Baha’i. Reality Check.

[Wombat]

(Thread hopefully open to all, especially those with interest in/experience of Baha’i)
In the context of a discussion regarding wether Baha’is envisaged a Global Baha’i Theocracy in the future it has just been put to me by a Baha’i that-

“The basic idea is that someday when everybody has become a Bahá'í in some country, it will be governed by Bahá'ís. That's not an issue, it's just practical common sense.


What's the big deal? Who else would govern? Would they have to import people who are not Bahá'ís to rule, so that some folks who are alarmed by this today, won't be scared?


Give it what? another hundred years? before the first nation becomes completely Bahá'í and you think it could even possibly be anything but the positive benefit it has always been?”


Is this the Baha’i view of the future? "When everybody has become a Bahá'í in some country, it will be governed by Bahá'ís."?

 

[Meow Mix]

To be fair, there is a difference between "A government which contains mostly Baha'i's" and "A Baha'i government."

Sort of like the discussion about religion in America sometimes where Christians claim that it's a "Christian Nation" incorrectly: there's a difference between "nation of mostly Christians" and "Christian nation."

Hopefully if it comes to pass that Baha'i do fill a government that they remember freedom of religion and other secular ideals to ensure everyone's freedom.

 

[Gaura Priya]

Well, the Baha'i Faith, at least from the Haifan organisation's perspective, the "Entry By Troops" will come to pass and the whole world will become Baha'is. By this time, Baha'i laws will be given preference over all other secular or religious laws, superceding them all, and culminating in an international Baha'i era lead by Baha'is, and eventually, into a one world government that would also be Baha'i led (the 'New World Order' as termed by Baha'is).

Who knows what will happen? Although as long as they cling to trademarking the Baha'i Faith, continue to practice censorship of their history, see homosexuals and transsexuals as mentally ill, continue the practicing of shunning 'Covenant-Breakers,' etc. I highly doubt that any of the agnostics and athiests of my generation will ever convert to the Baha'i Faith, as beautiful as Baha'u'llah may have made his religion.

 

[Meow Mix]

Well, the Baha'i Faith, at least from the Haifan organisation's perspective, the "Entry By Troops" will come to pass and the whole world will become Baha'is. By this time, Baha'i laws will be given preference over all other secular or religious laws, superceding them all, and culminating in an international Baha'i era lead by Baha'is, and eventually, into a one world government that would also be Baha'i led (the 'New World Order' as termed by Baha'is).

Who knows what will happen? Although as long as they cling to trademarking the Baha'i Faith, continue to practice censorship of their history, see homosexuals and transsexuals as mentally ill, continue the practicing of shunning 'Covenant-Breakers,' etc. I highly doubt that any of the agnostics and athiests of my generation will ever convert to the Baha'i Faith, as beautiful as Baha'u'llah may have made his religion.

Indeed, may a day as described never come to pass as the oppression sounds like it would be horrific.

 

[Gaura Priya]

Indeed, may a day as described never come to pass as the oppression sounds like it would be horrific.

I can't believe I spelled 'atheists' as 'athiests' :thud: I know better!

I have a love/hate relationship with the Baha'i Faith... Baha'u'llah gave many good ideals and examples of how to bring to pass a unity of all religions under one umbrella of tolerance and love. Not once did he believe in bringing people of all religions to automatically become Baha'is, but rather to intellectually investigate his claim as the latest Manifestation of God for this age.

Contrast that to his followers that began to organise and shape the (Haifan) Baha'i Faith into its present day governance system via the 'Universal House of Justice.' This is due to Shoghi Effendi in one of these Baha'i lineages, and I personally believe that it has ruined the liberal ideals of the Faith. Instead of consorting with people of differing religions, the goal of the Haifan Baha'is is to convert everyone into their governing system, and anyone who claims to be a Baha'i without the UHJ in their lives and on the enrollment, is not a 'true Baha'i.'

