Bahai position/methodology on Hadith

[InvestigateTruth]

Hmm. Ive read this. But not this particular version. Nevertheless, you should note that he is eternally referring to the ahadith ahlul baith. Not the ahadith assahabah, or even the ahadith arrasool wassahabah. He quotes 5th century hijri ahadith but is validating them based on the Shii methodology of al wahiyul ilaaheeyu.

It seems like you have not read your own book mate. But, thanks for engaging. I have learned a lot.

My understanding is When the Bab talks about Hadith He means a Hadith as defined by Quran. Whatever Quran means by the term Hadith.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I can assure @firedragon that Bahai that can not read Persian, do not have this extent of knowledge, as we are unable to read the unpublished works.

I learnt early on that the knowledge about this Faith is limited by our lack of understanding of Persian and Arabic.

So @InvestigateTruth I guess what is being offered here is, that God does allow both Truth and Error to be revealed in Hadiths.

Truth being that a Hadith that reflects Truth is dependant upon the heart that reveals it and the further the heart from the source of the Quran, the darker the Hadith becomes.

Then what you would be saying is that we look for the Light, no matter where it shines from?

It would be good to see some translations of the Bab's works you have offered. The future will be great!

In the end the Hadith leads the hearts to their true innermost desires.

Regards Tony

So far, I have not read in the Bahai Writings that a certain group of Muslims were engaged in inventing Hadithes. And as far as I am aware, there is no such history in Islam that, a great number of Muslims were inventing Hadithes. So I mean, in my understanding, Bahai writings does not give such an idea that Hadithes are generally unreliable.

 

[firedragon]

I can assure @firedragon that Bahai that can not read Persian, do not have this extent of knowledge, as we are unable to read the unpublished works.

I learnt early on that the knowledge about this Faith is limited by our lack of understanding of Persian and Arabic.

So @InvestigateTruth I guess what is being offered here is, that God does allow both Truth and Error to be revealed in Hadiths.

Truth being that a Hadith that reflects Truth is dependant upon the heart that reveals it and the further the heart from the source of the Quran, the darker the Hadith becomes.

Then what you would be saying is that we look for the Light, no matter where it shines from?

It would be good to see some translations of the Bab's works you have offered. The future will be great!

In the end the Hadith leads the hearts to their true innermost desires.

Regards Tony

1. Brother. I can read some of the Persian text, but I have no knowledge on it. Thus, I can never make commentary.
2. I definitely agree that the heart that reveals the hadith is absolutely fundamental to its validity. But they are way to far gone, so there has to be another methodology. I know you know this better, and definitely there is no quarrel on that.
3. I do agree that the light is better to look at rather than where it comes from. But since this is extra Qur'anic narratives, the source is fundamentally important. Since obviously, theologically, it is not God.
4. I dont know what translations of the Babs work you refer to. I do not wish to disrespect any translation of your faith my friend. So if you elaborate on this, I will definitely respond. Especially since this is an objective question.

 

[firedragon]

Interesting. I tend towards the fact that God guides our hearts, thus Hadith appear to appeal to both the capacities of our heart and our inherent nature that turns us away from that capacity.

I would not think those 2 x Hadith about women were born of the full light of God, but that is only my opinion of the Light reflected in those 2 quoted Hadiths.

Regards Tony

I gave two examples since I was asked. I have not received responses to them yet. But you must understand that I gave just two examples because I was asked. I did not open this thread to really install any kind of doctrine in the hears of the Bahai's. I wanted to understand the official position of the Bahai's, but the gentleman I am addressing is predominantly giving arbitrary and personal ideas.

The two stories I gave clearly demonstrate distinction from the Quranic statements but are attributed to the prophet himself, and are deemed to be his own narratives. Thus, the premise the gentleman provided is challenged by them. Hope you understand.

 

[firedragon]

Also, some Hadithes are Mutishabihat

Thats bogus. When people make things up, I intend to stop discussing with them.

Thanks for showing your personal stand, have a good day.

Cheers.

 

[firedragon]

My understanding is When the Bab talks about Hadith He means a Hadith as defined by Quran. Whatever Quran means by the term Hadith.

You have never even read your own sources. So you are just making things up, of course. You are WRONG.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Thats bogus. When people make things up, I intend to stop discussing with them.

Thanks for showing your personal stand, have a good day.

Cheers.

It is not bogus. That is what Imams of Shia have said. They have said in Hadithes, there are Mutishabihat too. But I understand since you are not a Shia, or Bahai, there is no reason for you to accept it.

 

[firedragon]

It is not bogus.

Absolutely bogus.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You have never even read your own sources. So you are just making things up, of course. You are WRONG.

Maybe I am wrong. But feel free to quote why you think I am wrong. What did the Bab said that you think otherwise?

 

[firedragon]

Maybe I am wrong. But feel free to quote why you think I am wrong. What did the Bab said that you think otherwise?

I have given more than you know, because you are not even reading his book. I would suggest that you read your own sources first. And dont make things up about other peoples sources. Try your best.

 

[firedragon]

Maybe I am wrong. But feel free to quote why you think I am wrong. What did the Bab said that you think otherwise?

