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Featured Bahai position/methodology on Hadith

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by firedragon, Sep 24, 2021.

  1. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    The conflicts between Sunni and Shia is well known. I lived in a countree of a majority Shia, and have witnessed these things, and read them too. Just do some search and see how they view each other's Hadithes. Perhaps you want to explain your view more clearly?
     
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  2. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Ill tell you what. Can you provide "EVIDENCE" to your claim? Not just "what you think", but evidence. Just so that you dont say something like "they use to have conflict" which is a globally known thing and is not evidence for anything, I will cut and paste your claim. After you present your evidence (Again, not just 'what you think'), I will show you why you are so wrong and are just making one speculation after another.

    "I think this idea of corruption In Hadithes or inventing false Hadithes, comes from conflicts between Shia and Sunnis. From early Islam the two sects accused each other sources being false. The Shias accused the Sunni narrators of being liars, and likewise the Sunnis accused the Shia sources of being inventions."
     
  3. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    This is my own conclusion based on what I have read and seen.

    The conflict between Shia and Sunni started over the successorship after Muhammad. The Shias use Hadithes, which also include some Hadithes in Sunni collections to prove that Ali was the chosen successor after Muhammad. The Sunnis, in order to reject and fight back, reject these Hadithes, and to do that, they have cruiticisid Shia collection of Hadithes, such as Biharulanwar or Al-kafi.
    Then, in return and for retaliation, the Shias often call the Sunni Hadith narrators and collectors Liars. This is a well-known conflict. And I doubted anyone who is aware of Sunni and Shia, would disagree. You can easily find info on this.
    Here are some info

    Shia–Sunni relations - Wikipedia


    Now, to add more to this, after the Manifestation of the Bab, the Babis, and Bahais used Hadithes, specially from Shia collections to prove that the Bab matches the signs of the Qaim (aka Mahdi) described in Hadithes. Now, at this point on the Shia leaders started to say that such Hadithes are false Hadithes, even though it is in the Shia collections. This is what I have experienced on this RF, when discussing with Shias. So, my conclusion is, the sects tend to use this excuse that since the Hadithes cannot be proved to be authentic, whenever they say something that they don't like, they simply reject it, even when it is in their own Hadith collections.
    The result of such conflicts among various sects, has been the appearance of the Quranism sect in more recent years.


    The Bahai position on Hadithes clearly is described in this thread. We don't have such instructions to reject Hadithes or ignore them. No bias towards Sunni or Shia Hadithes.
    I know a Bahai wrote a Book at the request of Abdulbaha to use Islamic sources.
    When the scholars wrote the Book His style was as follows:

    To prove every point, He used a Shia Hadith and a similar Hadith from Sunni collection. Then He supported the validity of Hadithes by quoting at least a verse from the Quran to show those Hadithes have their roots in the Quran. My conclusion is This method must have been approved by Abdulbaha, since He had asked this scholar to wrote the book.
     
    #63 InvestigateTruth, Sep 26, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2021
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  4. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    None of that makes any evidence for your claims.

    Now I will tell you why you are wrong.

    1. Sunni's disqualify their ahadith as a policy that came from the school of Medina, and the Hanifan schools, and do not have anything to do with the Shii conflict which you just made up out of thin air. If you want to read up on it read the Mudawwana, Tahzibut Tahzib.

    2. Shii's accept Sunni ahadith, just that their authentication methodology is different. If I get into explaining methodologies you would make more things up so I will stop there. Not only Shii's, even Sunni's call Sunni ahadith narrators "liars". Calling them liars is part of the Sunni methodology. If you dont know about it, just ask, dont make things up.

    3. Bihar al anwar is dated half a millennium after the Shii Sunni split happened. So dont make things up.

    4. Also, this so called "Quranism" sect was there since the beginning, and if you wish to know about them, you can read the books I have given above. If you want more, I can give you more.

    5. Shii Sunni split happened over a millennium before the Bab. So what happened after the bab is not relevant to your false claim.

    I can see that anyway you will respond with some more speculation. Why dont you do some studying of what you are speaking about rather than just make "I think" statements?
     
  5. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    These points you are making is true, but they are what looks more at the surface. I don't believe these are the deeper reasons.
    Essentially, the motivation behind rejecting or accepting Hadithes by various sects is not anything logical. The motivation is what suits them. So, if it does not suit them to accept a Hadith collection, they try to find reasons to justify their rejection. If a Hadith suits them, they try and find reasons to justify it. The Motivation is not "Truth". Thats how I see it. You have a different view, that's fine.
     
  6. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Nope. Thats not "my view". Thats not my personal opinion or speculation. I didnt make it up. The problem is you are not willing to walk to the boutique, vis a vis, read up.
     
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  7. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    Are these God's view? Nope. Just your own view and perhaps some others as well who share similar views. But that's fine.
     
  8. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    So in which world is it that "Either it is my view, or it is God's view"?

    Mate. yOU are just making things up. I asked for evidence, not preaching made up bogus embarrassments.

