Baha’i Faith, homosexuality, and censorship

[Jim]

NOTE: I have no authority from any Baha’i institution to say what I’m saying in Internet discussions. What I’m saying is strictly my own personal view, possibly contrary to what most other Baha’is think, and possibly false.

I’m a member of the Baha’i Faith. For more than 10 years, I’ve been saying in Internet discussions that I don’t see any prohibition in Baha’i scriptures against all homosexual relationships, or against marriage between two women or two men. I have also been saying that there is no rule or policy in the Baha’i Faith against openly disagreeing with what the Universal House of Justice says about Baha’i teachings. I have also said that I’m not convinced that women will never be eligible for membership on the Universal House of Justice. I have informed the Universal House of Justice and other Baha’i leaders about what I’ve been doing in Internet discussions, and received confirmation that my reports were received. No Baha’i institution has ever advised me to stop what I was doing, or said anything against it at all. I have never been approached by any Baha’i institution about counseling me to “correct my misunderstandings.”

Does any Baha’i here have any authority from any Baha’i institution to tell me that anything I’m saying is contrary to Baha’i teachings?

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

I guess at this point, what I have read online confuses me. I have read something about how a Transgender person is expected to be a PostOP to be a Baha'i, when from a nonreligious standpoint, it really only makes sense for a Transgender to have bottom surgery done if they want to or have bottom dysphoria, and not to be a member of a faith.

 

[Jim]

Just for information, I do see a prohibition in Baha’i scriptures against some particular kind of sexual interaction or relationship between two men, regardless of their orientation, but I’m not sure that I know exactly what it is that is prohibited.

 

[Jim]

I guess at this point, what I have read online confuses me. I have read something about how a Transgender person is expected to be a PostOP to be a Baha'i, when from a nonreligious standpoint, it really only makes sense for a Transgender to have bottom surgery done if they want to or have bottom dysphoria, and not to be a member of a faith.

I haven’t done the research that I would want to do, before I would agree or disagree with anyone about that.

 

[Jim]

I guess at this point, what I have read online confuses me. I have read something about how a Transgender person is expected to be a PostOP to be a Baha'i ...

Have you seen any Baha’i institution saying that? Are you talking about membership, or identity? Anyone who wants to can identity as a Baha’i, no matter what rules they follow or don’t follow, just like with any other religion. One of the Baha’i national spiritual assemblies tried to copyright or trademark the name “Baha’i,” but that failed.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Does any Baha’i here have any authority from any Baha’i institution to tell me that anything I’m saying is contrary to Baha’i teachings?

We’re all entitled to our opinions, you and I included. Neither of us has any more authority than the other. If we want to know what the Baha’i writings teach we turn towards the Baha’i writings. I’m just wondering if you were wanting to discuss your views with Baha’is or you were deliberately wanting the participation of the wider RF community in what appears to be a disagreement with your fellow Baha’is?

 

[Vinayaka]

NOTE: I have no authority from any Baha’i institution to say what I’m saying in Internet discussions. What I’m saying is strictly my own personal view, possibly contrary to what most other Baha’is think, and possibly false.

I’m a member of the Baha’i Faith. For more than 10 years, I’ve been saying in Internet discussions that I don’t see any prohibition in Baha’i scriptures against all homosexual relationships, or against marriage between two women or two men. I have also been saying that there is no rule or policy in the Baha’i Faith against openly disagreeing with what the Universal House of Justice says about Baha’i teachings. I have also said that I’m not convinced that women will never be eligible for membership on the Universal House of Justice. I have informed the Universal House of Justice and other Baha’i leaders about what I’ve been doing in Internet discussions, and received confirmation that my reports were received. No Baha’i institution has ever advised me to stop what I was doing, or said anything against it at all. I have never been approached by any Baha’i institution about counseling me to “correct my misunderstandings.”

Does any Baha’i here have any authority from any Baha’i institution to tell me that anything I’m saying is contrary to Baha’i teachings?

What exactly is it you wish to debate?

 

[Vinayaka]

We’re all entitled to our opinions, you and I included. Neither of us has any more authority than the other. If we want to know what the Baha’i writings teach we turn towards the Baha’i writings. I’m just wondering if you were wanting to discuss your views with Baha’is or you were deliberately wanting the participation of the wider RF community in what appears to be a disagreement with your fellow Baha’is?

Agreed ... I think this belongs in the Baha'i DIR.

 

[Left Coast]

NOTE: I have no authority from any Baha’i institution to say what I’m saying in Internet discussions. What I’m saying is strictly my own personal view, possibly contrary to what most other Baha’is think, and possibly false.

I’m a member of the Baha’i Faith. For more than 10 years, I’ve been saying in Internet discussions that I don’t see any prohibition in Baha’i scriptures against all homosexual relationships, or against marriage between two women or two men. I have also been saying that there is no rule or policy in the Baha’i Faith against openly disagreeing with what the Universal House of Justice says about Baha’i teachings. I have also said that I’m not convinced that women will never be eligible for membership on the Universal House of Justice. I have informed the Universal House of Justice and other Baha’i leaders about what I’ve been doing in Internet discussions, and received confirmation that my reports were received. No Baha’i institution has ever advised me to stop what I was doing, or said anything against it at all. I have never been approached by any Baha’i institution about counseling me to “correct my misunderstandings.”