If the Universal House of Justice, a so-called institution Divinely appointed by God to have Divinely appointed decisions, is to be the model for future governments, I would be hard-pressed to see its ideals flourish now.

When Baha'u'llah mentions the 'Houses of Justice' I believe they referred to local governing bodies to deal with the locality's problems, not this hierarchical structure of a monstrosity instituted after the death of Shoghi Effendi.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Actually, to my knowledge, the UHJ is also for other religions, so the Baha'is would not keep others out of government. They believe that in the future when all religions unite under their banner, the UHJ will expand to include other religions. Also yes, their attitude toward homosexuality does bother me, but they maintain that a Baha'i cannot mistreat or judge a gay person. Most Baha'is I've ever met don't actually condemn homosexuality, but look down on homosexuals wanting to "flaunt" in public, which they also discourage heterosexuals from doing, so at least there isn't a double standard.

 

[Wombat]

Actually, to my knowledge, the UHJ is also for other religions, so the Baha'is would not keep others out of government. They believe that in the future when all religions unite under their banner, the UHJ will expand to include other religions. Also yes, their attitude toward homosexuality does bother me, but they maintain that a Baha'i cannot mistreat or judge a gay person. Most Baha'is I've ever met don't actually condemn homosexuality, but look down on homosexuals wanting to "flaunt" in public, which they also discourage heterosexuals from doing, so at least there isn't a double standard.

"Bother" you?....Mate!....I'm a 53yo hetrosexual Australian male with three kids who has been >in< the Baha'i community for three decades and I'm horrified by what I'm seeing and hearing.

The Baha’i Administrative Order deems Homosexuals to be-an “"abomination", "sinful", “mental illness”,” against nature”, a “handicap”, “homosexuality is an abnormality, ... a great problem for the individual so afflicted” , a committing of ”satanic deeds”,(Even though they don’t believe Satan exists !?)

Homosexuals are, according to discussion with online Baha’is- “abnormal”, “harmful”, a “defect” and “problem”...just like “cleft palates, clubfeet” and “alcoholism”.


“The Baha'i Faith teaches that homosexual behavior is unacceptable among its members. Voting rights of some of their lesbian, gay and bisexual members (LGB) who are out of the "closet" have been suspended; some memberships have been terminated.” www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bah.htm


“LGBTI Let us live in Peace." Text of a mask worn during a protest in Kampala, Uganda, seeking an end to persecution of lesbians, gays, bisexuals, transexuals, transgendered and intersex persons. Local >>>Baha'i<<<, Christian and Muslim leaders urged the government to arrest the protestors”
‘Religious Tolerance’org www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bah.htm


"Baha'is would not keep others out of government"?

According to the Baha'is I have been in discussion with there will be no "others"... >"everyone"< will be a Baha'i. All the Gays will have joined up (because they want to lead a life of celibacy and/or be considered an “abomination”?) and all the other religions, atheists, non Baha'is and ex Baha'is have joined up because...?......."Resistance is futile...you will be assimilated”....Borg Baha’is say so?
:run:

 

[Wombat]

I have a love/hate relationship with the Baha'i Faith... Baha'u'llah gave many good ideals and examples of how to bring to pass a unity of all religions under one umbrella of tolerance and love. Not once did he believe in bringing people of all religions to automatically become Baha'is, but rather to intellectually investigate his claim as the latest Manifestation of God for this age.

Contrast that to his followers that began to organise and shape the (Haifan) Baha'i Faith into its present day governance system via the 'Universal House of Justice.' This is due to Shoghi Effendi in one of these Baha'i lineages, and I personally believe that it has ruined the liberal ideals of the Faith. Instead of consorting with people of differing religions, the goal of the Haifan Baha'is is to convert everyone into their governing system, and anyone who claims to be a Baha'i without the UHJ in their lives and on the enrollment, is not a 'true Baha'i.'