    Thats an embarrassing statement to make. If you dont know something, just ask. There are many people like you mate who just keep making things up on the go for no reason.

    I didnt give you "just some others who think like me". I gave you some of the oldest, historians and scholars. You have given "your personal speculation".

    Unbelievable.
     
  9. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    Not all scholars agree with each other.
    Do Shia scholars agree with all your points?
    do sunni Scholars agree with all your points?

    They are just human beings, and fallible.

    Do you consider their position and opinions as fact, just because those scholars share the same view as yours?
     
  10. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    So which scholar says what you said? Can you specifically pinpoint? Just to be sure you know what we are talking about I will cut and paste for the third time what you said.

    "I think this idea of corruption In Hadithes or inventing false Hadithes, comes from conflicts between Shia and Sunnis. From early Islam the two sects accused each other sources being false. The Shias accused the Sunni narrators of being liars, and likewise the Sunnis accused the Shia sources of being inventions."

    Try.
     
  11. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    I feel sure most scholars agree with what i wrote above.

    honestly I don't see any value to spend time on it to prove it.

    If you are interested Just for example search on Sunni view on AlKafi, and Biharulanwar. Or search for Shia view on Bukhari. Likewise search for successorship after Muhammad, sunni and Shia conflicts.



    But also I understand beside what I said, why other Muslims do not trust some or most Hadithes. It is just that they feel they have no way to be sure if these Hadithes are true. And most Muslims have a pessimistic view about other sects. So, for them it is hard to trust other sources of Hadithes.

    But I also believe, to try to interpret and understand the Quran without Hadith, has its own problems. Many of the verses of the Quran are in the form of allusions or methaphors. Some of them are allusions to someone, or some event, that only with the use of recorded traditions one can really understand them.
    For Bahais it is a different story.
     
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  12. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    What you feel is not relevant.

    Thanks for showing your method.
     
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  13. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
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    I would ask have you seen the Hadith quoted by Baha'u'llah about Akka?

    I think discussing them will be able to validate what I see @InvestigateTruth is offering.

    Regards Tony
     
  14. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    That is not relevant to his "I feel" statements, and saying "scholars disagree" while not quoting a single scholar because there is none.
     
  15. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
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    I see the list would be extensive, well above naught.

    Unfortunately, or fortunately, depends on the way we look at it, we have lives outside of these OPs and would have to find time to relocate many of these sources that formed the opinions in the first place.

    Regards Tony
     
  16. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Quote me five please.
     
  17. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
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    Well to be fair, you would know I personally l can only go to the net to find them. So this is a starting point:
    Criticism of hadith - Wikipedia

    I will add I do not see that it is fruitful to continue this, I feel we should be building upon what we can work together with.

    So happy to bow out and listen.

    Regards Tony
     
    #77 TransmutingSoul, Sep 26, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2021
  18. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Tony. Do you really believe I need a wikipedia page?

    Anyway, this wikipedia page does not state what was stated by IT above. You and him are both making vague statements about scholars, but are not quoting any addressing what was said. I will cut and paste what he said again. for the fourth time.

    "I think this idea of corruption In Hadithes or inventing false Hadithes, comes from conflicts between Shia and Sunnis. From early Islam the two sects accused each other sources being false. The Shias accused the Sunni narrators of being liars, and likewise the Sunnis accused the Shia sources of being inventions."
     
  19. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    To start, I suggest, let's see How Shias and Sunnis try to discredit the Hadith collections of the other group. As an example, here is a Shia words On Sahih Bukhari Hadithes. I quote from WikiShia:


    " With regards to some of its hadiths, Dhahabi says if they were not cited in Sahih al-Bukhari, I would bet that they are forged and unauthentic. According to Imam al-Ḥaramayn, if someone swears that all hadiths in Sahih al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim are words of the Prophet (s), he has rightly done so.


    However, some Sunni scholars, such as Darqutni, have criticized the book, challenging the thought that its hadiths count as the most authentic ones. "

    Sahih al-Bukhari (book)

    As we see the Shias try to discredit Sunni Hadith collection, by showing that even the Sunni scholars considered that Book full of fake Hadithes! Such is their technique!!!!


    Now, see what Sunnis say about Alkaafi, a well-known Shia Hadith collection. Here is an example of dialogue between Sunni and Shias about Alkafi:

    "Al-Kafi has a plethora of weak and fabricated ahadeeth. In the beginning of the book Shaykh Kulayni (ra) says that he didn't sift through it for reliability rather to just put everything he had into it and that we should compare everything with Allah (swt)'s infallible Qur'an to see if it is haqq or batil."

    https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/234962750-al-kafi/

    See?

    If we just do some search we see how each group tries to discredit the other group legitimacy, by discrediting their Hadith collections. I hope this makes it a little clear about what I tried to say.
    The Sunni and Shia are the two biggest Muslim sects. It is obvious, such arguments must have had a great effect on questioning and even abandoning Hadith collections by many Muslims.

    I will get back to the Quran Only Muslim sect, shortly!
     
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  20. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    None of that prove your point. And the Quran only Muslim are irrelevant.
     
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