Back to Catholicism?

[shunyadragon]

False. According to the "Catechism of the Catholic Church", those outside the fold who do not have a good understanding of the teachings of the church may indeed be saved.

False, specifically the Catechism does not say "those outside the fold who do not have a good understanding of the teachings of the church may indeed be saved." Your not citing the Catechism, but your personal opinion.

The Catechism says, ". . . those outside the fold with no knowledge of the one true church may also be saved, as well as those under the age of consent."

 

[metis]

Like others, yu need to provide references, and not assertions from your own personal opinion.

I provided specific citations from the Roman Church Catechism, and Pope Francis has made no statement that these are not the teachings of the church.

First of all, I did not say that PF said that they were not the teachings of the church, but that he put forth his own analysis. Also, looking it up and quoting the Catechism would take to much time for me today. However:

Since Jesus established the Catholic Church as necessary for salvation, those who knowingly and willingly reject him or his Church cannot be saved. We see this in Jesus’ teaching: "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters" (Mt 12:30). Also: "f he [a sinning brother] refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector" (Mt 18:17). Paul warned similarly: "As for a man who is factious, after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is perverted and sinful; he is self-condemned" (Ti 3:10-11).

Having said all this, we must recognize that this doctrine is not as far reaching as some imagine it to be. People will sometimes ask, "Does this means non-Catholics are going to hell?" Not necessarily.

The Church recognizes that God does not condemn those who are innocently ignorant of the truth about his offer of salvation...

Vatican II document Gaudium Et Spesteaches similarly on the possibility of salvation:

All this holds true not only for Christians, but for all men of good will in whose hearts grace works in an unseen way. For, since Christ died for all men, and since the ultimate vocation of man is in fact one, and divine, we ought to believe that the Holy Spirit in a manner known only to God offers to every man the possibility of being associated with this paschal mystery.-- What "No Salvation Outside the Church" Means | Catholic Answers

 

[metis]

Actually, the litmus test in the Roman Church is the 'sincerity' of the belief in the teachings of the Roman Church and faithfully perform the Sacraments.

Well, let me next deal with what Pope Francis has said:

P>LOS ANGELES, CA (Catholic Online) - The Holy Father is full of surprises, born of true and faithful humility. On Wednesday he declared that all people, not just Catholics, are redeemed through Jesus, even atheists.

However, he did emphasize there was a catch. Those people must still do good. In fact, it is in doing good that they are led to the One who is the Source of all that is good. In essence he simply restated the hope of the Church that all come to know God, through His Son Jesus Christ...

Francis explained himself, "The Lord created us in His image and likeness, and we are the image of the Lord, and He does good and all of us have this commandment at heart, do good and do not do evil. All of us. 'But, Father, this is not Catholic! He cannot do good.' Yes, he can... "The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ, all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! 'Father, the atheists?' Even the atheists. Everyone!" We must meet one another doing good. 'But I don't believe, Father, I am an atheist!' But do good: we will meet one another there..." -- Pope Francis says atheists can do good and go to heaven too! - Living Faith - Home & Family - News - Catholic Online

 

[metis]

False, specifically the Catechism does not say "those outside the fold who do not have a good understanding of the teachings of the church may indeed be saved." Your not citing the Catechism, but your personal opinion.

The Catechism says, ". . . those outside the fold with no knowledge of the one true church may also be saved, as well as those under the age of consent."

Huh? That's saying the same thing!

 

[metis]

I disagree, being Created unique and without sin, precludes any consideration of Mary Mother of God as anything other than a lesser God acting on the authority of the Greater God.

Please do show us where Catholic theology teaches or even implies that Mary is a "lesser god".

Here's a working definition from Dictionary.com: (lowercase) one of several deities, especially a male deity, presiding over some portion of worldly affairs.

Notice the words "presiding over some portion of world affairs". Do Catholics believe Mary does this? The answer is no. And "being without sin" does not intrinsically make one a "god".

Also, "Mother of God" is a reference to Mary being Jesus' mother.

So, I'm done with this as what Catholics do actually believe in this arena has been spelled out, along with the simply fact that Catholics do have the flexibility of personal interpretation and beliefs.

 

[columbus]

I think this battle between various non-Christians over what the Church really is has gone far past appropriate for an intro thread of any sort, much less a poster who has only posted once.

