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Attitudes to non-human life and how religious belief might affect this

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
I do not value animals more than humans, although I usually prefer their company. But I like the company of humans on forums, so I can have my cats and humans simultaneously, given my cats are right here all the time. I often have to move my laptop and mouse around to accommodate my Ellie because she insists on getting on my table. :)
Perhaps you might be able to advise me about accommodating my cats on my keyboard when I'm trying to type. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. :)[/QUOTE]
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The Golden Rule, or its inverse as many would choose, does seem to underlie most religious beliefs anyway. I would agree with this but with the addition of Kant's point - act by that maxim which you can at the same time will as a universal law. But both might be seen as rather open to interpretation.
There is indeed a great deal of interpretation and qualification one has to always make to the Golden Rule and Kant's categorical imperative or any simple moral statement. It seems moral facts are invariably complex.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The little girl in the bonus segment at the end could have been me. Seriously, I can see myself in that child so clearly. I really don't have words to express the love I feel for animals. They make life worth living, and I owe so much to them (even to the little kitten which, as I type, is trying to climb up my legs to get in my lap an digging her claws into me as she does). When I wake up each morning and look into the six little eyes of my furry kids, my heart absolutely bursts with love for them.
I've never really expressed the sentiment that "[animals] make life worth living," but it is true for me too, at least in some sense. It is nice to come across other people who are as goofy about animals as I am.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Perhaps you might be able to advise me about accommodating my cats on my keyboard when I'm trying to type. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. :)
Well, sometimes I just keep moving the laptop around to make room for her on the table upon which it rests. That works as long as she settles down and falls asleep. Lately though, she has decided to settle down under my chair instead of on the table, which has come as a welcome relief.
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One of my other cats, Princess, the one in my avatar, has been settling down on my feet under the table making it impossible for me to get up, so I have to call to my husband to bring me my coffee. :)
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
One of my other cats, Princess, the one in my avatar, has been settling down on my feet under the table making it impossible for me to get up, so I have to call to my husband to bring me my coffee. :)
I had a cat named Princess -- one of my all-time favorite kitties. :)
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Well, I can't say that I have (seen an animal do so) but I'm hardly qualified here - not being an animal behaviour expert - but I wouldn't rule it out of the question. And anyway, what exactly matters that we seem to be the only ones doing so.

Those who study animals see some similarities in animal behaviour compared to humans, but it is very clearly demonstrated that no other creature possesses the mental capacity that humans have. If evolution is true, why do we not see anything close to the same level of development in much older creatures?

There is no living being on this planet that compares to us. On every continent on earth, man’s impact on his environment and in his defence of his ‘territory’, is felt like no other.

Weighing up our culture and success against all animal life is a bit one-sided - and unfair. Why not go back several million years when we did not feel so cocky and ask the question then?

Since I have no belief that evolution of this magnitude ever happened, there is no question to be asked.
Those who believe what scientist ‘theorize’ have swallowed an unproven and unprovable bit of wishful thinking. What science can prove is ‘adaptation’, which is not evolution, but adaptive change in single taxonomic families of creatures. There is no proof whatsoever that evolution, on the scale proposed by scientists is even possible.....despite their protestations. There is nothing to substantiate their claims. It’s all suggestion.

We were just another species fighting it out with all the rest - and it seems we got lucky.

Lucky? Are you hearing yourself? Science has nothing to do with luck. If you think so, then you have never investigated the real facts. If you believe that chance mutations and countless adaptive changes can transform one living creature into another, then you are a victim of the power of suggestion. All that can be proven is that varieties of the same creature are produced. There are as many missing links in the “chain” of evolution as there ever were.

I truly don't see humans as being that significant in the larger scheme of things

I can’t believe you can say that. The significance of humankind is that they alone possess the capacity to completely wipe out all life on this planet....over something as ridiculous as who is more powerful.....seriously.....not significant?! :eek:

and not a religious one I might add - especially when we do know the extent of the universe, the number of galaxies, the number of stars, and the equally numerous number of planets. Are we really that special? It's taken us an awful long time to get where we are at the moment - if one believes the science.

The last part of that last sentence is the crux of all human belief and activity.
Its not “what”.....but “who” you believe.....and “why” you want to believe them. We all have to ask ourselves why we believe as we do. Who convinced us and what was the appeal? It is very telling.

Using the failure of religion to excuse the failure of science is a little indicative of where human intelligence, based on actual facts, can lead them. People have simply exchanged one unproven belief system for another. “Faith” plays a role in both.

If there is an Intelligent Designer of all things, who is standing back to observe what those unique human creatures (with whom he has endowed with his own qualities) are doing......what is he seeing?

Do you have faith in man to guarantee your future? I don’t. o_O

Without intervention by the Creator, humans will continue to trash this planet and find more heinous ways to kill each other. I am often ashamed to be a member of the human race. :(
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
All creation exhibits a certain degree of self-sufficiency, so just because humans were created last, is of no real consequence when we consider the overall picture of the Creator selecting one planet out of countless billions to begin habitation of material life forms. In the big picture, I see this selection as one of many in the future. There is no reason for him to stop populating this vast universe if he so desires. But all projects have to have a beginning....I believe that we are just the beginning, and that all contingencies had to be covered here first so that future plans can be accomplished, incident free. It is unrealistic to assume that this one insignificant speck is all there is to God's purpose for his material universe.
That is purely speculative of course.
I like both your imaginativeness and your optimism. I have the same kind of optimism for the human race and I also believe that there are other worlds besides this world. That is not merely speculation, it is in my scriptures:

In this passage, I think Baha’u’llah is referring to all the Prophets that have sacrificed their lives for the good of humanity, including the Prophets in the Bible:

“Absolute existence is strictly confined to God, exalted be His glory. Well is it with them that apprehend this truth. Wert thou to ponder in thine heart the behavior of the Prophets of God thou wouldst assuredly and readily testify that there must needs be other worlds besides this world.” Gleanings, pp. 157-158

Baha’u’llah affirms that there are other worlds besides this world and other creatures different from what we see in this world:

“As to thy question concerning the worlds of God. Know thou of a truth that the worlds of God are countless in their number, and infinite in their range. None can reckon or comprehend them except God, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise…..” Gleanings, pp. 151-152

“Verily I say, the creation of God embraceth worlds besides this world, and creatures apart from these creatures. In each of these worlds He hath ordained things which none can search except Himself, the All-Searching, the All-Wise. Do thou meditate on that which We have revealed unto thee, that thou mayest discover the purpose of God, thy Lord, and the Lord of all worlds. In these words the mysteries of Divine Wisdom have been treasured.” Gleanings, pp. 151-153


“Thou hast, moreover, asked Me concerning the nature of the celestial spheres. To comprehend their nature, it would be necessary to inquire into the meaning of the allusions that have been made in the Books of old to the celestial spheres and the heavens, and to discover the character of their relationship to this physical world, and the influence which they exert upon it. Every heart is filled with wonder at so bewildering a theme, and every mind is perplexed by its mystery. God, alone, can fathom its import. The learned men, that have fixed at several thousand years the life of this earth, have failed, throughout the long period of their observation, to consider either the number or the age of the other planets. Consider, moreover, the manifold divergencies that have resulted from the theories propounded by these men. Know thou that every fixed star hath its own planets, and every planet its own creatures, whose number no man can compute.” Gleanings, pp. 162-163

The only world humans can know is the earth world, but after we die we will discover the worlds beyond this one.