Mate!.......I'm sooo glad your still around!
And so glad to hear your voice of reason.
I’m not ashamed to admit that last night I sat and wept at the fundamentalist crud I was hearing from Baha’is. So thank you again for your reply...it was the “reality check” I desperately needed.
In haste....I will throw this in the mix to affirm what you have already stated-
[All the best...]

Fundamentalism in the Contemporary U.S. Baha'i Community*​

Juan R. I. Cole,University of Michigan
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~jrcole/bahai/2002/fundbhfn.htm

[Quotes from former Baha’is]

As I recall, growing up [in the 1950s and 1960s], the idea that Local Spiritual Assemblies would be the governments of the future was always in the air." But it was always being debated." Frankly, Shoghi Effendi's statements about this issue are contradictory and confusing, and I remember as a teenager first having doubts about the matter precisely for that reason." I remember [one person] going around in the 1980s insisting that the Baha'i institutions would take over the world by the end of the century." And I remember thinking that [this was irrational] . . . Anyway, my memory is that this matter of just what role the Baha'i institutions would play in a future world was always rather fluid . . ." and that there was a range of opinion on the subject. (Pers. Comm. 22 May 2000)."
Another liberal Baha'i, this one from the Midwest, recalled,
in the Faith in the 70's and 80's there was not much discussion about a theocracy, there was talk of the Baha'i Commonwealth and a world superstate . . ." but not that the Baha'is would be in charge of the government." In fact it was quoted to me by older Baha'is that if the government was offered to the Baha'is we were to refuse to accept it--a quote from Abdu'l Baha . . . I had left the Faith for three years in the '90's and came back in around '96 . . .only recently, within the past eighteen months has there been a discussion about the Baha'i Theocratic State, apparently a current member of the UHJ and the US NSA are proffering this to the rank and file . . .(Pers. Comm., 23 May 2000).

A former office assistant to Counselor Florence Mayberry, wrote,"
I became a Baha'i in 1949 and remained one through most of the 70's." When I resigned, no one asked why! . . yet I had been active, known by "major figures" in Wilmette and in Haifa . . ." I felt we were developing a theocracy; then someone gave a speech at a national convention and plainly said that was our goal." There was not one outcry, not one smidgen of discussion about that as far as I knew. I loved Baha'is; I loved the universal qualities of the faith, but I, in no way, wanted to help build a theocracy (Pers. Comm., 21 February 1999)."

 

[Gaura Priya]

Actually, to my knowledge, the UHJ is also for other religions, so the Baha'is would not keep others out of government. They believe that in the future when all religions unite under their banner, the UHJ will expand to include other religions. Also yes, their attitude toward homosexuality does bother me, but they maintain that a Baha'i cannot mistreat or judge a gay person. Most Baha'is I've ever met don't actually condemn homosexuality, but look down on homosexuals wanting to "flaunt" in public, which they also discourage heterosexuals from doing, so at least there isn't a double standard.

Umm... I am going to have to argue against that. Sitting for hours in meetings to increase the Baha'i clusters, reviewing musical firesides, continual practice of Anna's Presentation for non-Baha'is, the orgau etc. is complete evidence that the Universal House of Justice and the National Spiritual Assemblies of the world are using Ruhi and other hidden means to proselytise.

When one becomes a UHJ believer, one must have complete adherence to the Administrative Order and leave their former organisations, both religious and political, despite how former Baha'is still attended their local spiritual places of worship even after accepting Baha'u'llah's claim as the next Manifestation of God.

Having been part of the Haifan Organisation for only a year, I can not say too much. However, I can claim that this is was the current prevailing attitude of the Haifan Baha'is less than a decade ago.

I am sure that the Baha'i Faith, under the pressure of changing social circumstances all over the world, will also change its beliefs regarding homosexuality since Baha'u'llah never ever explicitly condemned it. However, its present stance of viewing it as an aberration to the norm of creation causes many of its followers to recommend pseudo-treatments of homosexuals popularised by Evangelical Christians, such as Exodus International.

As a former Haifan Baha'i and a present-day homosexual. it's a lonely life to have to be celibate for life and to see yourself as an abnormality or neurological deviation.

