Back to Catholicism?

[columbus]

This a fine nice, warm and comfortable approach to the Roman Church, but not in touch with the reality and history of the church.

I tend to approach the RCC and it's issues the same way I approach my country, the USA.
There are zillions of things about the history and reality of this country that absolutely make me retch. But not only do I hugely appreciate our many strong points and potential for improvement, it's my country. It just is and even if I moved to France or something it will always be my country, warts and all.
Tom

 

[shunyadragon]

Will they ever learn?

Finely hewn hardest darkest of woods,
Marble and granite finest columns and truss,
Holy hopes of past glory
Incense mask, ashes and dust

Will they ever learn?

Ancient halls grand and vast,
Ring hollow and cold past glories
Echo in fine stone and glass
over musty ashes and dust.

Will they ever learn?

Illusions of saints, heroes, gargoyles’ and demons,
In spires reaching for heaven, fearing hell
in cracks green and gray
only bats and pigeons dwell

Will they ever learn?

What could they be?
Museums or galleries
Of use to all, thee and me,
or subdivided for the homies

Will they ever learn?

Ashes on the forehead and nose
and the fate of all in the ground
Ring around the rosey pocket full of posies
Ashes! Ashes! All fall down

Will they ever learn?

Not too hot nor too cold
Soft and warm is a cozy fete.
When mediocrity reigns,
No one gets wet.

Will they ever learn?

Nice and polite, comfort and graces.
Of course. every one may choose their own,
Comfort chooses the past dust and ashes
and claim the only truth their own .

Will they ever learn?

Pick and choose the shoes that fit.
What pleases thee may not please me.
Worn paths of dust and ashes these shoes take.
The shoes of comfort are not the fit for thee nor me.

Will they ever learn?

From age to age,
the past can never be again
Again and again, calls to awaken,
bells peal and echo the past no change again.

Will they ever learn?

. . . that impermanence reigns.

Where shall we go?
What shall we fete?
Take off your hat and shoes
walk in the rain and get wet!

The Orange Dog Poet
Frank A. Doonan

 

[shunyadragon]

But the same thing is found in the RCC but is handled in a different way-- per my last post. The church is teaching what it thinks is right but allows individual discernment as long as no conflict with others occurs [see post #13].

Actually no, The Roman Church defines membership in the church and salvation specifically as salvation ONLY by those who are sincerely believe in the Roman Church and follow the sacraments. Every thing else is window dressing. The only provision beyond this is universal salvation for sincere ones below the age of consent, and those with no knowledge of the one true Roman Church.

 

[omega2xx]

Problem from the fallible human perspective is that which God is one looking for. By far most people cling to the God of their peers, which is a problem since there are so many different Gods people looking for, and finding.

Diogenes is sill looking.

How do you know you have found God?

 

[shunyadragon]

I tend to approach the RCC and it's issues the same way I approach my country, the USA.
There are zillions of things about the history and reality of this country that absolutely make me retch. But not only do I hugely appreciate our many strong points and potential for improvement, it's my country. It just is and even if I moved to France or something it will always be my country, warts and all.
Tom

This issue I already covered as it is egocentric to think that one must believe in 'everything' any particular church nor religion. We definitely do need to go beyond the human fallible warts,

 

[shunyadragon]

How do you know you have found God?

In all humility I do not know, but there are indeed problems with many many people finding a different God or God(s), and by far most choose the God of their peers.

I have sort came to the tentative conclusion that IF there is a God, then God is more universal than the doctrines and beliefs of any one religion nor church.

 

[columbus]

Actually no, The Roman Church defines membership in the church and salvation specifically as salvation ONLY by those who are sincerely believe in the Roman Church and follow the sacraments. Every thing else is window dressing. The only provision beyond this is universal salvation for sincere ones below the age of consent, and those with no knowledge of the one true Roman Church.

I don't want to keep going down this derailment of an intro thread. But I have spent my entire life extremely aware, both from an insiders perspective and an outsiders. The way you are describing it is not the Mother Church I know. It sounds more like someone who has learned about the church from Protestant sources.
Tom

 

[omega2xx]

In all humility I do not know, but there are indeed problems with many many people finding a different God or God(s), and by far most choose the God of their peers.