“If any man be told that which hath been ordained for such a soul in the worlds of God, the Lord of the throne on high and of earth below, his whole being will instantly blaze out in his great longing to attain that most exalted, that sanctified and resplendent station…. The nature of the soul after death can never be described, nor is it meet and permissible to reveal its whole character to the eyes of men.” Gleanings, p. 156

“The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation.” Gleanings, p. 157

And finally, my favorite passage:

“O My servants! Sorrow not if, in these days and on this earthly plane, things contrary to your wishes have been ordained and manifested by God, for days of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you. Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes. You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace. To each and every one of them you will, no doubt, attain.” Gleanings, p. 329

Whether animals will inhabit any of spiritual realms we cannot know. I can only hope they will be in the realm I go to. :)
How do you explain an all powerful being, capable of doing whatever he sets his mind to, creating living things with the propensity to go so horribly wrong? Man's inhumanity to man is monumental.....we humans are designed to reflect the Creator's attributes, but no one is born "good". Try not disciplining a toddler and see how much "good" they display. If we do not teach our children right from wrong at a very young age, then we have a recipe for anarchy. If there is no respect for authority...be that of parents, teachers, law enforcement or governments, what hope is there for turning out responsible adults capable of moral decisions and unselfishness? Think of the current generation as tomorrow's world leaders....
I see this world as a training ground for our future life in the spiritual world, this world is where we learn what we need to in order to acquire the spiritual attributes (character) we will need in the world to come (afterlife). If we do not acquire those attributes here we will be handicapped in the next world, just as a child who did not develop arms and legs in the womb. I do not believe any of our bad traits go with us so we will just not have anything if all we had was bad traits. That could be likened to hell, because we will no longer have the free will to acquire good traits. That does not mean we are stuck liken that for eternity, because we can advance in the world beyond by the prayers of others and the mercy of God, but it is better not to have to depend upon that since there is no guarantee of either one. God gave us this world and free will to acquire what we need to but those who have impediments through no fault of their own will not be held as responsible compared to those who were given much more. God is just so God will assist the former by His mercy, I cannot say what will happen to the latter.

I see no reason why God would not allow things to ever go wrong, but that does not mean God is responsible for what goes wrong, because God gave humans free will. When I say humans are born good I mean they are born as a clean slate, not with the taint of original sin on them. However, we are all born with a lower material nature and a higher spiritual nature, so in that sense we all have the propensity to sin. From birth forward humans make choices and differentiate themselves; we create our own destiny. God knows what humans will do before during and after they do it, but God does not cause human behavior; although God might intervene at times we cannot ever know if when and what God does so there is no point even thinking about it.
There are indeed many factors that contribute to a child's development, and who they will become as adults, but when you see those who fail at every level to demonstrate even a small amount of basic humanity.....what possible purpose could there be to their existence? What use does God have for them?
These things are not fully known. From this side of the divide between life and death we cannot know what lies in store for these people, and whether they will be able to change and progress after they die will be according to whether they realize the errors of their ways and reach out to God for His mercy. One thing we are told is that after they die the evil souls will be far from this world and will be unable to exert an influence upon it, as they can do while still alive. Also, since people will gravitate to the level of which they are worthy, good souls will not be anywhere near evil souls. We are also told that very elevated souls, often referred to as the Concourse in high and the company of God’s favored angels, exert a powerful influence on this world.

(Continued on next post)
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I totally disagree. There is nothing in Genesis to indicate a natural cause of death or an afterlife of any description.
I do not want to argue about that. It is the domain of science to address the natural cause of death, not religion. :) Regarding the afterlife, just because something is not written in the Bible does not mean it cannot be God’s Truth. It makes absolutely no sense to me that the first and last and only Truth from God is in the Bible, because man progresses over time and needs additional Truth from God. Moreover, I believe that humans existed before the Bible was written, and they had Prophets that guided them. That does not negate the older Truths because God’s Truth is God’s Truth, it just means we were ready for an update, kind of like on a computer, and this most recent update was critical for the survival of humanity and the whole planet.

So the afterlife as it was revealed by Baha’u’llah is “new” and different from previous conceptualizations as they were revealed in previous dispensations. Humanity was not yet ready for this update 3000 or more years ago because humanity was too immature to understand it back then, but now we are ready and it can be understood. However, a veil to understanding is that most people cling to their older beliefs and understandings because it is more secure and comfortable for them, like an old pair of shoes. Because the Baha’i Faith was the first religion I ever had I did not ever know anything else or hear anything else about the afterlife, so the Baha’i version just made sense to me from the very beginning. It is like I got a new car and had never driven a really old car, so I probably would not want to drive a really old car because it would be uncomfortable and maybe even scary! But if I had never had a new car the old one would do me just fine, as long as it still ran. :)
The Bible offers only a choice between life and death......obey and live...disobey and die. God has no room in his purpose for rebels. If you cannot obey him, you will have no future in his plans. There is nowhere else to go. I think that is the very simple message from the scriptures.
There is Truth in those scriptures and the message was carried forward, although it is no longer as harsh, heaven or hell, as there are intermediate states of being. Thousands of years ago humans needed to be frightened into obedience to God because they were like small irascible children; but humanity as a whole has grown up and is at a spiritual level that enables them to understand why they should live good lives and love God... That might not include everyone because we are not there yet, where everyone knows and loves God, but we are way past the days of old when so many people disobeyed God. That is why new scriptures do not read like the Old Testament, with an angry punishing God. Please note that the God portrayed by Jesus in the New Testament is a lot nicer and that is because humanity had progressed by the time Jesus came to earth.
I do not believe that the Creator is the 'all-forgiving sop' that most people want to believe he is.
Well, I have to agree that God is not going to forgive everything as that is not in accord with justice. Baha’u’llah certainly mentions the wrath of God in many passages; although there is not much about hell in the Baha’i Writings and in fact this is the only passage I have run across.

“Say: He ordaineth as He pleaseth, by virtue of His sovereignty, and doeth whatsoever He willeth at His own behest. He shall not be asked of the things it pleaseth Him to ordain. He, in truth, is the Unrestrained, the All-Powerful, the All-Wise.

They that have disbelieved in God and rebelled against His sovereignty are the helpless victims of their corrupt inclinations and desires. These shall return to their abode in the fire of hell: wretched is the abode of the deniers!” Gleanings, pp, 284-285


However, Baha’i belief that hell is distance from God, not a geographical location like a Lake of Fire. Conversely, heaven is nearness to God, which is a state of the soul.
Death seems so wrong...even for our cherished pets. But it is inevitable. There was no everlasting life in God's plan for them. When humans were created, God made them different from the animals, in that they had an expectation to go on living indefinitely....death is not programmed into humankind because we were not created to die.
I agree that humans are different than animals in that they have an immortal soul. Baha’u’llah wrote that God created all men from one same substance, but God exalted the human reality above the rest of His creatures. Only humans have an immortal soul, but animals have a spirit. Whether that spirit survives death we will not know for certain until after we die.
When Adam and his wife succumbed to temptation in the garden, the one thing God provided to keep them alive forever, was withdrawn from them (Genesis 3:22-24).....they now had no superiority over the animals, as it says in Ecclesiastes 3:19-20....
"for there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit. So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile. All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust."

So just as all living creatures breathe the same air, so all go to the same place once breathing stops.
That is true, because those verses are referring to the physical body.
What is the point of God hearing if he makes no alteration? We might as well be venting to the wall.
Aha, but that is not necessarily true, that God makes NO alterations. God doeth whatsoever He willeth because God is All-Powerful. I have known God to answer my prayers, at least I think He did. o_O:confused: Those prayers were not always spoken, but God knew what I needed. Other times I have gotten really angry and I cried out. The next day something was different. :) So it is not as if God doesn’t help people, He just does it as His own behest and in His own time.
When we understand what is happening and what God is actively doing right now, it leaves no room for complaint. (Deuteronomy 32:4) God is doing exactly what he said he would do.
As you know, we disagree on what God will ultimately do, or rather as I believe what humans will do to build God’s Kingdom, but we all have our own beliefs, so we will just have to see how it pans out. I do not think either you or I will see that until long after we die, which of course means something different to you than it does to me. :D
What I often wonder is if I will see the people I posted to on forums not so I can say I told you so but just to chat. I will however say “I told you so” to myriad nonbelievers who have told me there is no afterlife, if I can find them. :oops: o_O
My favorite prophesy is in Isaiah....speaking about the rulership of the one who was sent by God to redeem obedient mankind, and to judge the world, it says.....
"And he will find delight in the fear of Jehovah
He will not judge by what appears to his eyes,
Nor reprove simply according to what his ears hear.