 

[Gaura Priya]

Mate!.......I'm sooo glad your still around!
And so glad to hear your voice of reason.
I’m not ashamed to admit that last night I sat and wept at the fundamentalist crud I was hearing from Baha’is. So thank you again for your reply...it was the “reality check” I desperately needed.
In haste....I will throw this in the mix to affirm what you have already stated-
[All the best...]

Dude! It's nice to hear from you again as well!

Thank you for the quotes... I still wonder about the reason why Kalimat Press was conpletely shunned back when I was a Baha'i, as well as the continuous flow of resignations over the years, such as Juan Cole and Sen McGlinn. I feel like the Haifan Faith is losing some of its beautiful treasures of souls through its desire to censor Baha'i history, and I am saddened by that. :sad4:

I pray that the ideals of the Cause will change in the future into a world-embracing, world-encompassing religious community one day!

Allah'u'Abha,
madanbhakta.

 

[Meow Mix]

Here's a solution, just vote me for planetary Empress and I'll be Plato's philosopher queen (minus the prescribed death for atheists).

 

[Wombat]

Dude! It's nice to hear from you again as well!
Thank you for the quotes... I still wonder about the reason why Kalimat Press was conpletely shunned back when I was a Baha'i, as well as the continuous flow of resignations over the years, such as Juan Cole and Sen McGlinn. I feel like the Haifan Faith is losing some of its beautiful treasures of souls through its desire to censor Baha'i history, and I am saddened by that. :sad4:
Allah'u'Abha,
madanbhakta.

Hey little buddy! How ya doing?....Hope this finds you happy and well.
I’m a bit slow in responding and keeping up...it’s high summer here and much of ‘The Driest Continent on Earth’ is under water...colossal floods...must have something to do with all that ‘Global Cooling’ business.....?....;-)
Thanks again for your response...I had made the near fatal mistake of spending summer holiday time engaging fundamentalist Baha’is in online discussion...here’s the full horror show and I’m neither proud nor embarrassed to be losing the plot with them-
http://community.beliefnet.com/go/thread/view/43851/26596589/Bahais_displaying_prejudice
(I’m ‘Mr Bear’....My teenage kids tell me that handle has “Gay connotations”....ah well... C'est la vie ;-)

Re Professor “Juan Cole”.....great and tragic loss to any community...”Sen McGlinn” I understand to have been ‘Dis Enrolled’ rather than resigned. Likewise Alison Marshal, ‘Expelled’-
Baha'i Mysticism
and a host of others either pushed out, disenrolled or expelled without Due Process/Fair Hearing.
Re ‘Dialogue’ Baha’i Magazine I believe the following says it all.... When a “philosophy and religious studies Professor” and “Distinguished Professor of Law Director of the Center on Alternative Dispute Resolution” both do a ‘Dummy Spit’ in the direction of your Organization it is time to take heed....or watch your reputation go down the toilet.
(Many thanks again for taking the time to respond...sometimes there are sooo many voices talking crap you think you’re going mad...a little sane human and humane contact such as yours can make all the difference...much appreciated ;-)


"In March 2006, philosophy and religious studies Professor Dann May[6] and his wife[7] Phyllis E Bernard, current Robert S. Kerr Jr. Distinguished Professor of Law Director of the Center on Alternative Dispute Resolution, Oklahoma City University[8] received correspondence from the National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of the United States, questioning the couple's desire to leave the organization, and seeking to arrange for representatives of the National Spiritual Assembly to fly to May and Bernard's residence for further discussions regarding their withdrawal. May and Bernard's reply is cited below:


From: COMMUNITY [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2006 10:01 AM
To: May, Dann
Subject: Request to meet with you
Importance: High


Mr. Dann May


Dear Baha'i Friend,


The National Spiritual Assembly has tried twice to reach you and your wife by phone at the only phone number we have for you, so we hope that this email address is current. The National Assembly was sorry to learn of your desire to withdraw from membership in the Baha'i Faith and would like to hear in fuller form the thoughts you expressed in your January letter.


