Baha’i Faith, homosexuality, and censorship

[Jim]

I have no idea what Bahai allows its members to say.

My point was that it's pretty explicit from the quote I offered that Effendi was against homosexual sex acts and relationships. It's very implausible to suggest that that wouldn't include marriage.

If you as a Bahai are bound dogmatically to agree with him about that, I don't know, but from what I know I assume you are?

No.

 

[Left Coast]

No.

No, you're not required to agree with Effendi as a Bahai? Fascinating. What are you required to agree with, if anything?

 

[Jim]

No, you're not required to agree with Effendi as a Bahai? Fascinating. What are you required to agree with, if anything?

If you mean what beliefs I’m required to agree with, and you’re asking what I personally think about it, my answer is none. I’m not required to agree with any beliefs.

 

[Aupmanyav]

You are required to believe in existence of One Allah.
You are required to believe that Bahaullah was a manifestation of Allah, a mirror image, an exact replica, and that he was the returning Jesus, Krishna, Buddha and Saoshyant.
You are required to believe in passing the baton to Master, Abdul Baha to explain what Bahaullah said.
You are required to believe in the Authority of Shoghi Effendi as the Guide.
You are required to agree with what your House of Justice declares.
If you do not do any one of that, you are not a Bahai.
If you are not a Bahai, why do you hang around them? Is there any other interest that I have missed?

 

[Left Coast]

If you mean what beliefs I’m required to agree with, and you’re asking what I personally think about it, my answer is none. I’m not required to agree with any beliefs.

Fascinating, so the Baha'i faith maintains no requirements of any kind of what members are to believe? I can join, as an atheist who doesn't believe in any of the prophets?

 

[Jim]

... why do you hang around them? Is there any other interest that I have missed?

I’m thinking that you might really be asking. Are you? Do you really want to know?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Are you agreeing that there is no rule or policy in the Baha’i Faith community against disagreeing with what the House of Justice says about Baha’i teachings?

There is no explicit law that indicates it is forbidden to openly disagree with the House of Justice. However I’ve already shared with you a passage from the House of Justice who declares “dissidence is a moral and intellectual contradiction of the main objective animating the Bahá’í community, namely, the establishment of the unity of mankind.”

What do you make of Bahá’u’lláh’s words when He says:

Nothing whatever can, in this Day, inflict a greater harm upon this Cause than dissension and strife, contention, estrangement and apathy, among the loved ones of God. Flee them, through the power of God and His sovereign aid, and strive ye to knit together the hearts of men, in His Name, the Unifier, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.

Are you agreeing that no one has ever been disqualified from the membership for that reason?

It is clear that in rare instances members of the Baha’i Faith have been disqualified from membership. It appears likely in a few instances to have occurred after two things have taken place:

1/ Prolonged and aggressive promotion of teachings that contradict fundamental Baha’i Teachings over a period of years.

2/ The person in question is unable or unwilling to change their views after being counselling and being provided with the writings that correct their erroneous understanding of the Baha’i writings.

I must emphasise that this occurs in rare and extreme cases. For most people who promote misunderstandings and misinformation the Baha’i Administration chooses not to respond or take any action.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Fascinating, so the Baha'i faith maintains no requirements of any kind of what members are to believe? I can join, as an atheist who doesn't believe in any of the prophets?

According to the Universal House of Justice:

Deciding on the qualification for membership in the Baha'i Faith of one who expresses belief in Baha'u'llah is a delicate matter. The principal factors to be taken into consideration in making such a determination have been set out by Shoghi Effendi:

Full recognition of the station of the Bab, the Forerunner; of Baha'u'llah, the Author; and of 'Abdu'l-Baha, the True Exemplar of the Baha'i religion; unreserved acceptance of, and submission to, whatsoever has been revealed by their Pen; loyal and steadfast adherence to every clause of 'Abdu'l-Baha's sacred Will; and close association with the spirit as well as the form of Baha'i Administration throughout the world.