4 He will judge the lowly with fairness,
And with uprightness he will give reproof in behalf of the meek ones of the earth.

He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth
And put the wicked to death with the breath of his lips.


5 Righteousness will be the belt around his waist,
And faithfulness the belt of his hips.

6 The wolf will reside for a while with the lamb,
And with the young goat the leopard will lie down,
And the calf and the lion and the fattened animal will all be together;
And a little boy will lead them.

7 The cow and the bear will feed together,
And their young will lie down together.

The lion will eat straw like the bull.

8 The nursing child will play over the lair of a cobra,
And a weaned child will put his hand over the den of a poisonous snake.

9 They will not cause any harm
Or any ruin in all my holy mountain,
Because the earth will certainly be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah

As the waters cover the sea." (Isaiah 11:3-9)

This is what I believe a world ruled by God will mean.
I can certainly agree with that and I like the prophecies of Isaiah very much. I just do not believe these prophecies will come to pass the same way you believe it will come to pass, but we will just have to wait and see, although I do not think you or I will see the Kingdom of God fully unfold within our lifetimes.
In many such countries, poverty drives them to have as many children as they can because there is a chance that some of them may survive to support their parents in their old age. Poor nations do not care for the aged....families have to do that. We in the West do not understand that level of poverty, or what drives the survival instinct in creatures that were not designed for old age, sickness or death. None of that was ever in God's first purpose for humankind.
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I believe it will all be remedied according to the plan implemented back in Eden. All things will go back to the beginning, with lessons learned and precedents set for all time to come.
We have much to look forward to.
I can understand about poverty in other countries and why they have so many children but I do not think the solution is just to have more children. The solution is to equalize wealth and that is one of the primary principles of the Baha’i Faith, something new that Baha’u’llah revealed.

Of course as you know, I do not believe we will ever go back to the Garden of Eden, and I do not believe that anyone will live forever on this earth in a resurrected body, but there will be much for future generations to look forward to because this world will be like a paradise in the distant future... In keeping with Isaiah 11:6-9....

“God’s purpose is none other than to usher in, in ways He alone can bring about, and the full significance of which He alone can fathom, the Great, the Golden Age of a long-divided, a long-afflicted humanity. Its present state, indeed even its immediate future, is dark, distressingly dark. Its distant future, however, is radiant, gloriously radiant—so radiant that no eye can visualize it......” The Promised Day is Come, p. 116
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I like both your imaginativeness and your optimism. I have the same kind of optimism for the human race and I also believe that there are other worlds besides this world. That is not merely speculation, it is in my scriptures:

It makes little sense to me that the Creator would put intelligent life on other planets or "worlds" without first ironing out the 'kinks' (possible abuses) in the administration of free will in this one....which as we know from the Genesis account, free will was not entirely "free". It was free to be expressed but only within the boundaries set by the Creator. This was the catalyst for satan's challenge in Eden. They had a choice as to how to drive their own free will....and they each chose badly, but for different reasons. What can we learn from them and all the other Bible examples? Why do we think those examples are in there?

Whether animals will inhabit any of spiritual realms we cannot know. I can only hope they will be in the realm I go to. :)

Since animals are an integral part of human life and experience, they will always be a part of our existence to enhance it and to add another element of love. But since animals are not mentioned as part of a life in heaven, we can assume that the future for humans will be entirely physical. Animals were created first, so they belonged to this earth long before we came along. God designed us as their caretakers, so it will be an eternal arrangement.

I see this world as a training ground for our future life in the spiritual world, this world is where we learn what we need to in order to acquire the spiritual attributes (character) we will need in the world to come (afterlife)

Can you tell me why God would use a physical existence to train us for life in a spiritual realm? Do we have any reference to angels being former humans so that their lives were trained by a life here?

According to the book of Job, the angels were spectators to the creation of the material universe. (Job 38:4, 7) Angels are intensely interested in what God is doing here on this earth...anxious to see the outcome. (1 Peter 1:10-12) This is NOT a training ground for heaven and never was. The ancient Jews had no notion of going to heaven and no belief in any kind of afterlife except by a physical resurrection back to this earth under the Messiah's kingdom.

I do not believe any of our bad traits go with us so we will just not have anything if all we had was bad traits. That could be likened to hell, because we will no longer have the free will to acquire good traits.

Huh?
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Where do these ideas come from? Hell in the Bible is the grave...not some place for bad people to go. It is nothing more sinister than a restful place to sleep until the promised resurrection. (John 5:28-29) It is sleep with no conscious activity at all. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) Everyone goes there.

What makes you think free will is going to disappear? Angels have free will otherwise satan could not have rebelled. If we have bad traits, we need to work on them now, because our conduct and worship whilst we are alive will determine if we even make it into the new world to come. (2 Peter 3:13)

That does not mean we are stuck liken that for eternity, because we can advance in the world beyond by the prayers of others and the mercy of God, but it is better not to have to depend upon that since there is no guarantee of either one. God gave us this world and free will to acquire what we need to but those who have impediments through no fault of their own will not be held as responsible compared to those who were given much more. God is just so God will assist the former by His mercy, I cannot say what will happen to the latter.

God is just, and merciful.....but he is not sentimental. If humans do not obey his directives of their own free will, he has no use for them. There is no heaven or hell...there is just life or death. How we live in this world determines if we get to enjoy the new one.....this is what the Bible teaches, but humans have put their own terms of existence to the fore with no regard for God's word or his eternal purpose....which will go ahead with us or without us.

The apostle Peter goes on to say....
"Therefore, beloved ones, since you are awaiting these things, do your utmost to be found finally by him spotless and unblemished and in peace. 15 Furthermore, consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you according to the wisdom given him, 16 speaking about these things as he does in all his letters. However, some things in them are hard to understand, and these things the ignorant and unstable are twisting, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction."

Twisting the scriptures to suit our own wants and desires is not what will lead to life.

There is Truth in those scriptures and the message was carried forward, although it is no longer as harsh, heaven or hell, as there are intermediate states of being.

What intermediate states of being does the Bible speak of? I have never found any.

Thousands of years ago humans needed to be frightened into obedience to God because they were like small irascible children; but humanity as a whole has grown up and is at a spiritual level that enables them to understand why they should live good lives and love God... That might not include everyone because we are not there yet, where everyone knows and loves God, but we are way past the days of old when so many people disobeyed God.
That is almost laughable......look at the direction the world is going and tell me what humans are learning....:facepalm:
The majority of people these days are divorcing God in favor of secular pursuits and because there are no lightning bolts eliminating them from existence right away, King Solomon wrote......"Because sentence against a bad work has not been executed speedily, that is why the heart of the sons of men has become fully set in them to do bad.” (Ecclesiastes 8:11)

We are not there yet because the majority are going in the opposite direction....are you really expecting things to get better by the hand of men?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
That is why new scriptures do not read like the Old Testament, with an angry punishing God. Please note that the God portrayed by Jesus in the New Testament is a lot nicer and that is because humanity had progressed by the time Jesus came to earth.

What makes you think that Jesus' God is nicer than he was to Israel? As God's appointed judge, we have as much to fear from Jesus himself. He is yet to come as judge of all the world...and when he does, those who have not heeded his teachings will be the ones who will wish they had. Those who chose to suffer for their faith rather than give up on God, will reap the rewards, as Paul said......

"But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among you."

That is true, because those verses are referring to the physical body.

