Baha’i Faith, homosexuality, and censorship

[Jim]

I did not discuss it, Jim. I just answered your point.

Sorry, I wasn’t objecting to what you posted. Sorry I didn’t make that clear.

 

[Jim]

Here are some of my thoughts about homosexuality in relation to Baha’i scriptures:
- I see Bahá’u’lláh ratifying the sexual prohibitions in Leviticus 18, but I don’t think that has anything to do with sexual orientation or any gay issues.
- I see Bahá’u’lláh promoting and regulating marriages between men and women, but I don’t think that has anything to do with sexual orientation or any gay issues.
- I don’t see any possibility ever for any marriage between two women or two men to be certified as a Baha’i marriage, but I don’t think that has anything to do with sexual orientation or any gay issues.
- I see Bahá’u’lláh preferring not to discuss pederasty, in a context of permissible marriage partners, but I don’t think that has anything to do with sexual orientation or any gay issues.
- I don’t see any prohibition in Baha’i scriptures against all homosexual relations. I don’t see any sexual prohibitions other than the ones in Leviticus 18.
- I don’t see any prohibition in Baha’i scriptures against a relationship between two women or two men called a “marriage” or legalized as one.
- I don’t think that the morality or healthfulness of any sexual activities has anything to do with anyone’s sex type, orientation or gender identity.

Does anyone have any more comments or questions on any of that?

 

[Jim]

Hello Jim.
I looked through my notes and can see thast there are various Bahai laws about homosexuality. Of course Homosexuality is a word which applies to both male and female 'same-sex' marriages and sexual relationships. I feel sure that these can be accessed in the Bahai writings but here is a basic intro:-

I. Homosexuality
1221. Acts of Immorality
1222. Homosexuality and Transsexuality
1223. Through Advice, Help of Doctors, and Prayer, Can Overcome this Handicap
1224. Bahá’í Law Protects and Strengthens Marriage
1225. The Question Should not be if a Practicing Homosexual Can be a Bahá’í, but as Such Can He Overcome His Problem Through the Teachings
1226. Recognizing the Divine Origin of the Sex Impulse in Man, Religion Teaches it Must Be Controlled
1227. We are Assured of the Guidance of God When We Make an Effort to Obey Him
1228. One Must Make an Effort to Resist Wayward Impulses When They Arise by Turning to the Sacred Writings to Divert One's Thoughts
1229. A Homosexual Relationship Subverts the Purpose of Human Life
1230. Homosexuality, Immorality and Adultery Are Forbidden in the Faith

I’ve said everything that I want to say for now, about Baha’i censorship in Internet discussions. Now I want to use this thread to discuss homosexuality. Here are some of my thoughts about homosexuality in relation to Baha’i scriptures:
- I see Bahá’u’lláh ratifying the sexual prohibitions in Leviticus 18, but I don’t think that has anything to do with sexual orientation or any gay issues.
- I see Bahá’u’lláh promoting and regulating marriages between men and women, but I don’t think that has anything to do with sexual orientation or any gay issues.
- I don’t see any possibility ever for any marriage between two women or two men to be certified as a Baha’i marriage, but I don’t think that has anything to do with sexual orientation or any gay issues.
- I see Bahá’u’lláh preferring not to discuss pederasty, in a context of permissible marriage partners, but I don’t think that has anything to do with sexual orientation or any gay issues.
- I don’t see any prohibition in Baha’i scriptures against all homosexual relations. I don’t see any sexual prohibitions other than the ones in Leviticus 18.
- I don’t see any prohibition in Baha’i scriptures against a relationship between two women or two men called a “marriage” or legalized as one.
- I don’t think that the morality or healthfulness of any sexual activities has anything to do with anyone’s sex type, orientation or gender identity.

Do you think that you’ve seen anything in the writings of Bahá’u’lláh or either one of His two authorized interpreters, that you think is contrary to what I’m saying?

 

[oldbadger]

I’ve said everything that I want to say for now, about Baha’i censorship in Internet discussions. Now I want to use this thread to discuss homosexuality. Here are some of my thoughts about homosexuality in relation to Baha’i scriptures:
- I see Bahá’u’lláh ratifying the sexual prohibitions in Leviticus 18, but I don’t think that has anything to do with sexual orientation or any gay issues.
- I see Bahá’u’lláh promoting and regulating marriages between men and women, but I don’t think that has anything to do with sexual orientation or any gay issues.
- I don’t see any possibility ever for any marriage between two women or two men to be certified as a Baha’i marriage, but I don’t think that has anything to do with sexual orientation or any gay issues.
- I see Bahá’u’lláh preferring not to discuss pederasty, in a context of permissible marriage partners, but I don’t think that has anything to do with sexual orientation or any gay issues.
- I don’t see any prohibition in Baha’i scriptures against all homosexual relations. I don’t see any sexual prohibitions other than the ones in Leviticus 18.
- I don’t see any prohibition in Baha’i scriptures against a relationship between two women or two men called a “marriage” or legalized as one.
- I don’t think that the morality or healthfulness of any sexual activities has anything to do with anyone’s sex type, orientation or gender identity.

