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[shunyadragon]

Is the one true church the Catholic church?

Depends on who is making the claim. The Roman Church clearly and specifically claims it is the ONLY one true church. They got St. Peter's keys.

Other churches make variable claims, such as most Methodists believe that all those that believe in the Apostles Creed represent the Universal (Catholic) church. The Mormans (LDS) claim they are the one true church.

 

[shunyadragon]

Science can't prove the existence of God.

Obvious as the sky is Carolina Blue on a clear day at noon on the 4th of July. Of course science does not 'prove' anything.

 

[columbus]

Science can't prove the existence of God.

Science doesn't need to prove the existence of God, the existence of the Creation does that. Science is how you find out about God, the only reliable way we humans have. By investigating His Creation we can learn about the Creator.
Tom

 

[metis]

Actually no, The Roman Church defines membership in the church and salvation specifically as salvation ONLY by those who are sincerely believe in the Roman Church and follow the sacraments. Every thing else is window dressing. The only provision beyond this is universal salvation for sincere ones below the age of consent, and those with no knowledge of the one true Roman Church.

False. According to the "Catechism of the Catholic Church", those outside the fold who do not have a good understanding of the teachings of the church may indeed be saved. And the current pope has taken even further by stating that not only can other Christians even familiar with Catholic teachings probably can be saved. He believes that members of other religions, and possibly even moral atheists, may also be saved.

Again, regardless of what the church may teach, there's plenty of room for individual discernment that's allowed, and for some reason you just don't seem to grasp that.

 

[metis]

Actually no, The Roman Church defines membership in the church and salvation specifically as salvation ONLY by those who are sincerely believe in the Roman Church and follow the sacraments. Every thing else is window dressing. The only provision beyond this is universal salvation for sincere ones below the age of consent, and those with no knowledge of the one true Roman Church.

I don't want to keep going down this derailment of an intro thread. But I have spent my entire life extremely aware, both from an insiders perspective and an outsiders. The way you are describing it is not the Mother Church I know. It sounds more like someone who has learned about the church from Protestant sources.
Tom

And that's also my impression, Tom.

 

[metis]

Mary Mother of God Created without sin is defined as a Goddess by any definition you choose.

A "goddess" has power, and the RCC does not believe that she should be prayed to, only through, such as what's stated in the Rosary.

 

[metis]

Depends on who is making the claim. The Roman Church clearly and specifically claims it is the ONLY one true church. They got St. Peter's keys.

No, but that used to be the case. In more recent times, the RCC has the belief that those churches that followed through with apostolic succession (Orthodox, Anglican, Coptic) are part of the "true church" as the divisions between them were caused mostly by political disputes, much less by theological disputes.

Secondly, belong or not belonging to the "true church" is not the litmus test for salvation.

 

[shunyadragon]

False. According to the "Catechism of the Catholic Church", those outside the fold who do not have a good understanding of the teachings of the church may indeed be saved. And the current pope has taken even further by stating that not only can other Christians even familiar with Catholic teachings probably can be saved. He believes that members of other religions, and possibly even moral atheists, may also be saved.

Again, regardless of what the church may teach, there's plenty of room for individual discernment that's allowed, and for some reason you just don't seem to grasp that.

False, and you need citations like I provided to back up these assertions concerning what one or the other Popes say. I know that ever Pope including the present Pope issues a homily confirming the belief on salvation: "Outside the Church there is no salvation" (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus) is the core belief of the Roman Church.

 

[metis]

False, and you need citations like I provided to back up these assertions concerning what one or the other Popes say. I know that ever Pope including the present Pope issues an encyclical confirming the belief on salvation.

I did not mention any encyclical, and I cited one of my sources already, namely the Catechism. If you want to play this "citation" game, since you are the one who made these erroneous accusations, then you go first with you citations.

BTW, I am neither Catholic nor Christian, but I have studied Catholic theology for decades now (long story), including taking two Catholic theology classes back during my undergrad years. What you have been citing are theologies that are out of touch with both what is being officially taught, in some cases, or what is currently being put out by recent popes, especially Pope Francis.

But either way, I have to repeat that personal theological beliefs that go against what the church officially teaches are an individual's right. One of the Catholic books I read years ago was "May Your (Informed) Conscience Be Your Guide", and this was it's main theme. IOW, study and learn Catholic theology, but then your beliefs and your decisions are yours as you are ultimately responsible for what you decide.

 

[shunyadragon]

No, but that used to be the case. In more recent times, the RCC has the belief that those churches that followed through with apostolic succession (Orthodox, Anglican, Coptic) are part of the "true church" as the divisions between them were caused mostly by political disputes, much less by theological disputes.

Secondly, belong or not belonging to the "true church" is not the litmus test for salvation.

Like others, yu need to provide references, and not assertions from your own personal opinion.

I provided specific citations from the Roman Church Catechism, and Pope Francis has made no statement that these are not the teachings of the church.

Still waiting . . .

 

[columbus]

False, and you need citations like I provided to back up these assertions concerning what one or the other Popes say. I know that ever Pope including the present Pope issues a homily confirming the belief on salvation: "Outside the Church there is no salvation" (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus) is the core belief of the Roman Church.