A physical body is all we were ever supposed to have. We were not created to die, which means that everlasting life in the flesh is what God intended for us from the beginning. Death only came because of sin. Jesus came to eliminate sin so that humanity could go back to God's original purpose. (Isaiah 55:11)

Aha, but that is not necessarily true, that God makes NO alterations. God doeth whatsoever He willeth because God is All-Powerful.

And he has already told us what he will "doeth" because he "willeth" it.
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He has set it all out in plain English, in his word. Funny how some people just can't understand plain English.

it is not as if God doesn’t help people, He just does it as His own behest and in His own time.

I agree. I have had many prayers answered myself in ways that just blew me away.

As you know, we disagree on what God will ultimately do, or rather as I believe what humans will do to build God’s Kingdom, but we all have our own beliefs, so we will just have to see how it pans out. I do not think either you or I will see that until long after we die, which of course means something different to you than it does to me. :D

It matters little to me if I see the fulfillment of God's promises later rather than sooner, but judging by the conditions of today's world, I cannot see the human race lasting much longer if there is no intervention. The Doomsday clock is set closer to midnight than it has ever been. When you have infantile leaders governing rogue nations out of fear, then a nuclear holocaust is just an insult away.

I can certainly agree with that and I like the prophecies of Isaiah very much. I just do not believe these prophecies will come to pass the same way you believe it will come to pass, but we will just have to wait and see, although I do not think you or I will see the Kingdom of God fully unfold within our lifetimes.

I see Isaiah's prophesies as totally real and absolutely achievable once the earth is cleansed of all wickedness.

King David wrote....
"Let go of anger and abandon rage;
Do not become upset and turn to doing evil.

9 For evil men will be done away with,

But those hoping in Jehovah will possess the earth.

10 Just a little while longer, and the wicked will be no more;

You will look at where they were, And they will not be there.

11 But the meek will possess the earth,
And they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace."


Jesus also said that "the meek shall inherit the earth" so I have reason to believe that the earth has always been in God's plans for humankind. We will go back to the way it was supposed to be.

I can understand about poverty in other countries and why they have so many children but I do not think the solution is just to have more children. The solution is to equalize wealth and that is one of the primary principles of the Baha’i Faith

That is also the basis for the ideologies of communism and socialism. They sound good on paper but in practice, they fall short. Human imperfection gets in the way.

Of course as you know, I do not believe we will ever go back to the Garden of Eden, and I do not believe that anyone will live forever on this earth in a resurrected body, but there will be much for future generations to look forward to because this world will be like a paradise in the distant future... In keeping with Isaiah 11:6-9....

The Bible says we will go back to the conditions of Eden......no death, no aging, no suffering, no pain. (Revelation 21:2-4) This will be on earth because all this is delivered from Jesus and his "bride" to "mankind".
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Trailblazer said: One reason we suffer in this world is because we are alienated from God

But then you say....

Trailblazer said: I do not believe in “The Fall”

Wait a sec. Then how did humans get "alienated from God"?
In brief, humans are born with two natures, their lower material nature (sin nature) and their higher spiritual nature that reflects the attributes of God. If they choose to follow their lower nature they become selfish and attached to the material world and thereby alienated from God.
And further, this understanding completely devalues Jesus' sacrifice.
This does not devalue Jesus’ sacrifice because Jesus’ teachings and cross sacrifice were necessary for us to overcome our sin nature and live according to our spiritual nature.

Jesus, the Word of God, gave us the profusion of His bounties and then died on the cross so we could be free of sin and attain everlasting life.

“…those who turned toward the Word of God and received the profusion of His bounties—were saved from this attachment and sin, obtained everlasting life, were delivered from the chains of bondage, and attained to the world of liberty. They were freed from the vices of the human world, and were blessed by the virtues of the Kingdom. This is the meaning of the words of Christ, “I gave My blood for the life of the world” 6 —that is to say, I have chosen all these troubles, these sufferings, calamities, and even the greatest martyrdom, to attain this object, the remission of sins” Some Answered Questions, p. 125
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
Those who study animals see some similarities in animal behaviour compared to humans, but it is very clearly demonstrated that no other creature possesses the mental capacity that humans have. If evolution is true, why do we not see anything close to the same level of development in much older creatures?

Perhaps mental capacity is not the only thing to measure our value or that of other species? The last sentence should be directed at a biologist, paleo-biologist, anthropologist or whatever is the appropriate field. I'm not an expert on evolution or any science field. We do know that there seem to be many species branching off the proto-human tree - Neanderthals, etc. - such that they appeared to become extinct (although we do have some Neanderthal genes in us of varying amounts), so that ultimately homo sapiens is what was left. We just were fitter for the environment than all others that might have dominated.

There is no living being on this planet that compares to us. On every continent on earth, man’s impact on his environment and in his defence of his ‘territory’, is felt like no other.

Think this is news to me?

Since I have no belief that evolution of this magnitude ever happened, there is no question to be asked.
Those who believe what scientist ‘theorize’ have swallowed an unproven and unprovable bit of wishful thinking. What science can prove is ‘adaptation’, which is not evolution, but adaptive change in single taxonomic families of creatures. There is no proof whatsoever that evolution, on the scale proposed by scientists is even possible.....despite their protestations. There is nothing to substantiate their claims. It’s all suggestion.

You being a JW, I can't help you with that, apart from mentioning that your belief is very much a minority view with regards the higher life on Earth - that is, most of the intellectuals and scientists, since the current theory of evolution is widely regarded as being essentially correct - although I am sure it is not all the truth.

Lucky? Are you hearing yourself? Science has nothing to do with luck. If you think so, then you have never investigated the real facts. If you believe that chance mutations and countless adaptive changes can transform one living creature into another, then you are a victim of the power of suggestion. All that can be proven is that varieties of the same creature are produced. There are as many missing links in the “chain” of evolution as there ever were.

What transforms one into another is that one dies out and the other survives - as a species. Have you actually looked at a species, like birds for example, where there are very small differences between essentially birds of the same type - finches, or humming-birds, etc. - some of these will just not survive as a species and some will. That is evolution.

The power of suggestion? I think that is what often occurs with religious beliefs more than anything else. If one doesn't see any creative force, such as a god, or planned evolution, as most scientists will (and I do too), then it is very much luck of the draw that we evolved to where we are rather than another species. Neanderthals or another close relative species, for example, might have made it as winners. It is likely that we did so because of our language skills and symbolic representation, so still down to luck.

"I truly don't see humans as being that significant in the larger scheme of things"

I can’t believe you can say that. The significance of humankind is that they alone possess the capacity to completely wipe out all life on this planet....over something as ridiculous as who is more powerful.....seriously.....not significant?! :eek:

What I meant is that when one considers the totality of the whole universe, which presumably you will admit from science - if not then it is pointless debating - then our galaxy, let alone our own star system, is insignificant in comparison to the rest. There are estimated to be between one and 30 billion Earth-sized planets in our galaxy alone, with hundreds of billions of galaxies existing. Our significance then? Just because we don't know of any similarly (relatively) intelligent life that doesn't mean that such life doesn't exist. It might be that we never actually come across intelligent life either, given the timescales and distances involved - which is why I am suspicious of the Fermi paradox incidentally.

The last part of that last sentence is the crux of all human belief and activity.
Its not “what”.....but “who” you believe.....and “why” you want to believe them. We all have to ask ourselves why we believe as we do. Who convinced us and what was the appeal? It is very telling.

Oh very true. I think we are in a completely different place with regards belief - you with a particular religious belief, and me with what makes sense to me. NO ONE made me believe anything, I decided on the knowledge available, which is assessed as being impartial, without an agenda, makes sense or doesn't, etc., and since I do come from an engineering background, have always had an interest in science and related matters, I have rarely felt the need to abandon such ways of understanding that which I hope reflects reality. And I am seldom disappointed. Being an engineer, I know I can trust the science, design correctly, ensure the product is manufactured correctly, and use it successfully if these procedures have all been carried out correctly. I am not an expert in most other areas but I trust that many are, so that these experts, often checked by other independent 'experts', do provide valid information and data as much as I can recognise in my own field. Like many I would think. You on the other hand are happy to believe stuff written so long ago by who know who and without any supporting evidence. Written material alone not being supporting evidence by the way.