Do you think that you’ve seen anything in the writings of Bahá’u’lláh or either one of His two authorized interpreters, that you think is contrary to what I’m saying?

Yes, Jim, I think that I have.
I keep my Bahai notes on a 'base' computer with everything that we have collected over about 20 years, every photo, hobby and event, Jim This computer is kept completely isolated from any outside links. The reason why I'm telling you this is because.... every time I am asked for sources in any discussion I have to go on a journey of document collection. Today is Sunday and I want to avoid such work!

But I can tell you that I have read that Bahai frowns upon men dressing or acting in any effeminate manner, separates both sexes in the way that they dress, cut their hair, work and carry out some duties.

Bahai does not condone men from loving or engaging with each other in sexual relations, and Bahai does not support any people having sexual; relations outside of marriage.

BUT..... Bahai does allow Polyamorous marriages up to two female partners, but there is no provision for a woman to marry two husbands. Bahai will argue against these points but they are written down, Jim, so I will not take notice of Bahais today trying to alter what Bahauallah wrote. Male Bahais can have two wives, and since the Bahai marriage can take place outside of National legislations, such marriages could be common-law.

About pederasty...... I think that one of Bahauallah's three wives was very young, but have no more details about that.

One thing I have learned....... ask Bahais for exact details and original writings about more sensitive issues and they just don't answer, or answer 'off topic', so I have has to search for self on such points, mostly.

Fortunately I see the World changing, and changing away from the bigotry of the above. Any religion that does not recognise the sex is a natural joy rather than a some kind of unspiritual dirtiness is just crank.

Consenting Sexual Joy is one of the most spiritual conditions that any human can experience.

QUESTION:-
I've told you what I think, now...... cxan you tell me the Bahai mindset about masturbation? Let's see if any will answer that with Bahai writings to back it up.

 

[Jim]

Yes, Jim, I think that I have.
I keep my Bahai notes on a 'base' computer with everything that we have collected over about 20 years, every photo, hobby and event, Jim This computer is kept completely isolated from any outside links. The reason why I'm telling you this is because.... every time I am asked for sources in any discussion I have to go on a journey of document collection. Today is Sunday and I want to avoid such work!

But I can tell you that I have read that Bahai frowns upon men dressing or acting in any effeminate manner, separates both sexes in the way that they dress, cut their hair, work and carry out some duties.

Bahai does not condone men from loving or engaging with each other in sexual relations, and Bahai does not support any people having sexual; relations outside of marriage.

BUT..... Bahai does allow Polyamorous marriages up to two female partners, but there is no provision for a woman to marry two husbands. Bahai will argue against these points but they are written down, Jim, so I will not take notice of Bahais today trying to alter what Bahauallah wrote. Male Bahais can have two wives, and since the Bahai marriage can take place outside of National legislations, such marriages could be common-law.

About pederasty...... I think that one of Bahauallah's three wives was very young, but have no more details about that.

One thing I have learned....... ask Bahais for exact details and original writings about more sensitive issues and they just don't answer, or answer 'off topic', so I have has to search for self on such points, mostly.

Fortunately I see the World changing, and changing away from the bigotry of the above. Any religion that does not recognise the sex is a natural joy rather than a some kind of unspiritual dirtiness is just crank.

Consenting Sexual Joy is one of the most spiritual conditions that any human can experience.

QUESTION:-
I've told you what I think, now...... cxan you tell me the Bahai mindset about masturbation? Let's see if any will answer that with Bahai writings to back it up.

Thank you.

I didn’t see anything in that post like what I’m looking for. I don’t have any objection to you posting it. It just isn’t what I’m looking for.

 

[Jim]

I’m reposting my thoughts about homosexuality in relation to Baha’i scriptures, with a revision, and to explain more what I’m looking for. What I’m looking for would be in the writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Abdu’l-Baha, Shoghi Effendi or the Universal House of Justice, that were intended for all Baha’is to see. It would not be in any private messages intended only for the recipients. I won’t object to people quoting those, but there won’t be anything in them that I’m looking for. I’m asking for statements from the writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Abdu’l-Baha or Shoghi Effendi, intended for all Baha’is to read, that contradict one or more of my statements below. Please quote the statement from the writings, and specify which statement of mine you think it contradicts.
- I don’t see Bahá’u’lláh prohibiting any sexual interactions that not prohibited in Leviticus 18. I don’t think that anything in Leviticus 18 has anything to do with sexual orientation or any gay issues.
- I see Bahá’u’lláh promoting and regulating marriages between men and women, but I don’t think that has anything to do with sexual orientation or any gay issues.
- I don’t see any possibility ever for any marriage between two women or two men to be certified as a Baha’i marriage, but I don’t think that has anything to do with sexual orientation or any gay issues.
- I see Bahá’u’lláh preferring not to discuss pederasty, in a context of permissible marriage partners, but I don’t think that has anything to do with sexual orientation or any gay issues.
- I don’t see any prohibition in Baha’i scriptures against all homosexual relations. I don’t see any sexual prohibitions other than the ones in Leviticus 18.
- I don’t see any prohibition in Baha’i scriptures against a relationship between two women or two men being called a “marriage” or legalized as one.
- I don’t think that the morality or healthfulness of any sexual activities has anything to do with anyone’s sex type, orientation or gender identity.

