1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Bahai position/methodology on Hadith

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by firedragon, Sep 24, 2021.

  1. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    16,672
    Ratings:
    +4,400
    Religion:
    Islam
    "Just as the Quran is a source of religion, so is Hadithes." was a position of a Bahai in this forum. I was intrigued to understand the Bahai position on ahadith.

    1. Do Bahai's have an official position on ahadith?
    2. Do Bahai's accept and adopt all the hadith or do they filter based on their own methodology?
    3. Or, do Bahai's use traditional or modern methodologies developed by Muslim scholarship?

    I have seen some atheists use hadith to insult Islam and Muhammed as if they believe in hadith. Christians do that too. Not all, but some. So do others. But this particular one came as a surprise to me because I have not known Bahai's trying to authenticate hadith as a whole, even equating it to the Qur'an which even Muslims do not do. Generally. Thus this question.

    Thanks in advance.
     
  2. Xavier Graham SA

    Xavier Graham SA God is Love, is love, is love. OM, AV KAH AHH!

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2021
    Messages:
    566
    Ratings:
    +551
    Religion:
    Christian Anarchist
  3. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Messages:
    8,566
    Ratings:
    +4,364
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    Hi firedragon.

    As you know not all hadiths are authentic so it goes without saying that just as Muslim scholars filter and distinguish what they consider authentic from those viewed as fabricated, so too did the Bab and Baha’u’llah but as considered Manifestations of God though.

    So for example, if a Hadith is quoted in writing and signed by either the Bab or Baha’u’llah, it is automatically elevated to the Word of God.

    Baha’is only adhere to the official position on any given Hadith such as what the Manifestations have quoted in Their recorded tablets and sealed with Their authority.
    Bahá’ís cannot filter hadiths but are bound to follow whatever the Manifestations have written.

    All in all, Baha’is have no authoritative position on hadiths or the Quran or any Holy Book except what the Manifestations have revealed and the appointed Successors Abdul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi.

    Baha’is are forbidden to authoritatively interpret text but may have individual views. We have no interpreters in the Bahá’í Faith anymore after the passing of Shoghi Effendi.
     
  4. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    16,672
    Ratings:
    +4,400
    Religion:
    Islam
    Well, that's a decent post. So your contention is that a hadith quoted by Bab, Bahaullah or Baha or Effendi are by default authentic based on authority. Well, that's similar to the Nizari, Imami, positions. Thats fine.

    1. Is this an official, Bahai position?
    2. How about the thousands of ahadith never mentioned by either one of them? Whats the Bahai position on that?

    @loverofhumanity pls be kind enough to provide bahai sources for the positions.

    Thanks for your post. I really appreciate it.
     
    #4 firedragon, Sep 24, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2021
  5. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    16,672
    Ratings:
    +4,400
    Religion:
    Islam
    Thanks for that. The Bahai position spoken of by the Bahai gentleman there seems to be highly contrasting to the person here. Vis a vis, @loverofhumanity
     
  6. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    16,672
    Ratings:
    +4,400
    Religion:
    Islam
    @InvestigateTruth

    I would like to clarify the difference in your representation of the Bahai position and @loverofhumanity 's presentation. If you have time.

    Please cite Bahai sources for these positions if you dont mind.
     
  7. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Messages:
    8,566
    Ratings:
    +4,364
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    Yes that’s the official position. We are not permitted to individually determine authenticity of hadiths or any scripture.

    As to other hadiths if they comply with what the Quran says they might be true. For instance the Quran states that Muhammad was an example to mankind so any hadith portraying Him a negative light would be false as it is contradicted by the Word of God.

    The sole authority always remains with the Word of God.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    16,672
    Ratings:
    +4,400
    Religion:
    Islam
    Oh so there is another type of scholarship also involved in this equation. So what you are saying is, there is another methodology of authentication, which is as you said, anything that portrays the prophet Muhammed as an example in a positive light is fact?

    Can you please cite the official Bahai position on this?
     