Using the failure of religion to excuse the failure of science is a little indicative of where human intelligence, based on actual facts, can lead them. People have simply exchanged one unproven belief system for another. “Faith” plays a role in both.

If there is an Intelligent Designer of all things, who is standing back to observe what those unique human creatures (with whom he has endowed with his own qualities) are doing......what is he seeing?

Do you have faith in man to guarantee your future? I don’t. o_O

Without intervention by the Creator, humans will continue to trash this planet and find more heinous ways to kill each other. I am often ashamed to be a member of the human race. :(

All the rest there is just based on your theories and the theories which are religion. Most of us don't have any faith in science, we just recognise that science is the best means to reflect reality and religions are just unproven theories. We might be messing the planet up but unfortunately we don't have any role models - it's not as if we can point to another planet and say 'See, that is what we should be doing', just as many civilisations in the past died out perhaps because they were so isolated. Just because we seem to be making a mess now doesn't mean that things might not change.
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Perhaps mental capacity is not the only thing to measure our value or that of other species? The last sentence should be directed at a biologist, paleo-biologist, anthropologist or whatever is the appropriate field. I'm not an expert on evolution or any science field.

And you know, from having conversations with those who are schooled in these fields.....I find that they are as much in the dark as each other when it comes to answering questions like that. Ask them where "life" came from? How could it possibly arise spontaneously and transform itself from amoebas to dinosaurs? Ask them if all that we see on this planet could possibly be the result of random chance mutations and "natural selection" and you see nods in the affirmative....but ask how that is possible when they can't even explain how "life" began, seems like fairy tales to me. Its just that the fairy tales are couched in very high sounding "scientific" language.
Suggestion masquerading as fact doesn't prove a thing....except to those who want to believe it.

We do know that there seem to be many species branching off the proto-human tree - Neanderthals, etc. - such that they appeared to become extinct (although we do have some Neanderthal genes in us of varying amounts), so that ultimately homo sapiens is what was left. We just were fitter for the environment than all others that might have dominated.

There you have demonstrated what science does continually......things always "seem to be" because there is no way to prove any of it. Things are not always what they "seem" though...are they?
297.gif


What do you know about "Neanderthals" except what the scientists 'suggest' about them? Do fossils have a voice that science did not give them? Do scientists agree with each other?

Biologist Malcolm S. Gordon once wrote: “Life appears to have had many origins. The base of the universal tree of life appears not to have been a single root.”
Is there evidence that all the major branches of life are connected to a single trunk, as Darwin believed? Gordon continued: “The traditional version of the theory of common descent apparently does not apply to kingdoms as presently recognized. It probably does not apply to many, if not all, phyla, and possibly also not to many classes within the phyla.”

Recent research continues to contradict Darwin’s theory of common descent. For example, in 2009 an article in New Scientist magazine quoted evolutionary scientist Eric Bapteste as saying: “We have no evidence at all that the tree of life is a reality.” The same article quotes evolutionary biologist Michael Rose as saying: “The tree of life is being politely buried, we all know that. What’s less accepted is that our whole fundamental view of biology needs to change.”

This isn't meant to suggest that these scientists felt that theory of evolution is wrong. Their point, rather, is that Darwin’s proposed tree of life, a mainstay of his theory, is not supported by the evidence. Such scientists still seek other explanations involving evolution.

(Excerpt from Has All Life Descended From a Common Ancestor? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY)

So if science can't agree on many of its own ideas, and more research is undoing what was previously thought, why is it presenting evolution as if it were established fact? Nothing could be further from the truth.
But if you bring out this fact, watch for the vitriol to follow.
voodoodoll_2.gif
It is tantamount to blasphemy!

You being a JW, I can't help you with that, apart from mentioning that your belief is very much a minority view with regards the higher life on Earth - that is, most of the intellectuals and scientists, since the current theory of evolution is widely regarded as being essentially correct - although I am sure it is not all the truth.

The Bible answers that question by saying that God has never revealed himself to those whose egos placed them above him. Majorities have never meant much to the Creator....he would rather have an honest minority than an easily led majority. :oops:

I have never seen scientists present any substantiated evidence for macro-evolution....I have seen plenty of evidence for adaptation, however. Adaptation is seen in small changes in color, shape, size or whatever would have benefited the creature's survival in a new environment. Science takes what it can prove, and blows it all out of proportion with suggestions about what it can't prove.....but you knew that...right? Suggestions cannot become facts without proof.....science does not have any proof.

What transforms one into another is that one dies out and the other survives - as a species. Have you actually looked at a species, like birds for example, where there are very small differences between essentially birds of the same type - finches, or humming-birds, etc. - some of these will just not survive as a species and some will. That is evolution.

No, I'm sorry but that is adaptation. Darwin's finches remained finches....the tortoises were still tortoises and the iguanas, despite becoming adept at a marine existence...were still clearly iguanas. The taxonomy had not changed. These were merely different varieties of the same families as their mainland cousins. Their reproductive abilities did not alter that fact.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
The power of suggestion? I think that is what often occurs with religious beliefs more than anything else.

Isn't it funny that we humans can see things in others that we refuse to see in ourselves? If there were no suggestions in science, then evolution would never have gained any momentum. It cannot be proven to have ever taken place except in the suggestions of the scientists who desperately want it to be true and interpret all their "evidence" to support it. They have wonderful charts and graphics...but not much else.

If one doesn't see any creative force, such as a god, or planned evolution, as most scientists will (and I do too), then it is very much luck of the draw that we evolved to where we are rather than another species.

One will see what one wants to see.....just as computers are not flukes of nature, so creatures with biological components that are very complex (all designed to work together) cannot be flukes either. Good grief!...a mousetrap is simply bits of useless stuff unless someone with a modicum of intelligence assembles them in the correct sequence. One piece out of place would render it useless. What science is suggesting defies logic IMO.

It is likely that we did so because of our language skills and symbolic representation, so still down to luck.

Language is one of our greatest gifts. Is it just luck that we as a species have ability to communicate verbally as well as with written language? We also have ability to learn sign language and to communicate non verbally. Apes can be taught rudimentary sign language by humans but they could not initiate it by themselves.

We alone can transfer images from our sight (another monumental fluke if what you believe is true) process them through our brain and then put them on a canvas and enjoy it as a work of art...what survival advantage is there in art....or music...or theatre...or poetry?

There are estimated to be between one and 30 billion Earth-sized planets in our galaxy alone, with hundreds of billions of galaxies existing. Our significance then? Just because we don't know of any similarly (relatively) intelligent life that doesn't mean that such life doesn't exist. It might be that we never actually come across intelligent life either, given the timescales and distances involved

No doubt about it...it's a vast universe....and our solar system is insignificant by comparison....but what if the Creator has plans to populate planets all over the place in the infinite future? He had to start somewhere....why not here? Its a "Goldilocks" planet that he specifically prepared for habitation. Without that preparation, this earth would still be "formless and waste" with nothing conducive to the emergence of life. There is so much that science glosses over, pretending that those question are irrelevant, but it really knows nothing. It relies on distractions, not truth.

NO ONE made me believe anything, I decided on the knowledge available, which is assessed as being impartial, without an agenda, makes sense or doesn't, etc., and since I do come from an engineering background, have always had an interest in science and related matters, I have rarely felt the need to abandon such ways of understanding that which I hope reflects reality. And I am seldom disappointed.

You're right.....we are all individuals with our own thought processes and evaluations of things. I believe that all of us are telling the Creator all about ourselves by what we choose to believe and why we choose to believe it. That way, we cannot blame the Creator if he chooses not to have us around for eternity. We will all be caught in the act of being ourselves.