So why would an atheist who doesn’t believe in any Prophets want to join a religion that believes in One God and many Prophets? Why would a Baha’i tell you the Baha’i Faith requires nothing of you when in reality the Baha’i writings unequivocally suggest otherwise?

 

[Dawnofhope]

I believe your presentation of the Baha’i Faith has some significant problems.

You are required to believe in existence of One Allah.

Although Baha’is believe in One God, the God of Abraham, Jim is both an atheist and a Baha’i in good standing.

You are required to believe that Bahaullah was a manifestation of Allah, a mirror image, an exact replica, and that he was the returning Jesus, Krishna, Buddha and Saoshyant.

Baha’is believe the Bahá’u’lláh was a Manifestation of God along with Jesus, Buddha and Krishna. However they are not God incarnate as you suggest.

You are required to believe in passing the baton to Master, Abdul Baha to explain what Bahaullah said.

That is not too far off. Bahá’u’lláh in His Will and Testament appointed His eldest son, Abdu’l-Baha as His successor to be the leader of His Faith, an authorised interpreter of Bahá’u’lláh’s Words and a perfect exemplar of Baha’i life.

You are required to believe in the Authority of Shoghi Effendi as the Guide.

That is close. Abdu’l-Baha appointed twin successors.

1/ His eldest grandson as to be the Guardian of the Faith. That meant being its head or leader. It also meant being an authorised interpreter of the Baha’i writings.

2/ The Universal House of Justice an elected body that would be the leader of the Baha’i Faith and could elucidate on the Writings and clarify and resolve differences when it came to the Baha’i writings. They could also enact and repeal laws as long as it did not contradict Bahá’u’lláh’s laws.

You are required to agree with what your House of Justice declares.

If you do not do any one of that, you are not a Bahai.

Not true.

If you are not a Bahai, why do you hang around them? Is there any other interest that I have missed?

Only Jim can answer that one but I consider him a Baha’i in good standing.

I’ve deliberately emphasised the authority invested in not only the Bab and Bahá’u’lláh as the twin Manifestations of God but the authority invested in Abdul-Baha, Shoghi Effendi and the Universal House of Justice and the necessity for a Baha’i to adhere to what is known as the Covenant of Bahá’u’lláh with this clear succession. So while Baha’is do have latitude to have non-Bahá’í beliefs it is a for the most part a matter between the individual and God. The Baha’i Administration doesn’t pry into peoples personal lives unless there is exceptional circumstances. It is a personal matter as to whether or not Jim considers himself a Baha’i.

 

[stvdv]

"No matter how devoted and fine the love may be between people of the same sex, to let it find expression in sexual acts is wrong. To say that it is ideal is no excuse. Immorality of every sort is really forbidden by Baháʼu'lláh, and homosexual relationships, He looks upon as such, besides being against nature."

Once a diciple asked his Master how often sex was okay. The Master replied "1 child is enough".

I think even most Bahais would stay far from this Master.

It all has to do with the level of Spirituality (no thought state). The more Spiritual you are the less interest you have in sex. Some yogis remain in 'deep' meditation for years; without thoughts of course.

My Master said "if there is a desire it must be fulfilled". Which is in line with His other teaching "your thoughts, words and deeds should be 1".

I short: IMO it is very unhealthy to have a general rule about someone's feelings within a Religion. And worse would be to stigmatize people because of their feelings. It's like condemning God for the Creation He made.

 

[stvdv]

Immorality of every sort is really forbidden by Baháʼu'lláh, and homosexual relationships, He looks upon as such, besides being against nature."

I did not read any texts from Bahaullah Himself where He put it this way. But as my Master can be quite tough (not judgmental, but really confronting you with your bestial habits and reminding you of your Divine Nature, Reality), maybe I felt like "Bahaullah seems easy going (easy in the good way; meaning not judgmental, but less confrontational)". Kind of relieve.