Does any Baha’i here have any authority from any Baha’i institution to tell me that anything I’m saying is contrary to Baha’i teachings?

Is Shoghi Effendi not an authoritative source?

"No matter how devoted and fine the love may be between people of the same sex, to let it find expression in sexual acts is wrong. To say that it is ideal is no excuse. Immorality of every sort is really forbidden by Baháʼu'lláh, and homosexual relationships, He looks upon as such, besides being against nature."

Homosexuality and the Baháʼí Faith - Wikipedia

 

[Jim]

We’re all entitled to our opinions, you and I included. Neither of us has any more authority than the other. If we want to know what the Baha’i writings teach we turn towards the Baha’i writings. I’m just wondering if you were wanting to discuss your views with Baha’is or you were deliberately wanting the participation of the wider RF community in what appears to be a disagreement with your fellow Baha’is?

I think that’s a fair question, and a useful one. This is part of my response to what looks to me like Baha’is in Internet discussions helping to spread misunderstandings and misinformation about the Baha’i Faith. One example of that is the idea that any Baha’i who disagrees with saying that there’s a prohibition in the Faith against all homosexual relationships is violating some rule or policy in the Baha’i Faith, and/or is unqualified for membership.

Are you, or are you not, saying that I’m violating some rule or policy in the Baha’i Faith, or that I am not qualified for membership?

 

[Jim]

Is Shoghi Effendi not an authoritative source?

"No matter how devoted and fine the love may be between people of the same sex, to let it find expression in sexual acts is wrong. To say that it is ideal is no excuse. Immorality of every sort is really forbidden by Baháʼu'lláh, and homosexual relationships, He looks upon as such, besides being against nature."

Homosexuality and the Baháʼí Faith - Wikipedia

See this post.

 

[Dawnofhope]

One example of that is the idea that any Baha’i who disagrees with saying that there’s a prohibition in the Faith against all homosexual relationships is violating some rule or policy in the Baha’i Faith, and/or is unqualified for membership.

Well we both know that isn’t true. Of course a Baha’i can make such a comment and remain a member. Next?

 

[Left Coast]

See this post.

I'm not sure what's confusing you then. He clearly prohibits homosexual sexual acts and homosexual relationships. It's pretty plain, isn't it?

 

[Jim]

I'm not sure what's confusing you then. He clearly prohibits homosexual sexual acts and homosexual relationships. It's pretty plain, isn't it?

What do you think he means by “homosexual acts” and relationships? Kissing? Hugging?Holding hands? Watching a sunset together with one person’s head on the other one’s shoulder? Everything that anyone calls “marriage”?

 

[Jim]

Well we both know that isn’t true. Of course a Baha’i can make such a comment and remain a member. Next?

Are you agreeing that there is no rule or policy in the Baha’i Faith community against openly disagreeing with what the House of Justice says about Baha’i teachings? Are you agreeing that no one has ever been disqualified from the membership for that reason?

 

[Left Coast]

What do you think he means by “homosexual acts” and relationships? Kissing? Hugging?Holding hands? Watching a sunset together with one person’s head on the other one’s shoulder?

If Effendi's views were anything like his surrounding culture, and most social conservatives, I think the notion of asking him to choose which base goes too far would probably strike him as a very weird and offensive question.

Is anal sex a sexual act?

Is marriage a sexual relationship?

 

[Jim]

If Effendi's views were anything like his surrounding culture, and most social conservatives, I think the notion of asking him to choose which base goes too far would probably strike him as a very weird and offensive question.

Is anal sex a sexual act?

Is marriage a sexual relationship?

If you’re asking me what I think, i think that what Shoghi Effendi means by “homosexuality” is whatever Bahá’u’lláh refrains from describing that He associates with “the subject of boys.” I have some ideas about what precisely that might be, but I’m not sure, and I haven’t seen any decision on it from the House of Justice. I am sure that it is not everything that anyone calls “marriage.”

 

[Left Coast]

If you’re asking me what I think, i think that what Shoghi Effendi means by “homosexuality” is whatever Baha’i refrains from describing that He associates with “the subject of boys.” I have some ideas about what precisely that might be, but I’m not sure, and I haven’t seen any decision on it from the House of Justice. I am sure that it is not everything that anyone calls “marriage.”

This strikes me as a way to rationalize pre-Sexual Revolution sexual ethics as something palatable for the 21st century.

Maybe Effendi was just...wrong?

I realize that probably opens a hole in your religious worldview, but it seems the most obvious answer.

 

[Jim]

This strikes me as a way to rationalize pre-Sexual Revolution sexual ethics as something palatable for the 21st century.

Maybe Effendi was just...wrong?

I realize that probably opens a hole in your religious worldview, but it seems the most obvious answer.

However that may be, my point is that there is no rule or policy in the Baha’i Faith community against saying what I’m saying. Are you disagreeing with that?

 

[Left Coast]

However that may be, my point is that there is no rule or policy in the Baha’i Faith community against saying what I’m saying. Are you disagreeing with that?

I have no idea what Bahai allows its members to say.

My point was that it's pretty explicit from the quote I offered that Effendi was against homosexual sex acts and relationships. It's very implausible to suggest that that wouldn't include marriage.

If you as a Bahai are bound dogmatically to agree with him about that, I don't know, but from what I know I assume you are?