You pay more attention to the Pope than most of the USA Catholics I know.
Tom

 

[shunyadragon]

I did not mention any encyclical, and I cited one of my sources already, namely the Catechism. If you want to play this "citation" game, since you are the one who made these erroneous accusations, then you go first with you citations.

I do not believe you have cited the Catechism supporting your assertions. My citations are clear and specific, except for provisions I cited; 'There is no salvation outside the Roman Church.

BTW, I am neither Catholic nor Christian, but I have studied Catholic theology for decades now (long story), including taking two Catholic theology classes back during my undergrad years. What you have been citing are theologies that are out of touch with both what is being officially taught, in some cases, or what is currently being put out by recent popes, especially Pope Francis.

But either way, I have to repeat that personal theological beliefs that go against what the church officially teaches are an individual's right. One of the Catholic books I read years ago was "May Your (Informed) Conscience Be Your Guide", and this was it's main theme. IOW, study and learn Catholic theology, but then your beliefs and your decisions are yours as you are ultimately responsible for what you decide.

It is not an issue whether you are a member of the Roman Church. The above remains second hand and anecdotal. Nothing above provides any citation that reflects specifically the Doctrine and Dogma of the Roman Church.

References please, still waiting . . .

 

[shunyadragon]

You pay more attention to the Pope than most of the USA Catholics I know.
Tom

This is a fallacy of popularity and personal opinion, for which there is no logical response. Personal opinion does not determine the Doctrine and Dogma of the Roman Church. Also, the beliefs and views of those outside the church carry no validity either. Actually, the Catechism is the authority, of the Doctrine, Dogma, and teachings of the Roman Church, which I cited specifically.

 

[shunyadragon]

And that's also my impression, Tom.

Again, personal opinions, impressions, and popularity polls do not have any bearing on the facts of the Doctrines and Dogmas of the Roman Church. The Catechism of the Roman Church is the authorative document for the Doctrine, Dogma, and teachings of the Roman Church.

 

[columbus]

This is a fallacy of popularity and personal opinion, for which there is no logical response.

Which is a very protestant thing to say. The RCC is vast and diverse and the OP may well find a home in his local congregation, due to not being as legalistic as you are.
He apparently already left the Church for a more pagan religious community. Returning to his home tradition might be a very good thing for him. I don't claim to know, because I don't know him. But you obviously don't know what modern Western Catholics do and believe as well as you think you do. It's a hugely diverse and welcoming organization.
Tom

 

[shunyadragon]

Which is a very protestant thing to say. The RCC is vast and diverse and the OP may well find a home in his local congregation, due to not being as legalistic as you are.
He apparently already left the Church for a more pagan religious community. Returning to his home tradition might be a very good thing for him. I don't claim to know, because I don't know him. But you obviously don't know what modern Western Catholics do and believe as well as you think you do. It's a hugely diverse and welcoming organization.
Tom

It is most definitely not being legalistic. It is a matter of the reality and honesty of what the Roman Church actually teaches. Unfortunately our society is dominated by the pragmatism and hypocracy avoiding reality in exchange for the coozy comfort self-fullfilling personal beliefs. It would be best to join the UU's where this free wheeling humanism believe as you wish is a very real belief. Every believer that received the Sacrament of Confirmation, accepts the Catechism as the factual Doctrine and Dogma of the Roman Church.

While the adults are upstairs philosophizing over their reassuring pragmatism, the Catechism is being taught word for word to children in the basement of every Roman Church.

 

[shunyadragon]

Secondly, belong or not belonging to the "true church" is not the litmus test for salvation.

I sort of missed this. Actually, the litmus test in the Roman Church is the 'sincerity' of the belief in the teachings of the Roman Church and faithfully perform the Sacraments.

 

[columbus]

It is most definitely not being legalistic. It is a matter of the reality and honesty of what the Roman Church actually teaches.

What you seem unable to grasp is that the vast majority of USA Catholics are steeped in our culture of freedom of conscience and personal liberty and don't pay any more attention to the Vatican than the USA government. I am a gay atheist and I get along just fine with most of the local Catholics.
Tom

 

[shunyadragon]

What you seem unable to grasp is that the vast majority of USA Catholics are steeped in our culture of freedom of conscience and personal liberty and don't pay any more attention to the Vatican than the USA government. I am a gay atheist and I get along just fine with most of the local Catholics.
Tom

I am a Baha'i and get along with most believers of the Roman Church, and gay atheists. Personally as a Baha'i I get along better with Unitarians, because their belief in the diversity of religious expression and humanism is are more honest about their belief, and the luke warm pragmatism and hypocracy is not the rule in the guise of welcoming all regardless of what one believes.

Actually, if your under the naive delusion that our culture of freedom of conscience and personal liberty is somehow the standard in our country regardless of which church one belongs to, you need to come back down to earth, and look seriously at the trends in religious beliefs in this country over riding our culture of freedom of conscience and personal liberty.

"Welcome to my humble home and make yourself comfortable," said the Black Widow to the grasshopper.

 

[shunyadragon]

A "goddess" has power, and the RCC does not believe that she should be prayed to, only through, such as what's stated in the Rosary.

I disagree, being Created unique and without sin, precludes any consideration of Mary Mother of God as anything other than a lesser God acting on the authority of the Greater God.