That is a pretty good view. I have humbly come to the conclusion that if the Bible is true, I have found the only true God. IMO, much of the Bible's teachings are beyond mans ability to imagine. For example I know of no other religion that teaches its member to love their enemies.

have sort came to the tentative conclusion that IF there is a God, then God is more universal than the doctrines and beliefs of any one religion nor church.

I have reached the final conclusion that the God of the Bible is the only true God and that when the doctrines of God found in the Bible are understood, it will show they are universal. I am not saying i understand them all or that i even know them all.

 

[shunyadragon]

I don't want to keep going down this derailment of an intro thread. But I have spent my entire life extremely aware, both from an insiders perspective and an outsiders. The way you are describing it is not the Mother Church I know. It sounds more like someone who has learned about the church from Protestant sources.
Tom

Derailment is not an issue here. Anyone considering the Roman Church needs to know the facts.

I was raised in the Roman Church and considered Priesthood in the Saint Francis Order.

Read your catechism, or even the Vatican II documents.

"Outside the Church there is no salvation" (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus) is the core belief of the Roman Church.

"As we have seen, God introduced salvation to the world through his chosen people, the Jews. God’s revelation to the Jews found its fulfillment in Christ, the Messiah, who established the Catholic Church. The grace necessary for salvation continues to come from Christ, through his Church. Those who innocently do not know and embrace this might still attain salvation but those who knowingly and willingly choose to reject it, reject salvation on God’s terms."

The Catechism (once again quoting Lumen Gentium) summarizes all this as follows:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. (CCC 846)

As I said before their provisions for sincere ones ignorant of the one true church, and those below the age of consent.

 

[Spiderman]

Hi, this is the first time I have posted here. I have been involved in a Pagan group for the last few years. I had always been interested in ancient history and ancient mythology and thought Paganism would be more fulfilling than Catholicism. The problem I have with Catholicism is there is a series of beliefs you are expected to believe and I am not sure if I agree with all of them. There is also the religious doctrine, which I believed was not accepting of gay people among others. Magic and the Occult was interesting, but that is not the primary reason I was drawn to Paganism.

But there is no denying that the occult is a large part of Paganism, and I can't put my finger on it, but there is something dark about the whole thing. I don't think I can be a part of it anymore. That is a shame because most of my friends are in paganism so I will have to make new friends. So the question is, do I go back to Catholicism? The issues I found to be problematic are still there in Catholicism, despite the new Pope. But I went to a Catholic Mass recently, ad I just got the feeling that this is where I belong. It is just a feeling but it is a strong one. Otherwise I can consider other religions, but I am not sure how much time I have left, and I have already been initiated into the religion in Baptism, and had my confirmation. I have to get going, I work the midnight shift, but what do you all think about this?

Just go where the grace is. You don't have to believe in everything the Catholic Church believes. I don't. I just go to the Mother of God and experience peace and joy at the darkest times, so know that I should keep praying the Rosary and going to mass, because I get positive results from it.

Follow your heart over Dogma. Pray the Rosary or just pray some of your own prayers on the Rosary beads. Write your prayers on paper and recite them. Scripture says "Ask and yea shall receive... you have not because you ask not".

I'd recommend reading a book called "True Devotion to Mary" by Saint Louis DeMontfort, and consecrating yourself to Mary. That book is the surest, quickest, easiest way to Christian perfection.

The blessed Mother welcomes you to her sweet, celestial bosom.
Welcome Home, friend!

 

[ZooGirl02]

You should go back to the Catholic Church and try to understand and believe the teachings of the Catholic Church. If you wish, I can give you some good websites where you can read up on the teachings of the Catholic Church.

 

[Alison Wonderland]

Not if your looking for God.

Why?

