Those people in the videos likely aren't very smart if you ask me.
Implying that the animals are?
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Those people in the videos likely aren't very smart if you ask me.
I think religious beliefs impact greatly on how humans treat animals and each other. Bible believers e.g. see humans as superior to animals intellectually, creatively and in many other ways....with moral capacity, conscience, empathy, imagination, concept of past, present and future.....we are superior to animals....even those who appear to be similar to ourselves. How we use those qualities however, is another story.
The Bible’s narrative places humans as representatives of the Creator here, overseeing the lives of other animals as fellow inhabitants of planet earth, to act as caretakers for them. No other creature displays this capacity. Those in the animal kingdom govern their lives and activities largely by pre-programmed instinct. (which to me is a strong indicator of an Intelligent Programmer) This ensures their survival and man was supposed to be their guardians to make sure that their environment could sustain them and correct anything that got out of balance in some way.
The Bible also explains why humans lost their capacity to represent the Creator in this important role, and why we now treat both animal and human life as expendable if we have a selfish or justifiable motive for mistreating or killing them.
In ancient cultures such as the American Indians, respect for the life of an animal consumed as food was always shown. The Great Spirit was thanked for the provision of food for the tribe and every part of the animal served a purpose...nothing was wasted. The Provider, as well as the animal was always given due respect.
If we treat animals as the Creator intended, then we will co-exist with them and give them the respect they deserve. The videos you provided demonstrate that we have an enormous capacity for peaceful co-existence with animals (even wild animals) and other humans, if we see them as the Creator does. Not as enemies to be hunted down, or killed for sport, or used for experimentation known to deliberately produce suffering for reasons of vanity in the cosmetic industry.
If humans cannot respect human life, how can we expect them to value animal life?
Respect for all life should be the norm......but humans got carried away with their own importance and ruined everything. I have a strong belief that all things will be restored to the way they should be, in the very near future.
The little girl in the bonus segment at the end could have been me. Seriously, I can see myself in that child so clearly. I really don't have words to express the love I feel for animals. They make life worth living, and I owe so much to them (even to the little kitten which, as I type, is trying to climb up my legs to get in my lap an digging her claws into me as she does). When I wake up each morning and look into the six little eyes of my furry kids, my heart absolutely bursts with love for them.
I'm not an "either/or" type of person. How I treat a dolphin will be different than how I treat a worm. I feel "personhood" is a spectrum, not a concrete thing, much like how life becomes vague and ill-defined when you get to the point of viruses and such. I try not to step on bugs but I won't cry if I do accidentally because I'm bigger than them and sometimes it's unavoidable. I don't prefer getting rid of ant colonies because I figure ant colonies prevent termite colonies, what with territorial-ism and stuff. I think any nonhuman who exhibits a personality or passes the mirror test should be counted as a person, even if we don't give full civil rights (not because I don't think they deserve it, but I wonder why nonhumans would even CARE since they don't participate in our abstract government). I can't stop from killing lifeforms. My immune system kills microscopic lifeforms I'm unaware of. I can only try "damage control".
We altered our psychology through culture, but our neurology and psychology remains largely Pleistocene. our civilized behavior is a veneer.
You can dress an ape in a tuxedo and teach it which fork to use, but deep down, it remains an ape.
In fact, historically it's been used to excuse and justify all manner of exploitation and cruelty. We remain tribal. Scratch the surface and we're killer apes.
Ethology does show an innate sense of 'morality' in many animals, but clearly our facility in overriding it when expedient is evidence of its shallowness.
I am well aware of how the Bible believers and other Abrahamic religious believers view animals as superior to humans. One cannot deny that humans are more intelligent and have other qualities that the non-human animals do not have, but I very much dislike the whole idea that humans are superior. Of course, one of the religious arguments is that only humans can know and love God so that makes them better, and I do not go for that one either.
Why did (a purportedly benevolent) God create animals only to allow them to suffer and die, sometimes horrible deaths? That is what the Bible believers and all the others who believe what they do need to answer.
Unfortunately, any answers they come up with will be what the nonbelievers call religious apologetics.
I can understand how many religions would see it this way, our stewardship over other life, but it seems to me that all the rest of life would get on fine if we never existed.
This poem sums it up for me:
There Will Come Soft Rains by Sara Teasdale
There will come soft rains and the smell of the ground,
And swallows circling with their shimmering sound;
And frogs in the pools singing at night,
And wild plum-trees in tremulous light;
Robins will wear their feathery fire
Whistling their whims on a low fence-wire;
And not one will know of the war, not one
Will care at last when it is done.