To that end it has asked that two representatives fly to Norman, OK on Saturday, March 18 to meet with you and your wife at a time that is convenient for you. We hope that you will be agreeable to sharing your perspectives and concerns with these representatives and ask that you kindly reply at your earliest convenience so that airline tickets may be purchased.


With loving Baha'i greetings,
Marie Scheffer
For the Office of the Secretary


...............Reply-


To all those concerned:


Perhaps you don’t understand – we already view ourselves as no longer members of the Baha’i community and we regularly attend Unitarian and Buddhist activities.


We do not present ourselves as Baha’is and do everything we can, when people try to introduce us as Baha’is, to politely disabuse them of that perception.


We have not attended feast in over a year, or for that matter, any other official Baha’i activity.


I think that it would be best for all those concerned, that we simply be allowed to withdraw.


We are deeply disillusioned with the unofficial and official Baha’i views on the war in Iraq, with the rise of Baha’i fundamentalism and intolerance and with the growing “ghettoization” of the Baha’i community in general.


We increasingly feel unwelcome at Baha’i events where everything seems to be scrutinized by rather mindless “Ruhi Book” mentalities rather than thoughtful discussions of the Baha’i Sacred Texts.


One-size-fits-all mass theology serves to only alienate anyone and everyone who wishes to pursue spiritually inspired and independent investigations of the truth. There appears to be, these days, little room or toleration for Baha’i scholars, Baha’i scholarship, or thoughtful approaches to the Baha’i sacred texts.


We are outraged over the Kalimat Press decision! We are, therefore, increasingly embarrassed to be associated with the Baha’i community. We often hear from our colleagues in the academic world, that they too perceive the Baha’i community as increasingly becoming more and more fundamentalist, alarmist, and cultish.


We are not interested in talking to anyone from the National Center and we will not meet with them, even if they come to Norman. Please do not send your representatives to Norman.


Use the funds for their plane tickets to do some good at one of the Baha’i schools or to feed the homeless. Please let us get on with our lives. Your response only convinces us more completely that the Baha’i community has become an authoritarian and fundamentalist movement.


Most religious scholars’ perceptions of cults are that they make it difficult for members to resign or leave the community with their reputations intact – please don’t confirm our suspicions! Let us resign and withdraw quietly and without fanfare or with inquisition-like exit interviews. We are willing to leave the Baha’i community without recriminations, regrets, or active criticisms on our part. Please let us fade from the Baha’i community as gently and as quietly as possible.


Sincerely,


Dann May and Phyllis Bernard

I pray that the ideals of the Cause will change in the future into a world-embracing, world-encompassing religious community one day!.

Maaaaaaaaaate! (See movie 'Nimo';-)....."I pray that the ideals of the Cause "- Love, the Independant Investigation of Truth, the end of prejudice, the essential unity of humanity...JUSTICE- The Best Beloved of All Things in His Sight...will be renewed, restored and realized.

You take care brother.

All the best.

Rod.

 

[Luminous]

But you do have a theocrazy, its called: the Bahai religion.

 

[Sen McGlinn]

Indeed, may a day as described never come to pass as the oppression sounds like it would be horrific.

No threat. The Bahai teaching is actually that civil law takes precedence over religious law, not vice versa as was said. The only exception is that there is a religious duty of disobedience, if the civil law or civil authority requires a Bahai to join a political party (as happened under the Shah in Iran), to deny their Faith (happens in various Muslim countries, and formerly under communism), to participate in genocide (happened in Germany in WW2, most of the Bahai community were imprisoned or killed). Even in these cases, the Bahai practice civil disobedience, but they do not attempt to impose their laws on anyone else. Religious law only makes sense if it is something the individual voluntarily binds him/her self to apply, to him/her self.