I will reread His Book. First time I read it, He seemed quite "non judgmental", more like advising the best way to go (when one is keen on merging with Divinity), not condemning if one (temporarily) takes another way.

Personally I only take Bahaullah His words, not His grandson's interpretation. Might be good also, but when reading Bahaullah, all felt really good; that 1 book of His I read, so I stick to that.

But now I am curious how I will feel reading it again, a few years later.

 

[Aupmanyav]

1. Although Baha’is believe in One God, the God of Abraham, Jim is both an atheist and a Baha’i in good standing.
2. Baha’is believe the Bahá’u’lláh was a Manifestation of God along with Jesus, Buddha and Krishna. However they are not God incarnate as you suggest.
3. That is not too far off. Bahá’u’lláh in His Will and Testament appointed His eldest son, Abdu’l-Baha as His successor to be the leader of His Faith, an authorised interpreter of Bahá’u’lláh’s Words and a perfect exemplar of Baha’i life.
4. That is close. Abdu’l-Baha appointed twin successors.
5. Not true.
6. Only Jim can answer that one but I consider him a Baha’i in good standing.
7. I’ve deliberately emphasised the authority invested in not only the Bab and Bahá’u’lláh as the twin Manifestations of God but the authority invested in Abdul-Baha, Shoghi Effendi and the Universal House of Justice and the necessity for a Baha’i to adhere to what is known as the Covenant of Bahá’u’lláh with this clear succession. So while Baha’is do have latitude to have non-Bahá’í beliefs it is a for the most part a matter between the individual and God. The Baha’i Administration doesn’t pry into peoples personal lives unless there is exceptional circumstances. It is a personal matter as to whether or not Jim considers himself a Baha’i.

1. Now, how can that be? When Bahaullah said that there is One Allah, was he speaking a lie? If Jim does not believe in One Allah, how can he be a Bahai?
2. But I remember that you said there is no difference between Allah and a manifestation. And you and Bahais claim that Bahaullah fulfilled all prophecies of an incorrect Bible (Bible is not correct but the prophecies are correct!) and is the returning Jesus, Krishna, Buddha and Saoshyant.
3. Right. That is what I was trying to tell Jim that he has to believe in One Allah, the manifesttion of Allah as Bhaullah, and the authority of Abdul Baha, Shoghi Effendi and the House of Justice. It is obligatory for any Bahai. Not recognizing any of them renders Jim to be a non-Bahai.
4. He sure did. Why did he need to do that? Was Shoghi Effendi not enough? It was like appointing a successor and creating a ministry to save him from any problem.
Twin Covenants. Now that creates another problem.
"They are part of the same Covenant, the Lesser Covenant Bahá'u'lláh has made with His believers. He has covenanted with us that He will guide the Institutions of the Cause until the appearance of the next Manifestation of God, and has taken from us a Covenant to turn to them."
Bahaullah will guide you even after his death, for a 1,000 years! How is he doing that? Has he taken the form of ghost or djinn to continue to guide you? Is he there in his grave or has been out? You people keep on telling us new things all the time. I thought Bahais were all for love and peace, but the covenant of Abdul Baha talks of enemies.
"May the wrath, the fierce indignation, the vengeance of God rest upon him!" Cursing like Jesus. What does a curse do? Can it harm the cursed? It only vitiates the mind of one who curses. I was not expecting this from the Bahai Guide, Shoghi Effendi.
5. Tell me how is it not true? Will Jim not incur the wrath and fierce indignation of Allah, if he does not follow the covenant?
6. Saying that Jim is an atheist and does not believe in Allah, then what is of Allah does not apply to him. And you still consider him a Bahai. You too are breaking the covenant. You are bringing the Bahai House down by such statements. You should reflect on what Bahaullah said.
7. What? What? Twin manifestation of God! I thought it was only Bahaullah. Now you say, there is a twin. Kindly let me know about this Bahaullahs twin. Bab was the Mahdi, he was not a manifestation of Allah. Bahais are impossible. One can never predict what they will say next.