  9. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Messages:
    8,566
    Ratings:
    +4,364
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    No what I meant was that whatever the Quran says is truth and no hadith can ever trump it. I just gave an example of it that’s all. There is no other method than the Quran itself and with Baha’is what their Manifestations have officially recorded and signed with Their seal.
     
  10. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    16,672
    Ratings:
    +4,400
    Religion:
    Islam
    Okay. So you did say that ahadith should not portray the prophet in a bad light, thus as compliant with the Quran ahadth that are portraying the prophet Muhammed in a positive light is authentic by default. Let me quote your statement here so that if you could, you could clarify.

    Please clarify, and please provide Bahai sources if you have any.

    If you dont have Bahai sources like an official page at least, its alright, just say it does not exist. Thats just so that I dont go looking for a bahai source that would support your position.
     
  11. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Messages:
    14,414
    Ratings:
    +6,626
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    I am not aware of any in depth detail on this topic, Regards Tony.
     
  12. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Messages:
    14,414
    Ratings:
    +6,626
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    This quote offers how we should consider gaining our knowledge of Islam from.

    "They must strive to obtain, from sources that are authoritative and unbiased, a sound knowledge of the history and tenets of Islam -- the source and background of their Faith -- and approach reverently and with a mind purged from preconceived ideas the study of the Qur'án which, apart from the sacred scriptures of the Bábí and Bahá'í Revelations, constitutes the only Book which can be regarded as an absolutely authenticated Repository of the Word of God. They must devote special attention to the investigation of those institutions and circumstances that are directly connected with the origin and birth of their Faith, with the station claimed by its Forerunner, and with the laws revealed by its Author. (Shoghi Effendi, The Advent of Divine Justice, p. 49)

    Regards Tony
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Messages:
    8,566
    Ratings:
    +4,364
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    This is a quote by Abdul-Baha regarding only following the texts not narratives or stories which hadiths are.

    Thou hast written concerning the pilgrims and pilgrim's notes.
    Any narrative that is not authenticated by a Text should not be
    trusted. Narratives, even if true, cause confusion. For the people of
    Baha, the Text, and only the Text, is authentic." (Translated extract
    from a previously-untranslated Tablet of 'Abdu'l-Bahá)
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  14. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    16,672
    Ratings:
    +4,400
    Religion:
    Islam
    Okay Tony. Thank you so much.
     
  15. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    16,672
    Ratings:
    +4,400
    Religion:
    Islam
    So you are making an analogy between the pilgrims notes (which Tony @TransmutingSoul educated me about) and ahadith?
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  16. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    16,672
    Ratings:
    +4,400
    Religion:
    Islam
    IN this case, speaking about "the author", who do you think is or are the author(s) of ahadith?
     
  17. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Messages:
    8,566
    Ratings:
    +4,364
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    I think it’s the closest in our scriptures about not trusting stories but only to trust in the Holy Texts.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2013
    Messages:
    16,672
    Ratings:
    +4,400
    Religion:
    Islam
    Nothing about ahadith, authentication based on positive, non contradictory statements about Muhammed etc?
     
  19. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Messages:
    8,566
    Ratings:
    +4,364
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    Yes correct but doesn’t the word hadith mean story or narrative?
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  20. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Messages:
    14,414
    Ratings:
    +6,626
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    Yes, as these are records of people who are saying this is what was said, but were recorded some time later, varying from hours to years.

    They are an understanding of the topic from that persons perspective, it is what they recollected in their given frames of reference and capacity in spirit.

    For a Baha'i these are of great interest, but if they are not backed by the recorded Message, we have no way of knowing if that is what was said, or if it was said, what was the entire context and intended meaning.

    For instance, there was a lot of pilgrim notes from Shoghi Effendi time around the 2nd world war. They were very graphic about the possibility of the destruction that faced mankind.

    Those talks are reflected in the official writings, but no where near the detail given by the pilgrims. Also many pilgrims were at the same talks and interestingly the records of each of these almost always give different levels of detail. So it is easy to see how a person could have embellished the talk with their own reflections and ideas they had on what they had heard.

    Regards Tony
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
Loading...