, that according to Hadithes and Quran, Allah had said to the Mother of Mary, that She would have a Son who will be a Prophet. But She gave birth to a girl, instead of a boy. It caused her to question promise of Allah, saying a girl is not a boy. The Shia Imams had referred to this verse of Quran for the case of the 12th Imam, meaning, if Allah promises the Son of 11th Imam be the Qaim, but this does not happen, you must not deny Him, when He appears in the future generations. All these show the Sonship is essentially a spiritual condition, not physical.


    And the Bab did not say, the 12th Imam died! Then how can He be His return? He is speaking metaphorically.

    I would not say such a thing. I have spent significant amount of time searching many Hadithes in Shia and Sunni sources, and personally i have not even seen a false Hadith! It would be very unlikely you can quote a Hadith I tell you it is false! But, most definitely there are many Hadithes if I quote from Shia sources or Sunni, you will tell me it is forgery. Example: Hadithes that the Qaim comes with a new book, new laws, and He appears in year sixty.
     
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