Not one would mind, neither bird nor tree
If mankind perished utterly;
And Spring herself, when she woke at dawn,
Would scarcely know that we were gone.
Considering the real possibility of being mauled or killed. Yes. The human is definitely dumber than the animal.Implying that the animals are?
True that, but in the case of other animals they have few behavioral options. They aren't true moral agents.All animals put their needs above other species' needs, we just have more harmful ways we are able to exercise this I suppose.
Probably true, but who would be around to admire the sunsets and the natural beauty of this earth? I have never seen an animal express appreciation for aesthetic beauty...have you? Any reaction to what we see as beautiful in a living things is more like a trigger to perpetuate their species....it is not done consciously or planned.
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Considering the real possibility of being mauled or killed. Yes. The human is definitely dumber than the animal.
True, it will be slow progress, but I'm wondering about those animals a bit closer to humans. Will we get to understand them better such that we treat them rather differently before possibly wiping them out?
Many of them don't have much time for slow progress unfortunately. I'm very pessimistic on orang-utans surviving. Too much money to be made from timber and palm oil, and no will from the powers that be to stop it.
To drive through Sumatra to their habitat, you drive for several hours of palm oil plantations that used to be pristine rainforest. These plantations have a limited life span so more keep needing to be created.
Orang-utans are killed as pests if they go onto these plantations, others kill the mother to take the baby to sell as a pet.
Some of this is caused by greed, some is caused by poverty. I doubt things will change soon.
I know! Seeing videos of animals who are "supposed to" be enemies, but who love one another just gets to me. You know, if they can do it, why can't we humans?Hard not to see them enriching our live so much is it. What I find so intriguing, apart from the various facets of behaviour so much like humans, is the tolerance and cooperation often seen between different animal species. That too is so very endearing.
Well, you've got to do something about that!We had a cat when I was very young but I've not had any pets in later life.
The Moral Status of Animals (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
"Is there something distinctive about humanity that justifies the idea that humans have moral status while non-humans do not? Providing an answer to this question has become increasingly important among philosophers as well as those outside of philosophy who are interested in our treatment of non-human animals. For some, answering this question will enable us to better understand the nature of human beings and the proper scope of our moral obligations. Some argue that there is an answer that can distinguish humans from the rest of the natural world. Many of those who accept this answer are interested in justifying certain human practices towards non-humans — practices that cause pain, discomfort, suffering and death. This latter group expects that in answering the question in a particular way, humans will be justified in granting moral consideration to other humans that is neither required nor justified when considering non-human animals. In contrast to this view, an increasing number of philosophers have argued that while humans are different in a variety of ways from each other and other animals, these differences do not provide a philosophical defense for denying non-human animals moral consideration. What the basis of moral consideration is and what it amounts to has been the source of much disagreement."
As many might have gleaned from my avatar, I do have a particular interest in our attitudes to other life, particularly those closer to humans in many ways. So not just a cheeky monkey then, although if seen this way I wouldn't be too offended!
The question then is, to what extent does any religious belief affect how you view other life on Earth, particularly those seemingly displaying many of the things that we tend to take for granted as being in the human realm, such as - intelligence, social bonding, morality, ability to interact meaningfully with other species (not just eating them!), etc., and is there any conflict between what you believe compared with any religious teaching?
For myself, I think we will possibly be at a turning point over the next decades, since we are continually discovering much about animal behaviour and life so as to challenge any previous thinking and how we should treat other species, especially those showing very human-like traits and/or behaviour. There is even the possibility, for example, that AI might be the breakthrough into animal communication, with us perhaps be able to do this with some of the species displaying language skills quite similar to our own. And of course there are huge implications as to how we should treat other life when we do discover so much more about them.
The other life forms. Plants in particular get a lot out of sunshine.Probably true, but who would be around to admire the sunsets and the natural beauty of this earth?
I live on a hill. My dogs like to go up the hill in the backyard and stare at the surroundings in the valley below.I have never seen an animal express appreciation for aesthetic beauty...have you?
How would being human be any different? I'm sure pretty sunsets get some people in the mood.Any reaction to what we see as beautiful in a living things is more like a trigger to perpetuate their species....it is not done consciously or planned.
