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Featured Bahaullah: Kitab-i-Iqan: “Book of Certitude”

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by paarsurrey, May 9, 2019.

  1. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    "There are many instances where Shoghi Effendi has changed the original Persian first-person singular pronouns into first-person plural pronouns in English"

    For instance I quote one occasion towards the end of the Farsi-Iqan and its translation by Shoghi Effendi:

    "#288:
    وَ اَختِمُ القَولَ بقَولِه تعالى
    We conclude Our argument with His words—exalted is He"

    Regards
     
  2. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Immersion in the Ocean of God's Word
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    This is because Shoghi Effendi fully understood the Message of Baha'u'llah and was given authority to interpret. It is all explained in the Kitab-i-iqan, as to how the Messenger is not God, but can be seen to be God.

    Baha'u'llah has brought The 'Day of God' and explained how the 'Self of God' exists in the Manifestation.

    This is the Message Christ said the people could not yet accept and that the Spirit of Truth would guide us to al Truth. Muhammad, I see, came to return thought back to the oneness of God and correct doctrine that would further blind us.

    Regards Tony
     
  3. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    That's interesting as it explains the overuse of 'we' on these forums, as if one single person 'I' is speaking for all of humanity. At least I know now where it came from. It's a mimicking of Shogi Effendi's style. Thanks for finding it.
     
  4. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    If Bahaullah used the pronoun "I", Shoghi Effendi had no business to use "We" instead of that. It shows that he was not a good and sincere translator.

    Regards
     
    #64 paarsurrey, May 28, 2019
    Last edited: May 28, 2019
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  5. Komori

    Komori Member

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    This is not something Baha'u'llah has brought. It's something he lifted from previous religions. Most of his theophanic rhetoric is taken straight from the sermons and esoteric traditions of Imam Ali, whose eloquence he tries — and fails — to match throughout his writings.
     
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  6. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Immersion in the Ocean of God's Word
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    As that was also used against Muhammad, thus the challenge of the Quran is also applicable.

    Produce verses such as Baha'u'llah has. My guess is they will not have the same result.

    Regards Tony
     
  7. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    As we said before, this does not refute Bahai Faith, because we believe that Shoghi Effendi was appointed by God for interpretations and Translations of whatever He was supposed to do. The Bahai Faith is even a fuller and more complete Revelation that so far God has revealed. Did God appoint a translator for Quran to translate it to other languages? But He did in Bahai faith, because it is a universal Religion, promised in all previous scriptures.
     
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  8. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Isn't it is an immoral act on the part of Shoghi Effendi and unlawful also?

    Regards
     
    #68 paarsurrey, May 30, 2019
    Last edited: May 30, 2019
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  9. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    Not sure what you mean. In Bahai view, God chose Shoghi Effendi to interpret and translate.
     
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  10. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Isn't it immoral on the part of Shoghi Effendi to add words in the translation without giving a clarification in the foot-notes, please?
    Regards
     
  11. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Immersion in the Ocean of God's Word
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    The Covenant;

    First Abdul'baha

    "It is incumbent upon the Aghsán, the Afnán and My Kindred to turn, one and all, their faces towards the Most Mighty Branch. Consider that which We have revealed in Our Most Holy Book: `When the ocean of My presence hath ebbed and the Book of My Revelation is ended, turn your faces toward Him Whom God hath purposed, Who hath branched from this Ancient Root.' The object of this sacred verse is none other except the Most Mighty Branch [`Abdu'l-Bahá]. Thus have We graciously revealed unto you Our potent Will, and I am verily the Gracious, the All-Powerful." -- Bahá'u'lláh, in Kitáb-I-`Ahd

    Then Shoghi Effendi;

    "O ye the faithful loved ones of `Abdu'l-Bahá! It is incumbent upon you to take the greatest care of Shoghi Effendi, the twig that hath branched from and the fruit given forth by the two hallowed and Divine Lote-Trees, that no dust of despondency and sorrow may stain his radiant nature, that day by day he may wax greater in happiness, in joy and spirituality, and may grow to become even as a fruitful tree.

    For he is, after `Abdu'l-Bahá, the guardian of the Cause of God, the Afnán, the Hands (pillars) of the Cause and the beloved of the Lord must obey him and turn unto him. He that obeyeth him not, hath not obeyed God; he that turneth away from him, hath turned away, hath turned away from God and he that denieth him, hath denied the True One. Beware lest anyone falsely interpret these words, and like unto them that have broken the Covenant after the Day of Ascension (of Bahá'u'lláh) advance a pretext, raise the standard of revolt, wax stubborn and open wide the door of false interpretation. To none is given the right to put forth his own opinion or express his particular convictions. All must seek guidance and turn unto the Center of the Cause and the House of Justice. And he that turneth unto whatsoever else is indeed in grievous error.

    "The Glory of Glories rest upon you!"

    Many more passages available. It is a strong and unmistakable covenant

    Regards Tony
     
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  12. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Can you please help me track down the followings?:

    1.74*:“Nothing whatsoever keepeth Him from being occupied with any other thing”

    2.75:“The names come down from heaven”
    3.76:“Cling unto the robe of the Desire of thy heart, and put thou away all shame; bid the worldly wise be gone, however great their name.”
    4.77: “He that treadeth the snow-white Path, and followeth in the footsteps of the Crimson Pillar, shall never attain unto his abode unless his hands are empty of those worldly things cherished by men.”
    5.80:“But for Thee, I would not have created all that are in heaven and on earth”
    6.86: That holy man, Sádiq,62 in his eulogy of the Cherubim, saith: “There stand a company of our fellow-Shí‘ihs behind the Throne.” Divers and manifold are the interpretations of the words “behind the Throne.” In one sense, they indicate that no true Shí‘ihs exist. Even as he hath said in another passage: “A true believer is likened unto the philosopher’s stone.” Addressing subsequently his listener, he saith: “Hast thou ever seen the philosopher’s stone?” Reflect, how this symbolic language, more eloquent than any speech, however direct, testifieth to the nonexistence of a true believer. Such is the testimony of Sádiq.
    7.92: “I adjure thee by God Who clove the sea for you, caused manna to descend upon you, and the cloud to overshadow you, Who delivered you from Pharaoh and his people, and exalted you above all human beings, to tell us what Moses hath decreed concerning adultery between a married man and a married woman.”