Can you show me the exact passage that the Bab speaks about "Muthashabihath al ahadith"? Thats what you said. Since you spoke of Shii doctrine on it which is irrelevant since the question is about the Bahai position, and since you ask about the Bab's words, please simply quote directly so that you can redeem your bogus claims. At least this particular one.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Can you show me the exact passage that the Bab speaks about "Muthashabihath al ahadith"? Thats what you said. Since you spoke of Shii doctrine on it which is irrelevant since the question is about the Bahai position, and since you ask about the Bab's words, please simply quote directly so that you can redeem your bogus claims. At least this particular one.

No, I said I read that in Shia Hadith collections.

 

[firedragon]

No, I said I read that in Shia Hadith collections.

Its not relevant., But still, quote directly from what you say is "Shii hadith collections" about their dogma about "Muthashabihat al ahadith".

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So far, I have not read in the Bahai Writings that a certain group of Muslims were engaged in inventing Hadithes. And as far as I am aware, there is no such history in Islam that, a great number of Muslims were inventing Hadithes. So I mean, in my understanding, Bahai writings does not give such an idea that Hadithes are generally unreliable.

I have to clarify, I am not offering invented Hadiths, just Hadith that lean more towards a personal understanding of what was said, much like pilgrim notes.

Regards Tony

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I have to clarify, I am not offering invented Hadiths, just Hadith that lean more towards a personal understanding of what was said, much like pilgrim notes.

Regards Tony

I think this idea of corruption In Hadithes or inventing false Hadithes, comes from conflicts between Shia and Sunnis. From early Islam the two sects accused each other sources being false. The Shias accused the Sunni narrators of being liars, and likewise the Sunnis accused the Shia sources of being inventions.
But, in Bahai faith, I have never come across any of the Writings, saying this Hadith is false or that Hadith is wrong.
I have seen Bahaullah quoting Hadithes from the Sunni sources as well.
@firedragon, we Bahais don't take side on the Sunni and Shia conflicts. The Bab and Bahaullah appeared in Iran, when it was a Shia majority country. So, to communicate with them, they used Hadithes that they are more familiar with, or had already accepted it. But we believe that after Muhammad, there were 11 successors who were chosen by God. In this sense, we also consider their Hadithes as sources of Guidance, and we see it as relevant.
When it comes to Bible we also don't have the negative view about it either, and for Bahais it is a valid source. It does not mean we are taking side with Christians, just because we also believe in the Bible being legitimate.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Its not relevant., But still, quote directly from what you say is "Shii hadith collections" about their dogma about "Muthashabihat al ahadith".

This is the Hadith I was referring to:


ن : أبي ، عن علي ، عن أبيه ، عن حيون مولى الرضا ، عن الرضا 7 قال : من رد متشابه القرآن إلى محكمه هدي إلى صراط مستقيم ، ثم قال 7 : إن في أخبارنا متشابها كمتشابه القرآن ، ومحكما كمحكم القرآن ، فردوا متشابهها إلى محكمها ، ولا تتبعوا متشابهها دون محكمها فتضلوا

عيون أخبار الرضا (ع) - الشيخ الصدوق - ج ٢ - الصفحة ٢٦١
"Imam Rida said, One who refers Mutishabihat of the Quran to its Muhkam, will be guided to the right Path.
He then said: Our Hadithes contains Mutishabihat just as there is Mutishabihat in Quran....thus, you must refer Mutishabihat to the Muhkam. Do not follow Mutishabihaat."

 

[firedragon]

I think this idea of corruption In Hadithes or inventing false Hadithes, comes from conflicts between Shia and Sunnis. From early Islam the two sects accused each other sources being false. The Shias accused the Sunni narrators of being liars, and likewise the Sunnis accused the Shia sources of being inventions.

Well, that's wrong.

 

[firedragon]

This is the Hadith I was referring to:


ن : أبي ، عن علي ، عن أبيه ، عن حيون مولى الرضا ، عن الرضا 7 قال : من رد متشابه القرآن إلى محكمه هدي إلى صراط مستقيم ، ثم قال 7 : إن في أخبارنا متشابها كمتشابه القرآن ، ومحكما كمحكم القرآن ، فردوا متشابهها إلى محكمها ، ولا تتبعوا متشابهها دون محكمها فتضلوا

عيون أخبار الرضا (ع) - الشيخ الصدوق - ج ٢ - الصفحة ٢٦١
"Imam Rida said, One who refers Mutishabihat of the Quran to its Muhkam, will be guided to the right Path.
He then said: Our Hadithes contains Mutishabihat just as there is Mutishabihat in Quran....thus, you must refer Mutishabihat to the Muhkam. Do not follow Mutishabihaat."

Nice. Thanks. This goes to prove another contradiction of yours mate. But that would put you on another tangent.

 

[firedragon]

I have to clarify, I am not offering invented Hadiths, just Hadith that lean more towards a personal understanding of what was said, much like pilgrim notes.

Regards Tony

Tony. Could you please see if you could spell out the official position on ahadith? And when I say ahadith I am referring to stories narrated by someone that goes back to the prophet Muhammed or a companion.

If there is no official position, that's fine. I understand that what ever hadith that any of the Bahai manifestations or their appointed like Abdul Baha or Effendi are considered authentic by default. Of course for a Bahai that's a reasonable position. I am not contending that. Leaving that aside, is there any other statement about other ahadith that are not cited by any of them?

Please advise.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Nice. Thanks. This goes to prove another contradiction of yours mate. But that would put you on another tangent.

Do you want to explain why you think so?