 

[Jim]

Fascinating, so the Baha'i faith maintains no requirements of any kind of what members are to believe? I can join, as an atheist who doesn't believe in any of the prophets?

As I said, these are only my personal opinions. I don’t know how many other Baha’is would agree with me. A person calling herself an atheist and saying that they don’t believe in any prophets means nothing to me. I would want to know, why do they want to be a member? Can you give me a hypothetical example of what they might say?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Fascinating, so the Baha'i faith maintains no requirements of any kind of what members are to believe? I can join, as an atheist who doesn't believe in any of the prophets?

Well, Hinduism would not mind. I am a strong atheist and an orthodox Hindu.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I would want to know, why do they want to be a member? Can you give me a hypothetical example of what they might say?

Adrian calls you an atheist. If you are a Bahai in good faith, why Left Coast cannot be? Can you give me a hypothetical example of what they might say?

 

[Jim]

There is no explicit law that indicates it is forbidden to openly disagree with the House of Justice. However I’ve already shared with you a passage from the House of Justice who declares “dissidence is a moral and intellectual contradiction of the main objective animating the Bahá’í community, namely, the establishment of the unity of mankind.”

Are you posting that as a reason for thinking that it’s always wrong for any Baha’i who disagrees with what the House of Justice says about Baha’i teachings to say so in public?

What do you make of Bahá’u’lláh’s words when He says:

Nothing whatever can, in this Day, inflict a greater harm upon this Cause than dissension and strife, contention, estrangement and apathy, among the loved ones of God. Flee them, through the power of God and His sovereign aid, and strive ye to knit together the hearts of men, in His Name, the Unifier, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.

Are you posting that as a reason for thinking that it’s always wrong for any Baha’i who disagrees with what the House of Justice says about Baha’i teachings to say so in public?

It is clear that in rare instances members of the Baha’i Faith have been disqualified from membership. It appears likely in a few instances to have occurred after two things have taken place:

1/ Prolonged and aggressive promotion of teachings that contradict fundamental Baha’i Teachings over a period of years.

2/ The person in question is unable or unwilling to change their views after being counselling and being provided with the writings that correct their erroneous understanding of the Baha’i writings.

Are you posting that as a reason for thinking that that it’s always wrong for any Baha’i who disagrees with what the House of Justice says about Baha’i teachings to say so in public?

For most people who promote misunderstandings and misinformation the Baha’i Administration chooses not to respond or take any action.

Agreed.

 

[Jim]

Bahais are impossible. One can never predict what they will say next.

I bow to you.


I think you might be on to something.


I bow to you.

 

[firedragon]

I have no idea what Bahai allows its members to say.

My point was that it's pretty explicit from the quote I offered that Effendi was against homosexual sex acts and relationships. It's very implausible to suggest that that wouldn't include marriage.

If you as a Bahai are bound dogmatically to agree with him about that, I don't know, but from what I know I assume you are?

I maybe wrong but I think you have misunderstood the OP by Jim.

His question is not about homosexuality. His question is whether the bahai institution approves him speaking his mind.

I have no right to speak on behalf of someone and I could be wrong so I will stand corrected if corrected.

 

[Jim]

Adrian calls you an atheist. If you are a Bahai in good faith, why Left Coast cannot be? Can you give me a hypothetical example of what they might say?

They might say that they want to practice spiritual community development with Bahai’s, and they can agree with Bahá’u’lláh calling Himself a “manifestation of God” if they can think of “God” as purely metaphorical.

 

[Jim]

I maybe wrong but I think you have misunderstood the OP by Jim.

His question is not about homosexuality. His question is whether the bahai institution approves him speaking his mind.

I have no right to speak on behalf of someone and I could be wrong so I will stand corrected if corrected.

That post was like an oasis in the desert to me.