    8.98: “Daystar of the beauty of Jesus had disappeared from the sight of His people, and ascended unto the fourth heaven.”
    شمس جمال عيسى از
    ميان قوم غائب شد و به فلک چهارم ارتقاء فرمود و کتاب حقّ
    جلّ ذکره که اعظم برهان اوست ميان خلق او، آن هم غائب
    شود
    Bahaullah has used the word "Shams" in Farsi-Iqan, Shoghi has translated it as "Daystar" instead of the common word "Sun"in English.
    Any particular reason for that?

    Regards
    _____________
    *It is the passage number
     
  13. Komori

    Komori Member

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    Before we even think of such a thing, it is on you to show that Baha'u'llah's writings even come to close to the level of the Qur'an. And there's no way you could even be the judge of such a thing since you don't know Arabic or Persian. You can only read his writings in the highly embellished translation where Shoghi and later translators have tried to mimic the Early Modern English style of Shakespeare and the King James Bible.

    Embellishment, as I've said. He's trying to make Baha'u'llah seem more eloquent than he actually is. Sometimes he translates it as 'effulgence.' I will get back to you when I've looked into those quotes.
     
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  14. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Immersion in the Ocean of God's Word
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    That would reject all the first beleivers that were some of the most famous divines of the Muslim era. Many, many many in fact.

    They all saw they could not meet that challenge. Who am I to say they were mistaken, after all they willingly died for their Faith in Baha'u'llah as He who was promised by Allah and All doeth as He willeth

    This is no weak faith.

    Regards Tony
     
  15. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Immersion in the Ocean of God's Word
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    Or some are trying to make Shoghi Effendi more inept than he was. He was very brilliant from what I have found.

    Regards Tony
     
    #75 Tony Bristow-Stagg, May 30, 2019
    Last edited: May 30, 2019
  16. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Immersion in the Ocean of God's Word
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    Now what needs to be considered is that Baha'ullah revealed these works day and night without refering to, or needing to find references. :)

    Also many Muslim Divines of His day also tried to find error in those quotes. What they found is that Baha'u'llah had quoted from a source they had never heard of. I hope you can now start to understand why they then tried to get rid of Baha'u'llah and Hos Message. Some of the accusations as to why Baha'u'llah was able to produce incontestable writings are amusing. They just did not like being faced with innate knowledge

    As I said above;

    "As that was also used against Muhammad, thus the challenge of the Quran is also applicable.

    Produce verses such as Baha'u'llah has. My guess is they will not have the same result."

    Regards Tony
     
  17. Komori

    Komori Member

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    Which "famous divines" believed in Baha'u'llah? Many Shi'i scholars believed in the Bab, but most of these were martyred during the various Babi rebellions, and I am unaware of any such people who believed in Baha'u'llah

    No one here is calling Shoghi Effendi an idiot. It is his integrity as a translator which is being put to question.

    Let's assume he never consulted books when writing his works. The fact that Baha'u'llah memorized a bunch of Qur'anic verses and ahadith is not evidence of prophethood or any kind of innate knowledge, especially when a lot of his quotes are actually just paraphrases. Tons of Muslims have memorized the entire Qur'an and even more have memorized a fair portion of it and the hadith. The Qur'an is actually very easy to memorize, and all practicing Muslims memorize portions of it for salah. Baha'u'llah came from a noble family, so the fact that he would have had a very good Islamic education is a given. This would naturally include studying and memorizing the Qur'an and the hadith. It is absolutely inconceivable that he would've been an unlettered man like Muhammad as some Baha'is like to pretend.

    What result are you looking for? Influence? Any book you'd read in school would surpass the writings of Baha'u'llah in this regard and even in terms of sheer eloquence.
     
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  18. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    I request to highlight in your reply the text of original-Arabic Hadith and its reference if possible, please.

    Regards
     
  19. Komori

    Komori Member

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    1. I'm not sure this is a hadith, but it is in a bunch of books if you search for it, notably al-Razi's tafsir and al-Ghazali's Ihiya. Seems to be another Sufi maxim.

    2. This does not seem to be a hadith either, but it is a saying found in various books, notably in Ali al-Qari's commentary on Mishkat al-Masabih.

    3. This is from a poem by Ibn al-Farid, not a hadith.

    4. This is another Sufi saying, not a hadith. It is supposedly from the Bisharat al-Khayrat, according to the book A Tutorial on the Kitab-i-Iqan.

    5. This is the famous حديث لولاك (hadith lawlak). It is cited often in esoteric Shi'i writings, but its authenticity is disputed by the more orthodox camp, and especially by the Sunnis.

    6. The hadith on the cherubim is from Bihar al-Anwar, vol. 14, p. 229. The saying on the philosopher's stone is found in The Seven Proofs by the Bab, which is probably where Baha'u'llah got this, but I am not sure where the Bab got it from.

    7. Not sure where this comes from.

    8. Baha'u'llah's not quoting anything here. He's just referencing an idea he claims to have heard.

    So it seems most of these aren't even ahadith.
     
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  20. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Thanks and regards
     
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