I hope we haven't scared @Theist off, but given him a fascinating view of how freewheeling the conversations get here on RF.

But I am outta here unless Theist asks me for input of some kind.
Tom

 

[metis]

I think this battle between various non-Christians over what the Church really is has gone far past appropriate for an intro thread of any sort, much less a poster who has only posted once.

I hope we haven't scared @Theist off, but given him a fascinating view of how freewheeling the conversations get here on RF.

But I am outta here unless Theist asks me for input of some kind.

I agree with you in spirit, but also some good may come out of this exchange in negating some long-held highly-condemning beliefs held by some that still are circulating around.

@Theist came forth with what I feel was a heart-felt post, and my participation in this was to give him/her rest assurance that one does not have agree 100% with Catholic teachings to be a Catholic.

 

[shunyadragon]

First of all, I did not say that PF said that they were not the teachings of the church, but that he put forth his own analysis, which I'll try and find tome to cover later. Also, looking it up and quoting the Catechism would take to much time for me today. However:

Since Jesus established the Catholic Church as necessary for salvation, those who knowingly and willingly reject him or his Church cannot be saved. We see this in Jesus’ teaching: "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters" (Mt 12:30). Also: "f he [a sinning brother] refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector" (Mt 18:17). Paul warned similarly: "As for a man who is factious, after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is perverted and sinful; he is self-condemned" (Ti 3:10-11).

Having said all this, we must recognize that this doctrine is not as far reaching as some imagine it to be. People will sometimes ask, "Does this means non-Catholics are going to hell?" Not necessarily.

The Church recognizes that God does not condemn those who are innocently ignorant of the truth about his offer of salvation...

Vatican II document Gaudium Et Spesteaches similarly on the possibility of salvation:

All this holds true not only for Christians, but for all men of good will in whose hearts grace works in an unseen way. For, since Christ died for all men, and since the ultimate vocation of man is in fact one, and divine, we ought to believe that the Holy Spirit in a manner known only to God offers to every man the possibility of being associated with this paschal mystery.-- What "No Salvation Outside the Church" Means | Catholic Answers

This very much confirms what I have cited. Of course, from the fallible human perspective we do not know who is saved and who is not, what is ultimately in the hearts of humans, and yes, only God knows: we ought to believe that the Holy Spirit in a manner known only to God offers to every man the possibility of being associated with this paschal mystery.

This does not change the matter of fact of what is necessary for salvation, especially for all those over the age of consent who have knowledge of the one true church.

 

[shunyadragon]

Please do show us where Catholic theology teaches or even implies that Mary is a "lesser god".

The claim that she is the Mother of God.

Here's a working definition from Dictionary.com: (lowercase) one of several deities, especially a male deity, presiding over some portion of worldly affairs.

Bad male chauvinist definition

Notice the words "presiding over some portion of world affairs". Do Catholics believe Mary does this? The answer is no. And "being without sin" does not intrinsically make one a "god".

Mary has the power to preside over the intersession of prayers between humans and God.

Also, "Mother of God" is a reference to Mary being Jesus' mother.

True and Jesus is also considered a God, therefore, "Mother of God."

So, I'm done with this as what Catholics do actually believe in this arena has been spelled out, along with the simply fact that Catholics do have the flexibility of personal interpretation and beliefs.

The Doctrine and Dogma of the Roman Church is not open to interpretation.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

You people are ruining this thread with pointless bickering. I would be shocked if the OP ever posts again on this site, when this is their "welcome". Shameful.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

So, I'm done with this as what Catholics do actually believe in this arena has been spelled out, along with the simply fact that Catholics do have the flexibility of personal interpretation and beliefs.

Haters gonna hate. I wouldn't bother with anti-Catholic types because their minds are already made up. That they want to wreck this thread from someone seeking advice shows their true spirit. Don't feed it.

 

[shunyadragon]

Well, let me next deal with what Pope Francis has said:

P>LOS ANGELES, CA (Catholic Online) - The Holy Father is full of surprises, born of true and faithful humility. On Wednesday he declared that all people, not just Catholics, are redeemed through Jesus, even atheists.

However, he did emphasize there was a catch. Those people must still do good. In fact, it is in doing good that they are led to the One who is the Source of all that is good. In essence he simply restated the hope of the Church that all come to know God, through His Son Jesus Christ...