Law in the normal civil sense, with courts and enforcement and prisons etc., is not a something Bahais as a religious community have any ambitions to control. As individual citizens they naturally are under the law and participate in democratic processes if these exist. Baha'u'llah writes:

The one true God, ... hath ever regarded, and will continue to regard, the hearts of men as His own, His exclusive possession. All else, whether pertaining to land or sea, whether riches or glory, He hath bequeathed unto the Kings and rulers of the earth. ... The instruments which are essential to the immediate protection, the security and assurance of the human race have been entrusted to the hands, and lie in the grasp, of the governors of human society. This is the wish of God and His decree…. .” (Gleanings, CII 206-7)

and

Regard for the rank of sovereigns is divinely ordained, as is clearly attested by the words of the Prophets of God and His chosen ones. He Who is the Spirit (Jesus) — may peace be upon Him — was asked: “O Spirit of God! Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar or not?” And He made reply: “Yea, render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s and to God the things that are God’s.” ... And likewise in the sacred [Quranic] verse: “Obey God and obey the Apostle, and those among you invested with authority.”
(Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 89)

and much more in the same vein, see
Compilation on Church and State «                   Sen McGlinn&#039;s blog

 

[Sen McGlinn]

Actually, to my knowledge, the UHJ is also for other religions, so the Baha'is would not keep others out of government. They believe that in the future when all religions unite under their banner, the UHJ will expand to include other religions.

No. Although there is one passing reference to a future parliament of world religions, I think in an unauthenticated talk of Abdu'l-Baha, there is no Bahai plan to include other religions in the House of Justice, or to make the House of Justice a government. Only enrolled adult Bahais can vote for and serve on the House of Justice, at any level. Abdu'l-Baha put it in his Will and Testament:

And now, concerning the House of Justice ... it must be elected by universal suffrage, that is, by the believers. ... By this House is meant the Universal House of Justice, that is, in all countries a secondary House of Justice must be instituted, and these secondary Houses of Justice must elect the members of the Universal one. ...
(Abdu'l-Baha, The Will and Testament 14)

The Houses of Justice at every level are responsible only for the "church government", for the affairs of the Bahais as a religious community. Shoghi Effendi writes:

“Theirs is not the purpose, while endeavoring to conduct and perfect the administrative affairs of their Faith, to violate, under any circumstances, the provisions of their country’s constitution, much less to allow the machinery of their administration to supersede the government of their respective countries.”
(Shoghi Effendi, in The World Order of Baha’u'llah 66.)

“... all matters without any exception whatsoever, regarding the interests of the Cause in that locality … should be referred exclusively to the Spiritual Assembly … unless it be a matter of national interest, in which case it shall be referred to the national body. … By national affairs is not meant matters that are political in their character, for the friends of God the world over are strictly forbidden to meddle with political affairs in any way whatever, but rather things that affect the spiritual activities of the body of the friends in that land.” (Shoghi Effendi, in Unfolding Destiny 8)

Naturally if a country has many Bahais, many of its judges, politicians and policemen are likely to be Bahais. So what? America has had a long series of Christian Presidents, but has not turned into a theocracy. Baha'i, like Christianity, has the separation of church and state as a religious doctrine (Render unto Caesar, quoted by Baha'u'llah, cited in bold in my previous posting).

"Good fences make good neighbours" as the saying goes (Robert Frost has a great poem on the theme). Providing the political system recognizes the independence of the religious sphere and does not interfere in matters of belief, and the religious authorities accept the Render unto Caesar principle, it is possible for the political and religious agencies to work together.

 

[Gaura Priya]

"O SON OF DESIRE!

How long wilt thou soar in the realms of desire? Wings have I bestowed upon thee, that thou mayest fly to the realms of mystic holiness and not the regions of satanic fancy. The comb, too, have I given thee that thou mayest dress My raven locks, and not lacerate My throat."

-- Hidden Words of Baha'u'llah, II:79

*sigh*

 

[tarasan]

Here's a solution, just vote me for planetary Empress and I'll be Plato's philosopher queen (minus the prescribed death for atheists).

nah i think ill pass Miss Mix,

cause u be crazy!