 

[JustWondering]

Hi, this is the first time I have posted here. I have been involved in a Pagan group for the last few years. I had always been interested in ancient history and ancient mythology and thought Paganism would be more fulfilling than Catholicism. The problem I have with Catholicism is there is a series of beliefs you are expected to believe and I am not sure if I agree with all of them. There is also the religious doctrine, which I believed was not accepting of gay people among others. Magic and the Occult was interesting, but that is not the primary reason I was drawn to Paganism.

But there is no denying that the occult is a large part of Paganism, and I can't put my finger on it, but there is something dark about the whole thing. I don't think I can be a part of it anymore. That is a shame because most of my friends are in paganism so I will have to make new friends. So the question is, do I go back to Catholicism? The issues I found to be problematic are still there in Catholicism, despite the new Pope. But I went to a Catholic Mass recently, ad I just got the feeling that this is where I belong. It is just a feeling but it is a strong one. Otherwise I can consider other religions, but I am not sure how much time I have left, and I have already been initiated into the religion in Baptism, and had my confirmation. I have to get going, I work the midnight shift, but what do you all think about this?

Why do your friends need to follow the same religion you follow?

Atheism is easier, if a god out there really wants me to believe in them they know where I am.

 

[shunyadragon]

Just go where the grace is. You don't have to believe in everything the Catholic Church believes. I don't. I just go to the Mother of God and experience peace and joy at the darkest times, so know that I should keep praying the Rosary and going to mass, because I get positive results from it.

Follow your heart over Dogma. Pray the Rosary or just pray some of your own prayers on the Rosary beads. Write your prayers on paper and recite them. Scripture says "Ask and yea shall receive... you have not because you ask not".

I'd recommend reading a book called "True Devotion to Mary" by Saint Louis DeMontfort, and consecrating yourself to Mary. That book is the surest, quickest, easiest way to Christian perfection.

The blessed Mother welcomes you to her sweet, celestial bosom.
Welcome Home, friend!

Too many Gods to go to.

 

[Spiderman]

Too many Gods to go to.

There's only one God in Catholicism but he works through Mary and the Saints.

 

[shunyadragon]

There's only one God in Catholicism but he works through Mary and the Saints.

Unfortunately doe not reflect the reality of the Roman Church. Mary Mother of God Created without sin is defined as a Goddess by any definition you choose. The Trinity is a classic example of Tritheism. This is indeed a Roman/Hellenist polytheistic belief system, which departs from the essential Monotheism of Judaism, Islam and the Baha'i Faith.

 

[Spiderman]

Unfortunately doe not reflect the reality of the Roman Church. Mary Mother of God Created without sin is defined as a Goddess by any definition you choose. The Trinity is a classic example of Tritheism. This is indeed a Roman/Hellenist polytheistic belief system, which departs from the essential Monotheism of Judaism, Islam and the Baha'i Faith.

Mary would not be defined as a Goddess because she has a creator. I can see your point about Tritheism However.

 

[shunyadragon]

Mary would not be defined as a Goddess because she has a creator. I can see your point about Tritheism However.

The concept of lesser Gods and the supreme God, the lesser Gods need not be a Creator. This is consistent with the hierarchial polytheism of Vedic traditions and early Hebrew polytheism.

 

[omega2xx]

Derailment is not an issue here. Anyone considering the Roman Church needs to know the facts.

I was raised in the Roman Church and considered Priesthood in the Saint Francis Order.

Read your catechism, or even the Vatican II documents.

"Outside the Church there is no salvation" (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus) is the core belief of the Roman Church.

"As we have seen, God introduced salvation to the world through his chosen people, the Jews. God’s revelation to the Jews found its fulfillment in Christ, the Messiah, who established the Catholic Church. The grace necessary for salvation continues to come from Christ, through his Church. Those who innocently do not know and embrace this might still attain salvation but those who knowingly and willingly choose to reject it, reject salvation on God’s terms."

The Catechism (once again quoting Lumen Gentium) summarizes all this as follows:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. (CCC 846)

As I said before their provisions for sincere ones ignorant of the one true church, and those below the age of consent.

Is the one true church the Catholic church?

 

[omega2xx]

Why?

Science can't prove the existence of God.