If anyone can find anything in the writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Abdu’l-Baha or Shoghi Effendi, intended for all Baha’is to see, that you think contradicts one or more of my statements above, please quote the statement from the writings and specify which of my statements you think it contradicts.

 

[Jim]

I’m not denying that there is prejudice and discrimination against gays in Baha’i communities, sometimes in some places, and that people can find excuses and camouflage for it in Baha’i writings. Obviously there is, and obviously they can. I just don’t see any real grounds for it in Baha’i scriptures.

 

[Jim]

About pederasty...... I think that one of Bahauallah's three wives was very young, but have no more details about that.

”Pederasty” has a specific meaning as a social institution, which is not the same as pedophilia. Also, I think that the age of consent according to Baha’i scriptures is 15. Of course, that is subordinated to the laws of each country.

 

[oldbadger]

Thank you.

I didn’t see anything in that post like what I’m looking for. I don’t have any objection to you posting it. It just isn’t what I’m looking for.

What are you looking for?

 

[oldbadger]

”Pederasty” has a specific meaning as a social institution, which is not the same as pedophilia. Also, I think that the age of consent according to Baha’i scriptures is 15. Of course, that is subordinated to the laws of each country.

Ah..... but in a country which had a majority of Bahais, ansd where Bahai legislation and government had taken over, the age of consent would be 15.

Most people in the West think that is unacceptable, but some people in the East and in some Southern States of America think that is too high.

 

[Jim]

I don’t know if the silence here is because no one has any examples of what I’m looking for, because everyone has lost interest, or for some other reason. I’ll try posting some arguments that I’ve seen against what I’m saying. One of them is Bahá’u’lláh’s aversion to discussing the topic of pederasty, which He mentions in a context of permissible marriage partners. Another is the note with the Aqdas saying that Shoghi Effendi interpreted that as a prohibition on all homosexual relations. Another is Bahá’u’lláh prohibiting adultery, sodomy and lechery. My answer to all that is that I don’t think that Bahá’u’lláh is prohibiting anything that is not prohibited in Leviticus 18, and I don’t think that Leviticus 18 is prohibiting those behaviors because of the sexual gratification in them. I think that the purpose of Leviticus 18 is to regulate the use of penises, possibly for public health reasons, and for there to be no doubt or question about which man is the father of each child.

 

[Jim]

Since no one else is posting any arguments any more against what I’m saying, I guess I’ll have to do it myself. First I’ll explain some of it in more detail.

I think that everything that Baha’i scriptures say about marriage is about marriage between a man and one or more women. I don’t see that in itself as a prohibition against marriage between two women or two men. It just means that there’s nothing about that in the scriptures, apart from Leviticus 18:22. I think that Leviticus 18:22 is about the same social institution that Baha’u’llah calls “the subject of boys,” in a context of permissible marriage partners, and which He prefers not to discuss in detail.

I don’t think that God prohibits the behavior in Leviticus 18 because He doesn’t like us having fun that way together. I think it might be to regulate the use of penises for various reasons including public health and for there to be no doubt or question about who is the father of any child.

I don’t think that two women or two men having fun together with sexual stimulation is any more (or less) unhealthy or immoral than a man and woman doing the same, in the same circumstances.

i don’t see any possibility ever for a marriage between two men or two to be certified as a Baha’i marriage, because there’s nothing to certify. I think that the marriage laws in the scriptures are only for marriage between a man and one or more women.

 

[Jim]

If anyone wants to discuss private messages to individuals from Shoghi Effendi and the House of Justice, that’s okay with me, but what I’m looking for won’t be in them. What I’m looking for would be in the writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Abdu’l-Baha or Shoghi Effendi that were intended for all Baha’is to see.

I will say something about messages from Shoghi Effendi allegedly calling homosexuality an illness that can be cured by doctors. First, the word used in those messages is not “illness.” Second, what Shoghi is saying can be overcome with advice and help from doctors might be sexual addiction compulsive sexual behavior. Third, if anyone is actually, seriously claiming that they could never have a healthy, happy sexual relationship with any person of the opposite sex, then I don’t see what’s wrong with calling that an affliction and a handicap, besides being blatantly and shamelessly sexist. I think that any kind of prejudice is an affliction and a handicap.

 

[Jim]

I want to clarify what I think about marriage between two men or two women. I see a prohibition in my scriptures against one specific kind of marriage between two men. That doesn’t mean to me that it’s wrong for any relationship between two men to be called a “marriage,” or legalized as one. I don’t see any prohibition against any kind of marriage between two women.