So am I. However, I think it would be interesting to see if teaching them how to cook and stuff and see if that speeds up evolution a bit.Many of them don't have much time for slow progress unfortunately. I'm very pessimistic on orang-utans surviving. Too much money to be made from timber and palm oil, and no will from the powers that be to stop it.
All I can say is the Darwin Awards awaits new nominees.Obviously the humans in these encounters had a suspicion that the various animals could remember them and still have the same feelings towards them as they did when younger. The interesting thing is that it does appear to be the case across a wide spectrum of species, even the really dangerous animals. We know that most of this is probably down to imprinting, but even so, it must tell us something that this occurs across so many species and that they can suppress any natural tendencies to see us as food.
I believe in evolution, so since animals were on earth long before humans I do not see how humans could have been the original caretakers... I do agree that we are their caretakers or we should be when that is necessary, and since we have a higher intelligence that is why we have been entrusted to do so.You are free to believe whatever you like. Humans were originally placed here as caretakers.....they were supposed to represent the Creator and were given the necessary qualities to reflect his standard of care. No animals worships the Creator, only we do that. But something went horribly wrong at the beginning and all of this planet's inhabitants are worse off because of it.
I agree with that in part. One reason we suffer in this world is because we are alienated from God, but it is also the nature of the material world to cause suffering. Moreover, this world was created for us to live in temporarily, but it certainly is not our permanent home, and it is just a small part of our total existence. In that sense many of my religion say we should not complain and rather endure, but clearly some have to endure more than others. I could go on and on about that but this thread is about animals, not humans. Suffice to say, animals are one reason I am able to endure this world, although that is a double-edged sword because whet we love we lose eventually. The only solution to that is to live in the present and take things as they come.Trailblazer said: Why did (a purportedly benevolent) God create animals only to allow them to suffer and die, sometimes horrible deaths? That is what the Bible believers and all the others who believe what they do need to answer.
Deeje said: The Bible answers that for us. This is not the world that God created for us....this world with all it suffering is the creation of man alienated from his Creator. I though that man's inhumanity to man was all that was needed to prove this. His treatment of animals is sometimes better that his treatment of fellow humans.
I know. That is my line when I talk to nonbelievers. It makes no logical sense for an All-Knowing and All-Powerful God to have a complaint department.I have no need of apologetics....the Bible provides all the answers I need. If they don't for you, then what is left to be said.....? I don't think the Creator has a "Complaints Department".
I do not value animals more than humans, although I usually prefer their company. But I like the company of humans on forums, so I can have my cats and humans simultaneously, given my cats are right here all the time. I often have to move my laptop and mouse around to accommodate my Ellie because she insists on getting on my table.If you value animals more than humans, I can see why this can be the case for some people....but here in Australia feral cats, dogs, pigs, camels, water buffalo and horses are damaging the ecology in ways that are proving to be very detrimental to the native species. All those are introduced animals that have been dumped in bushland or desert regions to run wild and breed, wreaking havoc on the delicate balance of nature. Humans did that too. Aren't we just the best caretakers ever?
The other life forms. Plants in particular get a lot out of sunshine.
I live on a hill. My dogs like to go up the hill in the backyard and stare at the surroundings in the valley below.
I think it would be interesting to see if teaching them how to cook and stuff and see if that speeds up evolution a bit.
I believe in evolution, so since animals were on earth long before humans I do not see how humans could have been the original caretakers... I do agree that we are their caretakers or we should be when that is necessary, and since we have a higher intelligence that is why we have been entrusted to do so.
I do not believe that anything went horribly wrong since I do not believe in “The Fall” but I rather believe that humans are born good, with the ability to reflect all the attributes of God.
After we are born we are able to choose between good and evil and we become differentiated by the free will choices they make which are based upon a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. That is when can and often do go wrong, often horribly wrong. Nevertheless, the world is full of good people who reflect the attributes of God.
this world was created for us to live in temporarily, but it certainly is not our permanent home, and it is just a small part of our total existence.
Suffice to say, animals are one reason I am able to endure this world, although that is a double-edged sword because whet we love we lose eventually. The only solution to that is to live in the present and take things as they come.
But that does not mean we cannot complain sometimes... Here in America we call it venting... God hears us even if He does not make any alterations.
One could argue that if humans were always kind to animals then there would be no animal suffering, but that does not solve the problem of animals in the wild.
Some humans should know better than to breed just because they want to, especially when they do not have the emotional or financial means to take care of them. Humans in some countries also overpopulate the planet by having way too many children.