 

[Wombat]

No threat...Law in the normal civil sense, with courts and enforcement and prisons etc., is not a something Bahais as a religious community have any ambitions to control.

Dear Sen
I understand and agree with what you are saying based on the Baha&#8217;i writings...my problem/issue (and that of other Baha&#8217;is/ ex Baha&#8217;is) is what many Baha&#8217;is are believing/saying on the basis of Baha&#8217;i cultural expectation...i,e,-

&#8220;The basic idea is that someday when everybody has become a Bahá'í in some country, it will be governed by Bahá'ís. That's not an issue, it's just practical common sense.
What's the big deal? Who else would govern? Would they have to import people who are not Bahá'ís to rule, so that some folks who are alarmed by this today, won't be scared?&#8221;

The (agreed) notion that &#8220;Law in the normal civil sense, with courts and enforcement and prisons etc., is not a something Baha&#8217;is as a religious community have any ambitions to control.&#8221; Does not at all seem to square or jell with-&#8220; when everybody has become a Bahá'í in some country, it will be governed by Bahá'ís&#8221;... &#8220;Who else would govern?&#8221;...&#8221; import people who are not Bahá'ís to rule,&#8221;

To &#8220;govern&#8221; and &#8220;rule&#8221; indicate (pretty dam clearly) the intent, desire, expectation to someday &#8220;govern&#8221; and &#8220;rule&#8221;...a Baha&#8217;i Theocracy...........perhaps I&#8217;m missing something? ;-)

And from SE?..UHJ?-
" will gradually produce the institutions of an ordered society, fulfilling not merely the function of the churches of the past but also the function of the civil state"



Personally...as a Baha&#8217;i of three decades...I am >FAR MORE IN FAVOUR< of the Meow Mix for &#8216;planetary Empress&#8217; option.

Seriously.

Highly recomended reading-

Compilation on Church and State « ******************Sen McGlinn's blog

All the best.

 

[BruceDLimber]

The various folks reading and participating in this thread should be aware that what Sen has posted is accurate and correctly presents the Baha'i perspective.

But unfortunately, one or two other individuals here are hostile to the Baha'i Faith and its institutions and are therefore trying to issue put-downs of various aspects of the Faith and sow discord.

I therefore recommend that anyone interested in seeing an ACCURATE picture of the Baha'i Faith and its teachings visit web sites such as these two, which are official and present clear facts about the Faith:

• http://www.bahai.org

• Bahai Faith | Baha'i Faith | United States Official Website

Peace,

Bruce

 

[Gaura Priya]

But unfortunately, one or two other individuals here are hostile to the Baha'i Faith and its institutions and are therefore trying to issue put-downs of various aspects of the Faith and sow discord.

I therefore recommend that anyone interested in seeing an ACCURATE picture of the Baha'i Faith and its teachings visit web sites such as these two, which are official and present clear facts about the Faith.

Bruce,

I am not hostile to the Baha'i Faith in its conception as a religion and its spiritual practices.

However, when I see prejudice amongst its members, and its attempt to put a monopoly on the Faith, I see wrong right there, just as the National Spiritual Assembly of the Haifan Baha'i Faith tried to trademark the religious label "Baha'i" against the Orthodox Baha'is... and lost.

Here is a website dedicated to the Baha'i Faith, its factions, history and a more liberal alternative: The Unitarian Bahai Association: A Liberal Bahai Faith Community

Accuracy can only be said when all representations are brought out in an objective light. If one is going to present the Baha'i Faith, it should include ALL of its factions: Haifan Baha'i Faith, Orthodox Baha'i Faith, the Unitarian Baha'i Faith, Baha'is under the Provisions of the Covenant, Heart of the Baha'i Faith, etc.

Thank you for labelling both Wombat and I in 'sowing discord;' rather we want people to know that being a Baha'i does NOT necessarily mean being part of the Haifan Baha'i Faith.