Francis explained himself, "The Lord created us in His image and likeness, and we are the image of the Lord, and He does good and all of us have this commandment at heart, do good and do not do evil. All of us. 'But, Father, this is not Catholic! He cannot do good.' Yes, he can... "The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ, all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! 'Father, the atheists?' Even the atheists. Everyone!" We must meet one another doing good. 'But I don't believe, Father, I am an atheist!' But do good: we will meet one another there..." -- Pope Francis says atheists can do good and go to heaven too! - Living Faith - Home & Family - News - Catholic Online

This is a second source, please note the highlighted, which ends in . . .

Being good in this concept here is leading ". . .to the One who is the Source of all that is good. In essence he simply restated the hope of the Church that all come to know God, through His Son Jesus Christ..."

This is how salvation is believed in the Roman Church regardless of how one previously believed. They are obviously not saved in the present state of being atheist, or whatever. Of source all are potentially saved, but they first must 'come to know God, through His Son Jesus Christ..." in the one true church.

 

[shunyadragon]

You people are ruining this thread with pointless bickering. I would be shocked if the OP ever posts again on this site, when this is their "welcome". Shameful.

The facts and the truth are not shameful, but hypocracy, dishonesty, and Duck, Bob, and Weave concerning the true Doctrine, Dogma and the beliefs of the Roman Church are shameful.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

The facts and the truth are not shameful, but hypocracy, dishonesty, and Duck, Bob, and Weave concerning the true Doctrine, Dogma and the beliefs of the Roman Church are shameful.

 

[shunyadragon]

 

[omega2xx]

Depends on who is making the claim. The Roman Church clearly and specifically claims it is the ONLY one true church. They got St. Peter's keys.

Truth never depends on someone's claim.

Other churches make variable claims, such as most Methodists believe that all those that believe in the Apostles Creed represent the Universal (Catholic) church. The Mormans (LDS) claim they are the one true church.

As good as it is, the Apostle's Creed does not determine the true church.

The true church is not a building or a denomination. Many years ago a Catholic theologian coined the phrase "the invisible church." It consist of all who have put their faith In Jesus Christ. That is the true church

 

[omega2xx]

Obvious as the sky is Carolina Blue on a clear day at noon on the 4th of July. Of course science does not 'prove' anything.

Science proves many things, but proving spiritual concepts is way out of its pay grade.

Without faith it is impossible to please God.

 

[omega2xx]

Science doesn't need to prove the existence of God, the existence of the Creation does that.

Right, the heavens are declaring the glory of God/

Science is how you find out about God, the only reliable way we humans have.

Science has nothing to do with God.

By investigating His Creation we can learn about the Creator.
Tom

Only by investigating His word and with prayer can we find the truth about God.

 

[David T]

Hi, this is the first time I have posted here. I have been involved in a Pagan group for the last few years. I had always been interested in ancient history and ancient mythology and thought Paganism would be more fulfilling than Catholicism. The problem I have with Catholicism is there is a series of beliefs you are expected to believe and I am not sure if I agree with all of them. There is also the religious doctrine, which I believed was not accepting of gay people among others. Magic and the Occult was interesting, but that is not the primary reason I was drawn to Paganism.

But there is no denying that the occult is a large part of Paganism, and I can't put my finger on it, but there is something dark about the whole thing. I don't think I can be a part of it anymore. That is a shame because most of my friends are in paganism so I will have to make new friends. So the question is, do I go back to Catholicism? The issues I found to be problematic are still there in Catholicism, despite the new Pope. But I went to a Catholic Mass recently, ad I just got the feeling that this is where I belong. It is just a feeling but it is a strong one. Otherwise I can consider other religions, but I am not sure how much time I have left, and I have already been initiated into the religion in Baptism, and had my confirmation. I have to get going, I work the midnight shift, but what do you all think about this?

I say be a subversive in the faith dont be a subverted to the faith. Hell all mystics in the Catholic tradition are subversive in nature subverting the intellectual towards the experienced. Very non theogical actually. St. francis is actually an animist in personna and experience, and the biggest theological pagan in the faith and historically the most favorite!!! Btw he wasn't much for how things are suppose to be. Be St. Francis fr. Thomas Berry certainly was. Be that catholic.

 

[metis]

Francis of Assisi - Wikipedia