Being an engineer, I know I can trust the science, design correctly, ensure the product is manufactured correctly, and use it successfully if these procedures have all been carried out correctly. I am not an expert in most other areas but I trust that many are, so that these experts, often checked by other independent 'experts', do provide valid information and data as much as I can recognise in my own field. Like many I would think. You on the other hand are happy to believe stuff written so long ago by who know who and without any supporting evidence. Written material alone not being supporting evidence by the way.

Being an engineer should make you more mindful of how things work and how many things that are expertly engineered demonstrate the skill of the one creating them. If something is badly designed, it will fail in time. Does good design just happen?

To my way of thinking, if something is from the Creator, it will never go "out of date" in principle. I don't know what supporting evidence you need to see that the Bible is a handbook form our manufacturer. If all else fails...read the instructions!

I have the same kind of faith in my Creator that you have in scientists. One of us is going to be very disappointed I think.

Most of us don't have any faith in science, we just recognise that science is the best means to reflect reality and religions are just unproven theories.

But you do have a great deal of faith in science. Because you believe what they cannot prove, you exhibit faith. Evolution is a belief system just as ID is a belief system. The "best method" is proving to be not good enough if science has to change its tune to keep up with current discoveries. The truth does not change...human ideas do.

When the Bible touches on matters of science it is completely correct. e.g....how did the writer of Genesis know that the planet was "formless and waste" before God began to modify its landscape? How did he know that life (sentient life) began in the oceans and that man was the last to arrive?

How did the writer of Job know that the earth is suspended in space when gravity was unknown? (Job 26:7)

The prophet Isaiah spoke of the "circle" of the earth (the Hebrew word can mean a sphere) (Isaiah 40:22)
All these things were unheard of by humans and only made sense in recent centuries as telescopes and other inventions allowed men to peer into space and into the past. Only when humans became so enamored with themselves did they lose their need for God...to become gods themselves.

If God were to manifest himself in the near future, what would you think of your current beliefs? :shrug:
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Recent research continues to contradict Darwin’s theory of common descent. For example, in 2009 an article in New Scientist magazine quoted evolutionary scientist Eric Bapteste as saying:
I am very busy right now but I have skimmed some of your posts going back and forth so I just wanted to say one thing for now... Baha'is believe in evolution but we believe that humans were always a separate species from the other animals, so we are not a mutation from animals. What makes humans unique is that we have always had a soul and other animals do not have a soul. It is the soul that enables us to know and love God.

I have been meaning to get back to your posts to me all day... I might not get them today but I will. :)
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
And you know, from having conversations with those who are schooled in these fields.....I find that they are as much in the dark as each other when it comes to answering questions like that. Ask them where "life" came from? How could it possibly arise spontaneously and transform itself from amoebas to dinosaurs? Ask them if all that we see on this planet could possibly be the result of random chance mutations and "natural selection" and you see nods in the affirmative....but ask how that is possible when they can't even explain how "life" began, seems like fairy tales to me. Its just that the fairy tales are couched in very high sounding "scientific" language.
Suggestion masquerading as fact doesn't prove a thing....except to those who want to believe it.

Not being a scientist, or having any background in the relevant sciences, I am not in a position to answer any questions as to how or why life came into being - and neither are you, unless you simply believe what someone wrote a long time ago when they didn't even have proper knowledge concerning even the basics of existence. Science continually strives to find answers that reflect reality. Religions are just stuck with what was written then and mostly just adapt to reflect any discrepancies that arise over time. I know which I trust. Fairy tales are the province of religions.


There you have demonstrated what science does continually......things always "seem to be" because there is no way to prove any of it. Things are not always what they "seem" though...are they?
297.gif

And proof comes from religions? Much of science can't be conclusively proved - the very existence of what surrounds us in life today is proof that the basis of science (and technology) is sound, unless you believe your computer operates by magic.

What do you know about "Neanderthals" except what the scientists 'suggest' about them? Do fossils have a voice that science did not give them? Do scientists agree with each other?

The past is a an unknown place in many instances. We undoubtedly have a long way to go, if even possible, to fully understand how we got o be the humans that we are today. And this is mainly because the fossil record is simply not continuous, and why would we expect it to be. Life isn't so simple.

Biologist Malcolm S. Gordon once wrote: “Life appears to have had many origins. The base of the universal tree of life appears not to have been a single root.”
Is there evidence that all the major branches of life are connected to a single trunk, as Darwin believed? Gordon continued: “The traditional version of the theory of common descent apparently does not apply to kingdoms as presently recognized. It probably does not apply to many, if not all, phyla, and possibly also not to many classes within the phyla.”

Recent research continues to contradict Darwin’s theory of common descent. For example, in 2009 an article in New Scientist magazine quoted evolutionary scientist Eric Bapteste as saying: “We have no evidence at all that the tree of life is a reality.” The same article quotes evolutionary biologist Michael Rose as saying: “The tree of life is being politely buried, we all know that. What’s less accepted is that our whole fundamental view of biology needs to change.”

This isn't meant to suggest that these scientists felt that theory of evolution is wrong. Their point, rather, is that Darwin’s proposed tree of life, a mainstay of his theory, is not supported by the evidence. Such scientists still seek other explanations involving evolution.

Not really that useful to quote a few who might have rather different views than the consensus view. The consensus is generally in agreement, but undoubtedly we have not even found all our cousins yet:

Primate - Wikipedia
Homo - Wikipedia

(Excerpt from Has All Life Descended From a Common Ancestor? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY)

So if science can't agree on many of its own ideas, and more research is undoing what was previously thought, why is it presenting evolution as if it were established fact? Nothing could be further from the truth.
But if you bring out this fact, watch for the vitriol to follow.
voodoodoll_2.gif
It is tantamount to blasphemy!

Few expect science or scientists to be in agreement, only a fool would expect this. We could look at virtually every sphere of science to see this happening but this doesn't detract from the fact that there is no other method of determining such truths. The various fields of science tend towards an asymptotic curve, with some areas obviously closer to reality than others, and perhaps we are not sure exactly where we lie on the curve in many cases. And the alternative to this is?

The Bible answers that question by saying that God has never revealed himself to those whose egos placed them above him. Majorities have never meant much to the Creator....he would rather have an honest minority than an easily led majority. :oops:

Fine. If you are happy with this then don't even bother studying science since you will constantly come up against a brick wall, much as, it seems, those without a religious belief constantly have to do with the religious.

I have never seen scientists present any substantiated evidence for macro-evolution....I have seen plenty of evidence for adaptation, however. Adaptation is seen in small changes in color, shape, size or whatever would have benefited the creature's survival in a new environment. Science takes what it can prove, and blows it all out of proportion with suggestions about what it can't prove.....but you knew that...right? Suggestions cannot become facts without proof.....science does not have any proof.

Believe what you want.

No, I'm sorry but that is adaptation. Darwin's finches remained finches....the tortoises were still tortoises and the iguanas, despite becoming adept at a marine existence...were still clearly iguanas. The taxonomy had not changed. These were merely different varieties of the same families as their mainland cousins. Their reproductive abilities did not alter that fact.

I wasn't going to get into the details of evolution theory. Last time I read Darwin's works was several decades ago and nothing since has seriously challenged the overall theory. There have even been examples of evolution in action being seen in very short-lived species so as to essentially corroborate the theory. There might be many areas where the theory needs refining but it is still essentially the best we have so far.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
Isn't it funny that we humans can see things in others that we refuse to see in ourselves? If there were no suggestions in science, then evolution would never have gained any momentum. It cannot be proven to have ever taken place except in the suggestions of the scientists who desperately want it to be true and interpret all their "evidence" to support it. They have wonderful charts and graphics...but not much else.

This is complete twaddle. If Darwin (and Wallace) hadn't come up with the theory of evolution at the time then it would have undoubtedly appeared at some time later by someone else proposing this. That is the nature of knowledge - it tends to out itself because relevant information, when combined, just does this - people form new theories based on insights and all available knowledge. Numerous examples of this happening - Wallace and Darwin are examples, apparently coming up with much the same conclusions independently.

One will see what one wants to see.....just as computers are not flukes of nature, so creatures with biological components that are very complex (all designed to work together) cannot be flukes either. Good grief!...a mousetrap is simply bits of useless stuff unless someone with a modicum of intelligence assembles them in the correct sequence. One piece out of place would render it useless. What science is suggesting defies logic IMO.

Stick to religion then, since that is precisely what you have described - the piece being in your case, the very existence of God, where if this was not true then your whole argument falls flat on its face.

Language is one of our greatest gifts. Is it just luck that we as a species have ability to communicate verbally as well as with written language? We also have ability to learn sign language and to communicate non verbally. Apes can be taught rudimentary sign language by humans but they could not initiate it by themselves.

Gift? Probably the reason why we are here as a species. Language learning in nearly all other species has essentially two problems, the physical nature of their means of producing speech and the brain areas associated with language. Lacking either or both might mean that they could never communicate as effectively as us but that doesn't rule out some progress in this area. I haven't looked at language learning in our closest primate cousins for some years but I believe it was Kanzi that did demonstrate the last thing mentioned - initiating a communication, as in sentence structure rather than just associating symbols with objects.


No doubt about it...it's a vast universe....and our solar system is insignificant by comparison....but what if the Creator has plans to populate planets all over the place in the infinite future? He had to start somewhere....why not here? Its a "Goldilocks" planet that he specifically prepared for habitation. Without that preparation, this earth would still be "formless and waste" with nothing conducive to the emergence of life. There is so much that science glosses over, pretending that those question are irrelevant, but it really knows nothing. It relies on distractions, not truth.

Purrlease - it's only in the last few decades that we have even discovered that planets are extremely common, even probably ones very much like Earth. We have a long way to go yet too. The creator has taken 13 billion years to produce the universe, and just for us (or to initiate the seeding of further life)? I have serous doubts about this, and hence my view that we actually are just not that significant. We are the only example of intelligent life that we know of so it is entirely understandable why we would think we were the centre of the universe - perhaps we are just not.

Being an engineer should make you more mindful of how things work and how many things that are expertly engineered demonstrate the skill of the one creating them. If something is badly designed, it will fail in time. Does good design just happen?

To my way of thinking, if something is from the Creator, it will never go "out of date" in principle. I don't know what supporting evidence you need to see that the Bible is a handbook form our manufacturer. If all else fails...read the instructions!

I have the same kind of faith in my Creator that you have in scientists. One of us is going to be very disappointed I think.

Good design comes from good knowledge and good design principles. The handbook was written when knowledge was not something easily available, and hardly to all. We were essentially ignorant in most ways and no doubt many had their reasons for producing the Bible, but why then did we need so many other conflicting works? Hardly makes sense. I have disappointment written on my face constantly - and I think many would realise why.

But you do have a great deal of faith in science. Because you believe what they cannot prove, you exhibit faith. Evolution is a belief system just as ID is a belief system. The "best method" is proving to be not good enough if science has to change its tune to keep up with current discoveries. The truth does not change...human ideas do.

Not true. You have the same 'faith' in science as I do - it's just that you have an additional, and unnecessary one.

When the Bible touches on matters of science it is completely correct. e.g....how did the writer of Genesis know that the planet was "formless and waste" before God began to modify its landscape? How did he know that life (sentient life) began in the oceans and that man was the last to arrive?

How did the writer of Job know that the earth is suspended in space when gravity was unknown? (Job 26:7)

The prophet Isaiah spoke of the "circle" of the earth (the Hebrew word can mean a sphere) (Isaiah 40:22)
All these things were unheard of by humans and only made sense in recent centuries as telescopes and other inventions allowed men to peer into space and into the past. Only when humans became so enamored with themselves did they lose their need for God...to become gods themselves.

If God were to manifest himself in the near future, what would you think of your current beliefs? :shrug:

God made the Earth in seven days - why not quote that bit - after all, the Bible is completely correct. Some guesses are correct, some are not. The Bible is often either cited as being essentially factual or as an allegory so that the messages are more guidance than to be held to be factual. Which is it? The splits in all the various faiths point to the fact that when they were written there was no essential truth - just a lot of theories. Some are still relevant today - the moral values, for example - the rest has to be treated with scepticism.

If God was to manifest him or herself in the near future I might have some questions to ask. Like why all the rest of life, that often is determined to survive and in the process bring about our death. And what makes us so deserving to live when by doing so we almost certainly have to trample all over the rights of other life - by eating either plants and/or animals.

PS I was born shortly after the end of WWII. I have been reading and researching many areas for much of my life, not in the religious arena so much but I have done enough, such that many areas will not exactly be fresh in my memory. I still follow those areas that seem important to me, especially advances in science, but as might be expected of someone my age, I'm not that keen to go over that which I imbibed many decades ago - especially rereading stuff that is not in my possession. Plus the fact that I'm an oldie and trying to preserve as much of my brain as possible given the deterioration to be likely. :p
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Science continually strives to find answers that reflect reality. Religions are just stuck with what was written then and mostly just adapt to reflect any discrepancies that arise over time. I know which I trust. Fairy tales are the province of religions.

You don't seem to understand that science is grasping at straws to prop up its theory. Even revered men of science rely on guesswork because its all they have.
Like all scientists, Albert Einstein e.g. proposed his theory in language that was almost inviting a better mind to correct him. Science has to be stated in a maybe/probably format because a discovery made tomorrow "might suggest" or "could in all probability" mean that they were wrong about what they first "assumed".

As I have always said, don't treat this theory as fact, because we all know that there are no concrete facts....it is as close as they can 'guesstimate'.....whilst downplaying even the possibility of a powerful intelligence behind any of it.
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When you dismiss ID because there is no proof of an all powerful Creator, but replace it with another scenario which is equally without proof, you simply exchange one faith based belief system, for another. So who has the better fairy tale? We decide for our own reasons.

And proof comes from religions? Much of science can't be conclusively proved - the very existence of what surrounds us in life today is proof that the basis of science (and technology) is sound, unless you believe your computer operates by magic.

We all know that computers need educated designers, with fully functioning components that are all designed to work in conjunction with each other from the get go, and they rely on a source of power that comes from another independently designed system. The internet is also intelligently designed by men with advanced knowledge. Each work with the other and are perfectly integrated, but not by chance. Men with intelligence had to make a way for them to work together.

Is it all magic? We all know that it requires intelligence and ingenuity to develop those systems....yet you believe that the human organism with a brain that can outstrip any man made computer system of equivalent size, just designed itself.....no intelligent direction required...
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and that is not to mention all the other biological systems that work together to keep our bodies functioning. One of us has a fairy story.....

And this is mainly because the fossil record is simply not continuous, and why would we expect it to be. Life isn't so simple.

Fossils can only tell a story that their 'ventriloquists' plucked from their imagination. They cannot speak for themselves and the men speaking for them have put lies in their mouths.

We could look at virtually every sphere of science to see this happening but this doesn't detract from the fact that there is no other method of determining such truths. The various fields of science tend towards an asymptotic curve, with some areas obviously closer to reality than others, and perhaps we are not sure exactly where we lie on the curve in many cases. And the alternative to this is?

The logical conclusion for me when I see clever design, is to assume an intelligent designer, and give them credit.....nothing I am acquainted with in life tells me that things can be designed for a specific purpose by blind chance. Design is obvious in nature and design denotes purpose...purpose needs intelligence, so the conclusion is not rocket science.....it is just logical.

Does it matter if I can't see the Designer? Does it matter that I can't see the wind or magnetism? I see what they do and I know they exist because of their actions. Does science assume that invisible things can't exist? Then why assume that an Intelligent Designer doesn't exist? Why rule him out and ridicule people who disbelieve their alternative explanation?

If you are happy with this then don't even bother studying science since you will constantly come up against a brick wall, much as, it seems, those without a religious belief constantly have to do with the religious.

You ignore the fact that science doesn't automatically = truth. Saying "I think" is a whole lot different to saying "I know". What does science really "know" as opposed to what they "assume". If you wish to accept what someone "thinks" "might have" happened....that is up to you. I will place my faith on firmer ground.

I am not a YEC but a believer in something much more realistic....a scenario that allows both science AND the Bible to be true.

There might be many areas where the theory needs refining but it is still essentially the best we have so far.

Oh dear......if that is the best men can come up with.....its hardly something to bet your life on, is it?

Believe what you want.

And that is the crux of the whole matter......God allows us to believe whatever we want. We will all ultimately reap what we have sown. Thinking we have planted tomatoes when someone switched them for brussell sprouts is going to lead to disappointment...especially if we hate brussell sprouts.
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Wallace and Darwin are examples, apparently coming up with much the same conclusions independently.

According to the Bible, they each reached a conclusion that came from outside their own thinking.....each was influenced by the same idea....so you are right....this idea would have surfaced sooner or later as men mulled over the possibilities that adaptation might lead to......no God.

Initially it was thought that God might have used this evolutionary process, but as they advanced their ideas even further, God gradually disappeared altogether for the majority.

Stick to religion then, since that is precisely what you have described - the piece being in your case, the very existence of God, where if this was not true then your whole argument falls flat on its face.

It doesn't take much intelligence to see God's hand in the workings of nature. All it takes is 'eyes' to see and a mind that is not blind. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)

I haven't looked at language learning in our closest primate cousins for some years but I believe it was Kanzi that did demonstrate the last thing mentioned - initiating a communication, as in sentence structure rather than just associating symbols with objects.

Again, nothing that apes would have come up with on their own. Monkey see, monkey do. They do have a measure of intelligence but the chasm between us and them, is unbridgeable.

The creator has taken 13 billion years to produce the universe, and just for us (or to initiate the seeding of further life)? I have serous doubts about this, and hence my view that we actually are just not that significant. We are the only example of intelligent life that we know of so it is entirely understandable why we would think we were the centre of the universe - perhaps we are just not.

Time is irrelevant to a Being who inhabits a timeless realm. What is time to an earth dweller? Isn't it merely the rotation of the planet and its journey around the sun? What does that have to do with extra-terrestrials?

Good design comes from good knowledge and good design principles.

Exactly.....good design is not explainable without that knowledge and principles. If there is purpose for the design, then intelligence directed it. How is that not logical?

The handbook was written when knowledge was not something easily available, and hardly to all. We were essentially ignorant in most ways and no doubt many had their reasons for producing the Bible, but why then did we need so many other conflicting works? Hardly makes sense. I have disappointment written on my face constantly - and I think many would realise why.

The handbook was not written as a science textbook. But when it touches matters of science, it is very accurate....that is knowledge that humans could not have gained on their own. The Bible as a message from the Creator is designed to help us to make decisions in life. His interaction with Israel shows us his patience and commitment to a promise, despite the fact that his chosen nation broke their agreement many times.

What other "conflicting works" did God give to mankind? There is only one Bible and it has one message for all.

If you are disappointed with what "Christendom" is doing, then don't you think his own disappointment is worse?
History is repeating because humans are stubborn and will not take correction. There is a reason why Jesus said we had to be like "young children".....they are meek and teachable with no pre-conceived ideas of their own to get in the way. We are our own worst enemies. :(

You have the same 'faith' in science as I do - it's just that you have an additional, and unnecessary one.

It is only 'unnecessary' to those who do not know God, and who don't want to know him.
Those who genuinely seek him out on his terms, will find him.

God made the Earth in seven days - why not quote that bit - after all, the Bible is completely correct.

God made the earth and all the universe in one "big bang"....science knows this. How long it took God to choose this planet when he could have chosen any other is not stated....but we know it had all the things necessary once he prepared it for habitation.
The creative periods were not literal 24 hour 'days'. The word used in Hebrew can mean an undetermined period of time, with a stated beginning and end....and since time is irrelevant to the Creator, his 'project' could well have taken millions of years. Without time constraints, creation could well have been a slow and very deliberate process.

The Creator gave this earth an atmosphere and planted vegetation early in the process to provide oxygen for other living things that would come later. Each "day" had its own agenda and each one was concluded with a measure of satisfaction with what was accomplished. It is all accomplished in logical order.

The Bible is often either cited as being essentially factual or as an allegory so that the messages are more guidance than to be held to be factual. Which is it? The splits in all the various faiths point to the fact that when they were written there was no essential truth - just a lot of theories.

When the Bible is read apart from Christendom's teachings, you would be surprised how much sense it makes.
The "splits" in the various faiths was foretold long ago. What happened to Judaism, was predicted to happen also in Christianity....most people don't know that. Corruption is never far away when men deviate from the word of God and inject their own ideas.

If God was to manifest him or herself in the near future I might have some questions to ask. Like why all the rest of life, that often is determined to survive and in the process bring about our death. And what makes us so deserving to live when by doing so we almost certainly have to trample all over the rights of other life - by eating either plants and/or animals.

Looking at things from God's perspective is enlightening. He created a food source for all living things. Material beings, (unlike spirit creatures) need food and water to replenish their bodies and to sustain their lives. They need air to breathe and mates to perpetuate their species. They need sleep to recharge their 'batteries' and all of these things are a natural part of their existence. None of them have to force themselves to do any of it. What they needed to live was provided long before they got here.

PS I was born shortly after the end of WWII.
I am of a similar vintage.
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My body is reminding me of my age but my mind is sharp because I am constantly researching things....in both the spheres of science and religion...or should I say the Bible, as I prefer to separate what the churches teach from what the Bible teaches. Never the twain shall meet.

I have been reading and researching many areas for much of my life, not in the religious arena so much but I have done enough, such that many areas will not exactly be fresh in my memory.

So you dismissed religion quite early in your life then...? For what reasons may I ask?

I still follow those areas that seem important to me, especially advances in science, but as might be expected of someone my age, I'm not that keen to go over that which I imbibed many decades ago - especially rereading stuff that is not in my possession. Plus the fact that I'm an oldie and trying to preserve as much of my brain as possible given the deterioration to be likely. :p

I hear you. My first exposure to evolution in the early 60's at high school had a great impact on my life. It led me to question what I was taught in church and at Sunday School which I attended every week.

A tragic event led me to question everything, and I began a quest to make sense of all that I had been taught, both in science and in religion. I explored many religions as well as peering into the "evidence" for science's version of events. What I discovered was amazing.....all of it was nonsense. There was no truth to be found in either...so I found myself feeling very lost and confused..... completely disillusioned.

Very soon after there was a knock at my door, and you can guess who was there. I felt somewhat angry and hurled sarcastic questions at these people who had turned up uninvited to tell me about God. But every question I asked, they turned up the Bible to answer. I was so intrigued by their answers that I allowed them to come back and I ended up studying the Bible in depth with them for two solid years before I committed myself to become one of them.

Things are not always as they seem.....and sometime the truth hides in places we never think to look.

Our age should not get in the way of finding the truth.....I believe that these are exciting times from the Bible's perspective, but I see nothing good happening to godless humanity, and science is not addressing the problems it has caused through its thoughtless actions. This planet is in a sad and sorry state because of science's contribution. Pollution of the air, oceans, soil and water has a reached a point where it is not reversible. Man is making no real effort to clean up his mess. This planet is treated as a dumping ground for man made poisons.

Our food is not nourishing us and the western world is drowning in its own fat. Where will science take us? Anywhere we really want to go? Are we jumping or are we being pushed into a future that is somewhat frightening especially for us older ones?

What future do you see realistically? :shrug:
 
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